Todays guest is Lubbok Tx Family and Portrait photographer Cris Duncan. Cris's work displays incredible use of lighting and today I look forward to learning more about how he sees the world and masters light.

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In This Episode You'll Learn:

• Checklist for a great image

• How Cris got his start in photography

• The hardest part of photography to learn when Cris got started

• Where Cris’s love for lighting started

• Why Lighting is so important

• What to look for to find the best light, natural or artificial

• How new photographers get lighting wrong

• Where to start with getting into lighting equipment

• How Cris had to make do with what he had when he first started

Premium Members Also Learn:

• How lighting can increase your sales

• How to break past the $75 price point when starting out shooting portraits

• How to make clients feel special when working with them

Resources:

• Cris Duncans Website

Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

Full Episode Transcription:

Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically by Temi.com and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.

Raymond: 00:00 Welcome to the beginniner photography podcast. Today we're taking your photos to flavor town, let's get into it. Intro: 00:08 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast, a weekly podcast for those who believe that moments matter most and that a beautiful photo is more than just a sum of its settings, a show for those who want to do more with the gear they have to take better photos today. And now your host Raymond Hatfield

Raymond: 00:27 Oh, welcome back to this episode of the beginner photography podcast. I'm your host Raymond Hatfield and we've got a great episode today. Today we're talking all about lighting with today's guest. Cris Duncan lighting is one of those things that you know, photography is essentially just being able to capture and control light. So lighting is just a really important subject and I feel like we don't really give it as much attention as we should. We focus a lot more on gear than we do on lighting. So today, again, really, really fun episode and I know that you're going to pick up a lot from it. But first I want to give a special shout out to Aliyah for leaving the podcast, a five star, a review in iTunes, iTunes review. There we go. So Aaliyah says, I want it to be able to listen to something that would help me improve my photography when I'm not physically taking photos or editing.

Raymond: 01:19 So I listen while I'm at work and the podcast helps me stay motivated and inspired. I love hearing from all kinds of photographers even once, I wouldn't personally shoot myself. Mahalo, Aliyah, Aliyah. Again, thank you so much for leaving the podcast they review it truly is a fantastic way to help out the podcast and helps it just get found by, by more people and as well as increase the legitimacy for a lot of guests as well. So again, Leah, thank you so much. So before we get on into today's interview, I want to let you know that as always, I have reserved a portion of the interview that is focused on making money with your camera. Just for premium members. And there's a lot in this episode for premium members today. So premium members are going to hear how learning to light can actually increase your sales, why Chris was able to break past that elusive $75 price point for portraits when so many struggle to do so and some great really practical tips on how to make clients feel special when working with them.

Raymond: 02:25 So if you are interested in becoming a premium member and you want to hear these answers from Chris as well as answers from past guests on how they use their camera to make money, then become a premium member by heading over to beginner photography, podcast.com and clicking the premium membership button at the top of the page. So that is it. With that, let's go ahead. We're going to keep this nice and short into today's episode with Cris Duncan. Today's guest is Lubbock, Texas family and portrait photographer Cris Duncan. Cris's work displays, use of lighting. And today I look forward to learning more about how Cris sees the world and how he masters the light. Cris, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Cris Duncan: 03:08 Thank you, Raymond. I'm excited to be here. I appreciate you asking me to spend some time today with you.

Raymond: 03:14 Of course. Of course. Now that I hear, I just grabbed this remote here and just changed all my lighting around. Sorry about that. Yeah, I'm super excited about talking with you today because when it comes to lighting, lighting is a topic that many beginners completely get lost in, right when we first get that camera, we get so excited about the potential of that camera itself that we almost look past lighting entirely. And then when we get to the point to where we realize that lighting is important, we feel lost. We feel like we're starting all over again. So again, I'm really excited to chat with you today, but before we get into talking about lighting, can you share with us how it is that you got your start in photography in the first place?

Cris Duncan: 03:57 Man, that's a big question to start off with. I think, I find like I'm similar to a lot of people I talked to around the industry and in the areas that we visit is started as something we just love to do as a hobby or a passion or a craft or a something we did on the side. And that I just, something I like to do and that just kind of grew out of that. I didn't, I wasn't a high school newspaper photographer or anything like that. My grandmother was a painter, my grandfather was a taxidermist, but he did a lot of photography as reference for his taxidermy. So, and then reference from my grandmother's paintings. So they, they were, they were photographers in that sense, but not like studio owners or professionals. And just growing up, just experimenting more and more and finally learning about different educational opportunities. And before you know it, here we are 25 years later and it's our livelihood and it's what we do. And so,

Raymond: 05:00 Okay. I want to go back there for a second because it seems like whenever I talk to somebody, it always starts with, well, I started off with a camera. Here we are 25 years later. This is what we do, and I skipped a lot of this. Something in between there. There's something in between there, something that I want to, but I'm always fascinated by, which is more of, you know, so many people pick up a camera and they decide, well this is really challenging or or, or, or a host of other issues and then they just put it away. You know, there's something, what was it about photography in the beginning that, what's something that you struggled with when you first started?

Cris Duncan: 05:41 Well, in the beginning, what struck my interest in it is of all places where I picked it up was in seventh grade industrial arts class, which is Sean and insight, at least in Texas in seventh grade you had to do a little woodworking project and then we did a little metal woodworking project and then you know, some welding. We had lots of different parts of those trades and one of them was photography and we had to create an image. And because that time it was dark room and film. And if you've never experienced that feeling of seeing a blank piece of paper turn into something through the chemicals, and I'm sure a lot of your listeners maybe have not had that experience. That is, it's pretty cool. And at that time that was like, this is, this is amazing. And so that was super thrilling and just exhilarating because you didn't know what you had really until you got to that point.

Cris Duncan: 06:36 So that's what really piqued my interest. Moving forward, I just kind of picked up a camera, get to photograph some more you know, pictures of my feet and my dog and the trees and everything. I could point it out, I would take a picture of. And finally when we get to college that's what I wanted to major in. And I had a girlfriend at the time that said, no, you really need a real major. And how at that point, yeah. Ouch. So at that point I was mowing lawns like a lot of high school kids do to make money. And I said, well go to horticulture plant and soil science, which I hate it if you're a horticulturalist, listen to this. And I hate it. I still like working in my yard. And I like knowing the grass and I like cleaning up and having a pretty yard.

Cris Duncan: 07:19 But I hated that, that course. And so I did some photography classes as electives. Fast forward after college, I'm about to marry this girl, we do get married and we're still married, so it's still the same one. And I said, I think we should do photography and open a business. And she goes, no, you need a real job. And that sounds harsh, that sounds harsh. But in her defense, she would babysit for a family when, when she was at college in another city and the family she babysat for was a photographer and all she saw were past due notices and light bills and them always gone. And so she saw a different side of it, you know. And that was her initial perception. Like, if you're a photographer, you're never home. You work all the time and you don't make any money. And so that was her perception and unfortunately that may be some people's reality and hopefully we can, you know, through some, through some education and some hard work, you can get to that point where that's not the case. So so I had, I had a real job for awhile and in 2000 and twos when we opened our business, I went full time in 2008 and we've both been full time since then. And this is, this is what we do. It's all we do. We're 100% in. So,

Raymond: 08:39 So she joined with you, she became part of the business after all of that tango? No, no, no, no. This isn't going to work out. She became part of it. Yeah. Yeah.

Cris Duncan: 08:47 She's the she was the first one to go full time. There was some life circumstances and I was working with my dad. He had an injury. I had go back and help him. She stepped in. You know, that might be a story we can get to later. But yeah, she was the first full time. So irony is pretty funny and the way it worked out now she's a driving force behind our business and what nearly be where we are today if it wasn't for Deanna.

Raymond: 09:12 Oh, that's great to hear. That's great to hear. So obviously in the beginning we talked a little bit about lighting and kind of its importance. So at some point I want to know more about that, that learning experience for you when it came to learning lighting. When did you when did you realize its power and when did you decide to, to, to really explore all of all of its possibilities?

Cris Duncan: 09:37 I think when we, when we opened, we were digital. We didn't open with film. We've always been digital media as professionals. And of course you get that instant feedback. I remember like, man, this is, this one looks good, this one doesn't look good, this one doesn't seem right, this one's too dark, this one's too bright. And I felt like I knew where it needed to be. I didn't know how to get it there. And so that was really frustrating. And in 2007, we went to imaging USA, which was in San Antonio, Texas. And went to the print display. If you've been to imaging USA, they have their image competition and they have print set up. People that were entered that competition were accepted and I immediately saw a difference. And that work in mind, I mean, it was, it was palatable. It was noticeable, like not, it wasn't like, why is this good?

Cris Duncan: 10:25 It was like, I just know this is good. And at that point I said, I've got to figure out this lining. I've got to learn. I don't want to be frustrated with it. And that was, that was me. And you think of your kid trying to ride their bike, you know, they're frustrated and they fall down and they get back up and they're just so frustrated. And when they finally get it, they, it's second nature to ride their bike again. Right. They don't even have an, I wanted to get to that point where my lining became second nature. So I could focus on the narrative and not the technical.

Raymond: 10:58 So how was it that you knew, I guess right in that moment, I suppose. So you're looking at all these other photos and you see that, that there's that difference. You know, you didn't know how to get it, you knew what it was. But where did you start personally with lighting? I mean there's, there's a lot of different places to go. So did you start with strobes? Did you start with natural light and then how did it build from there?

Cris Duncan: 11:22 No, I, I'd always, I mean we went to the store and bought strobes. Like the day we opened, we started with strobes and, and flashes and stuff and some natural lighting. And the reason is that's what I'd seen when I had my senior pictures made. That's what the photographer used, you know, are these umbrellas and different things. And when we got married, that's what the photographer used. So that's natural as I go, that's where I need to go. That's what they're using. But how, to answer your first question, how I knew, I use this analogy a lot when I teach and so forgive me for if I kind of go a long way to get to this answer, but I think it makes sense to your viewers is we've all probably had a really good meal. One that whether it's for anniversary or whatever, we've had a great meal and we just know when we take a bottle of that meal, how wonderful it is and how satisfying it is.

Cris Duncan: 12:12 Most of your listeners probably aren't trained and trained in the culinary arts, so they can't eat a good meal and say, Oh, you know why this is good. It's because they did this process and they cooked it this way and this was this. They can't, they just know it works. But if that bite has too much garlic or too much salt, immediately someone without any training knows something's wrong. And I felt, now I feel like our imagery is the same way. Our imagery is like a good meal. We have lots of ingredients, we have lighting, we have pose, we have color, we have key. We have composition, we have lens selection, all of these ingredients, and the end viewer doesn't know what made it good. They just want to look at it. But if there's something missing, like if the lighting doesn't match the narrative or the colors don't go with the key or all of those things. And if those words are listeners not there, I'm sure we'll get to it later. But if those don't match, even if someone that doesn't know art knows there's too much garlic, they can just feel it. And I felt like when I looked at some of those images at that display, I'm like, these are seasoned. Well, I've got too much garlic in my staff.

Raymond: 13:20 Yeah. Wow. That's a great analogy.

Cris Duncan: 13:22 And it's hard to explain that. I mean, especially on the radio and if you're watching this on YouTube, you're just seeing our faces. It's hard to, it's hard to explain that, but it's almost like you're, you know, our daughter's like, how will I know when I meet someone? And like you just know, I can't tell you how, you know, you just know. You just feel it. And I just had that feeling that, okay, something in my work is missing and I need to figure out what it is. And to me it felt like it was the lighting, just because I'd always heard light will create depth and I didn't feel like I had depth. And so I like, okay, I need to learn some lining. So I've found some people that I thought knew lining and took classes from them and ask them to be mentors. And now some, there's some of my best friends, so.

Raymond: 14:05 Wow, that's incredible. That is incredible. And that, like I said, such a great analogy and so simple that almost anybody can understand that it's, you can almost apply that to anything else. Not even just necessarily photography. I mean, any, any hobby that I suppose that you get into. But yeah, it's so easy to tell, you know, something that has too much salt or garlic, but when you have that good meal, you almost, you almost just suspend disbelief for a minute. You're just like, this is just great. Like I'm just going to enjoy this. And that's going to be that.

Cris Duncan: 14:34 You don't think about what went into it while you're eating and if it works, it's only when it doesn't work. Do you realize that you start dissecting what went into it and it's kind of a, it's kind of a weird, like a, I don't know, almost against intuition. You think if it works, you want to know how it works, but you don't, you just enjoy it.

Raymond: 14:53 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You just enjoy it. You just enjoy it. So one of the places that I see most new photographers getting hung up is that you know, typically when you just get that first camera, maybe you don't have a light or an off camera light. So you go and do all your sessions outdoors or where there's plenty available, natural lighting. And I know that you do family photos as well outside. Now is that where you got started or did you get started in a studio and then eventually move outside?

Cris Duncan: 15:24 I actually got started doing mostly commercial work and I do quite a bit of commercial work. For local businesses. Some of them are national chains, some of them are here. Mom and pop shops. But I got started doing a catalog for a company that's in Lubbock, Texas and they make orthodontic supplies. So there's a real sexy, yeah, real fun, real fun. Yes. Rubber bands and braces and wires and tools and jellies and all this different stuff. And so pretty early on, the reason I took that job is I could do it on my own time. I had another, I had another job at that time, so this was and so every evening I'd try to get, you know, a couple dozen products done in the studio and at the time the studio was our garage. And so that really helped me understand lighting cause I'm like, okay, when I look at this thing with my eye, it looks this certain color in shape. And then when I look at it on the monitor, it doesn't look that shape. And so there are a lot of trial and errors where I really had to figure that exposure out and how to light it to get it, to make it look like what my eye would see. Of course in commercial photography that's a lot more critical than, than in portrait photography, at least I believe it is. So,

Raymond: 16:41 So then when you, when you went outside, when you started shooting outdoors, was it just an entirely different environment for you? Or did it feel, did it feel very comfortable not having the same amount of control of your light?

Cris Duncan: 16:55 For me it felt comfortable and firm. And for your viewers or listeners, what I learned, and I think this will kind of go late into what we're going with rest of the conversation is in a studio, I learned that the light needed to be, have direction to it. I needed to have a highlight, I needed to have my mid tone and I needed to have a shadow. The only way to get that as have some type of direction, it can't be at camera position. So I learned that when I was doing this job and through my educational training and my mentor helping me with that. So, so I went outside. The first thing I was looking for is I need to see some direction of light. And so that kinda gave me an advantage to help where to place my subject in this certain scene is does it like give us a direction just like on my face, you can see the light coming in here. Highlight mid-tone shadow. Same with yours coming in, you know, with the lamp you have in your room. And so I was just looking for when I would go outside.

Raymond: 17:53 So what do you have now, obviously having been shooting for for quite some time, your eyes had been trained. Now you go out and you see these things first of all, but for those who are still just getting started, what is your tip for them? How can they find that directional light?

Cris Duncan: 18:11 One thing that I'll tell my students is find something in the scene that, you know, should be round a fire hydrant, a tree trunk, a trashcan, something that should be round that you know, it's around and look and walk around it. And when you walked around it, there's a point where that round object will look flat and there's a part where that object will look around. And when it looks round, that's when you know you have direction of light hitting it. If it looks flat, it's either all on the shadow side or it's all on the light side. If you get somewhere in between the shadow side and the light side, then you'll have that gradation of tones and there, you know, you have direction of light, but you can't do it on something that's square or flat. It's gotta be cause our bodies around, they're going to have some type of spherical shape. So I'm always looking at tree trunks. That's the easiest thing is look at a tree trunk or you know, or a street pole or telephone pole to see if there's roundness there.

Raymond: 19:05 Oh, that's great. Just keep looking at tree trunks. I like that. That's gonna. That's gonna change the way that I go out to to my next session. For sure. It's,

Cris Duncan: 19:13 Sometimes I hold my fist up, sometimes I'll hold my fist up and I know this is radio and people can't see it, but I'll hold my fist up and I'll stick my thumb out from my index finger and middle finger. And that kind of makes a nose shape and then I can move my fist around. If you're watching this on YouTube, you can probably see it. How, Oh, now I start getting shadows, but if I go this way, Oh, it's all flat and now, and so I've kind of made a mock face with my fist and kind of pull. We'll walk around and do stuff like that. So too,

Raymond: 19:44 You know what's so interesting about that? Yeah. If you're in a place with no trees, that's what you do. You use the hand. I like that. Let's say that's a a trick I learned during cinematography as well is that a lot of times you can tell, especially from this angle, which the camera can't see, but I guess that that skin on the back of your hand right there with the knuckles really really helps with that. And then I was going somewhere with that. But I completed, Oh, I think what's great about that that, that tip, that idea is that a lot of times, you know, when we go out and I guess we're looking for lighting advice, like it's so easy to hear like just look for even lighting, just look for consistent, just like even lighting go into open shade. And this kind of, I don't want to say goes against that, but it's almost like a different way of, of, of looking for like, can you explain the difference between the two?

Cris Duncan: 20:38 Well, I'm not going to argue open shade is great. Consistent lighting. Cause it's indirect. So indirect lighting, beautiful. But if you're going to go into open shade, what I find most photographers do is they put everybody square to the open part of the shade. And so, you know, open shade is under a porch, a building or a canopy of trees right on the edge. So you're not deep into shade that part of the shade is open. That's what that means. Part of that from, from that vantage point of your subjects part, they're in the shade but in front part of the area around them as open to the, to the skylight coming in. And so most photographers will put them square to that light coming in. And so that just has a light hidden on flat, flat on with, they just angled their subjects of this way into the shade just a little bit. Now that light is coming in at a gradation and so, so open shade can be great and you can use it, but it doesn't, they don't have to be square into it or you don't have to be square into them, you know? So, so I'm not going against open shade, it's just looking for direction of light

Raymond: 21:49 I think. I think what you did was, was you just went deeper into that concept. You know what I mean? Like still still looking for that light perhaps. It's just a really easy answer to give is like, well, just look for, just look for even light and then, and then that's it. That's all that you have to do. But yeah, I think that what you did was, was going much deeper into that and for that, I appreciate that. And I think that the listeners, or at least I hope that the listeners are going to go out and their next outdoor session and really look at the light differently instead of just walking towards a, a a S a spot of, of shade to put their subjects in, but really try to think about what it is that they're trying to find and how to make it more interesting now. So my next question is that, I'm sorry, go on.

Cris Duncan: 22:30 I was going to say, I think most photographers will benefit from this exercise, especially if they're trying to see how light is going to react, especially in the natural environment. You know, if it's under the shade of a tree or something, it's pretty, it's pretty standard. But when you get into an urban area and you've got light reflecting off windows and car and all this stuff, it gets a little more difficult to see. Is when you think you have a point, you want your subject, do a 360 walked around them and have their face follow you as you walk. And there'll be a time where you can see it and like, Oh, there it is and your eye will see it. It may take you a few times, but you will see it. And so I think that's a, sometimes I forget to do that exercise, but just because I'm experienced in this, and I'll have to remind myself I need to walk around and I'll find something that I hadn't seen before and it's, it's pretty, it's pretty cool. You're like, Oh, I've been to this location seven times and I've never photographed this direction. It's better. It's better. I think it's better.

Raymond: 23:26 That's a great tip then. That's something that I would never do. That's something that I would never do though. I suppose that the way that I build a shot is I always look for the background first and then I just put my people in it right in front of it. And as you can imagine, there are plenty of times where you get them in front of the camera and you realize, you know, this didn't work out the way that I hoping it to. Either they're too hot or they're too under or whatever. And that, that's a, that's a, that's a great tip. That's a great tip. Just ha just take that moment and have them turned around with, yeah.

Cris Duncan: 23:55 Now keep in mind, it may be when you turn around and say this is the best lot, the background is horrible. I mean that may be, and then you have to just think, you have to decide do I move them to a new location or we sacrifice one for the other. And I think both of those can be good answers. I'm not saying you can't put them in that flat light. You definitely can't. You could probably sell it, but I think you'll find your images have more impact and rise above when you have more direction light. Cause then you start getting more depth and more shape. And people won't know why. They just know there's not that seasoned. Right. They'll just feel like it's seasoned better. [inaudible]

Raymond: 24:32 So just seasoned better. That's going to be the quote for this episode. It's seasons, season your photos better. That's the [inaudible].

Cris Duncan: 24:37 That's going to be a lot of analogies. I do a lot of analogies to food for two reasons. Everyone has eaten before and most everybody has cooked something. Everyone has cooked something and culinary arts is a technical science and an artistic sub. There's an objective part of cooking and there's a subjective part of cooking. You have, if you want to serve a medium rare steak, it has to be 145 degrees, right? That's medium or that's technical [inaudible]. Right, but how you, how you season that steak is very subjective. Photography is the same way. Exposure is objective. You're either properly exposed or you're not. There's no, well, that's close to being good. No. You'd see either properly exposed or it's not now how you or it's lit well or it's not. But how you subjectively use that lining is up to the, but the objective part has to be there. And what I tell my students is when the tech, when your technical skills meet the narrative man, then your images are off the chart and then that takes years to get to, I'm not, and that's where good food is. Their technical skills fit their narrative of that meal and then then it works.

Raymond: 25:51 Yes. Oh, this is how exciting. This is so exciting. Suddenly, I mean, my mind is just raising my now. So there will be times that I'm sure that you have encountered where you were out, you know, at a let's say a family session, you're outdoors and you know, you like the background, you like your subjects, but you need that extra lighting. How important is bringing in that extra lighting? Or how often do you bring in artificial lighting while you're outdoors to make, to make the shot?

Cris Duncan: 26:24 Probably 95% of the time. Really? Why is that? Yes. Well for one, I live in Lubbock, Texas and you can look at it. So where we are on the map and if you look at some Google earth images, you'll say, Oh, bless his heart. It's flat. We don't have a lot of trees native to this area other than pecan trees. Most of the trees have been brought in from somewhere else. They've been transplants. So it's agricultural farm land. And I know they have that in every state, but we don't have mountains or Hills. And if you look at our Almanac, and historically we have 320 days of pure sun a year. So we didn't even get, we don't get any get overcast, you know, and so that forced us to have to create the lining because naturally it doesn't occur in some places it might where you have more tree cover or larger downtown or urban areas or such like that.

Cris Duncan: 27:19 So that's kind of forced me to do that. So I've had to bring in artificial lighting quite a bit. Just to get the good exposure. Second, I want to do that because I think it makes the eyes better. When I can get a nice strong catch light in the eyes, I can shape the subject a little bit better. I can overpower the sun if I need to. If a cloud does happen to come by or something strange happens, I can keep going. My color stays consistent. There's lots of advantages to using that light source that I can control. The main reason I like to do objective, yes. Well, and the main reason I like to do it is very technical. And if you're in an ambient light situation, window line or outside and you're on a need change one element of your exposure triangle, another one has to change.

Cris Duncan: 28:17 If I make my shutter speed faster, my at my aperture has to open up bigger. If I take my aperture smaller, my shutter speed has to go slower. They have to move in that a reciprocal relationship. Once I use electronic flash, the intensity of that flashed determines my aperture opening. And then any ambient light determines my shutter speed. So when I'm using an external flash, I now have two independent controls, shutter speed for the ambient and aperture for the flash. No longer are they moving reciprocally. And so that gives me so much more control from a technical standpoint to get a good exposure on subject and background. And also allows me the other things like, Oh, good color, nice catch lights in the eye from a subjective point. But technically it gives me more control as the photographer.

Raymond: 29:07 Yeah. And ultimately that's, that's all that we can ask for right there is, is that control. That's the difference between a beginner and a professional right there.

Cris Duncan: 29:16 Well, yeah, I don't think so.

Raymond: 29:19 No, you're right. You're right. So, so I guess that kind of brings me into the next few questions that I have about more of the professional side of the photography, which is I'm sure that being in your area, as you said, you know, the conditions almost always the same. So unless you're doing something different like using flash, using artificial lighting, all of these other photographers could potentially look the same in their imagery. So would you say that your lighting contributes to your success as a as a studio, as a photography studio,

Mid roll: 29:56 You are listening to the free version of the beginner photography podcast where each week you learn how world-class photographers see and capture the world around them. If you want to hear the extended interview with their best business tips to learn how to make money with your camera and then become a premium member today by heading over to beginner photography, podcast.com and click the premium membership button to join now

Raymond: 30:19 As somebody who who, who has, we had our family like professional pictures done and I have these photos framed and having young children looking at those photos on the wall every morning, you know, when they come downstairs, I can attest to the, to the importance of that. So I don't think that that's, I don't think that that's crazy. I don't think that's crazy at all. Yeah, thank you again for, for, for sharing that. I want to get back now into, into the lighting side of things because this is, I feel like I, I missed out on, on a few questions here and I know that we've got a few more minutes, so I will, I will make these quick. I think if you were to ask, now let me rephrase this question. Oftentimes, you know, new photographers, they don't have all of the gear. They don't have all the resources that many professional photographers do, you know. So can you tell me maybe about a time early on that you had to simply make, do with either the lighting or the camera that you had and how it turned out?

Cris Duncan: 31:25 Oh, absolutely. Yeah, you have to make, do with what you have for sure. So I would, if you're gonna I think every professional photographer needs some type of electronic flash, whether it be a speed light or a studio strobe or whatever it is. They need some type of electronic flash. There's going to be a point where you need it. And it's a tool that is required in my belief to complete the job proficiently and professionally for the client. But regardless of what that is, I think there's three things that a photographer needs to know about lighting. And the number one, I'll always say a size matters. The larger the light source, the softer the light quality will be. And so, but there's lots of ways to get and so we were like, Oh, I gotta buy a big old softbox. No, you can put a, you can fire a flash through a shower curtain that's frosted.

Cris Duncan: 32:23 You can get, I use paint or drop cloths that I get at home Depot that put on light stands and there now don't get the ones that are colored or clear plastic, get the frosted opaque ones. And then you have a big soft light source, bounce it into white paper. So I think there's lots of little things like that, but it all, but you have to understand the technical first. And so, you know, if we spent more time on lighting, I would tell you that size matters. And that'd be my first thing I would tell you is you have to understand how your size of your source before it affects your light quality. And so one of the things starting out that I had to do was because I didn't have all that, I didn't have big modifiers. And that's where I'm like, Oh, well if I can shoot, bounce this into something, then it becomes an effective, larger source.

Cris Duncan: 33:09 So when people take it to bounce your flash off the ceiling, right? Why? Because now the lot the Salem gets illuminated from the speed light and now that large light source now comes down producing softer quality because the light sources bigger. I know it's a lot of technical stuff. But here's, here's what I do encourage all of your listeners is it makes you might want to curl up in your seat or, or you know, cringe a little bit. But this profession is all math. It's all physics, the least of the technical side. But here's the, here's the exciting thing about that is don't cringe over it. You should celebrate over it because math is very predictable. Yeah. Two plus two was for 2000 years ago in two plus two will be four, and then the next millennium it's very predictable. So when you understand that the math, the mathematical physics of how light reacts, there's no more frustration over it because it's predictable. And that to me is what's so exciting about the technical part. It's not something we should be scared of. It's something we should celebrate because once we understand it, all those frustrations of lighting go out the window and then we can focus on our creativity and our narrative and our client experience. So I don't know if that answered your question, but

Raymond: 34:26 Yeah. You know, I had never, I had never thought about it like that before, is that it's, I mean, you know, you, you, you get that a lot. You know, it's a lot of math. It's a lot of numbers, you know, it's not necessarily that you're adding two plus two or whatever, but I think the numbers do kind of confuse people and all admit, even in the beginning, I I at times questioned my ability as a photographer just because sometimes it was hard to nail down all of those numbers. But you're right, once you get that, that grasp of the fundamentals, two plus two was for 2000 years ago and it will be for 2000 years from now. And that makes it a little bit easier. That makes a little bit easier. Yeah. Yeah. So where do you think, where do you think this will be? My last question for you, where do you think number photographers are, are, are, get, get wrong with, with lighting? What do you think new photographers get wrong when it comes to lighting?

Cris Duncan: 35:19 I can only judge on some of the work that I've seen in our area from new photographers in ones that I've mentored. But I think for one, they're not looking at light direction that we've talked about earlier, you know find that light direction. And I think a lot of the times the exposure is wrong. The initial exposure is wrong and that's because they have so many different light values in a scene that they're not quite evaluating. Most of the time it's the sky. The sky is going to be the hardest thing for you to control all the, I mean, that's, you can't control the sun, you just, right. Unfortunately, there's some ways to kind of get around it. Once you get more advanced, like I said, by adding a strobe that helps you control the sun with your shutter speed and not your aperture anymore.

Cris Duncan: 36:07 So there's some of those tricks, but I think the exposure is something that new photographers need to nail down. And that's why we don't show a sky a lot. For one, it's boring in one. I can't control it, so why am I going to mess with it unless I have to have the sky and the image for a particular narrative, I usually don't need it. And I think most of our clients, most of your listeners will probably think, you know, I'm not sure I really need this guy in a family portrait either. You know, maybe if it's this, this family is on their boat at their Lake house, maybe you have this guy in that. But most of the time, you know, it's, it's a nice close perspective and you don't need this guy. And that's an exposure which turns out to be a lighting issue for them. Sorry, what was the rest of your question?

Raymond: 36:55 Where do you see, in your opinion, looking at other photographers work? Where do you see other photographers get lighting wrong?

Cris Duncan: 37:03 Well, that I think, yeah, no direction. The exposure of the lighting I think is a problem. You don't see a lot of preset ads coming through on social media, you know, by these presets and always look at the, the S the last image looks nice, but the first image that they started with in this preset, I'm like, well, it's because it's under, most of them were underexposed or overexposed. And I'm like, well, if the exposure was right on this first one, this preset is going to have a completely different look. And so, I mean, exposure comes back to lighting. If it's, if your lighting is off, then you can't get the correct exposure because you don't have it hitting the face or the subject the way it should. So that's a problem. I think exposure has gotta be a photographer is a number one checklist, you know if I'm going to, again, if I go to a cooking analogy, if I'm going to cook, my number one priority is that it's cooked properly and then I go to, okay, well now I want to make sure it's seasoned well, and then I want to make sure that all the, all the different parts of this meal compliment each other.

Cris Duncan: 38:08 Like asparagus and Cheerios don't compliment but asparagus maybe with some shrimp might've might compliment each other or, or peas and carrots might compliment each other, you know? And so, but that's kinda my checklist as a photographer. Okay. Does, is the exposure correct? Can I manage my light values? Then I get to season it. How am I going to lie in it? You know, how am I going to season it with my lighting? And then do they all the, all the parts work together, do my colors, match my composition and all that? That's kind of my checklist. So I think every photographer, his first checklist is look at every value in your image, whether it's the sky, your subject, the ground, the background all of your subjects. You know, if you have seven members of a family, all seven need to be equally represented. Once you understand that exposure and you've got that, then the rest of it becomes so much easier. And so I think that's where I see most people off when they begin is exposure. And I'm sure most of it's because they're using their in-camera meter and it's everyone. It's going back and forth on some type of program mode. And there's a mindset of I can adjust that in post. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can, but you've sacrificed something every time you move a slider.

Raymond: 39:33 So just keep working on exposure in camera, do your best to get it right, keep practicing and go from there. Master it. That first.

Cris Duncan: 39:41 Yeah. I think exposure's gotta be our number one. Number one man.

Raymond: 39:47 Chris. Geez man. I have to say thank you for so much for coming on and sharing. So much. I personally learned a lot of from chatting with you today. I know that the listeners are gonna get a ton out of this as well. Before I let you go, why don't you let us know where we can follow you along online and keep up with you and your work.

Cris Duncan: 40:08 Okay. well our primary website is CJ dunkin.com. We do mostly family portraits and some seniors and like I said, my commercial website, you can get through CJ duncan.com too. We have three different websites for that. Our educational site is learn dot. Find your focus.org. I am a PPA certified C, let me say this again. PPA approved certification instructor. So I think any of your listeners that are wanting to move more into the professional world and make this a livelihood, I think the CPP program is a great place to start. I know in my class it's a three day course unless you do the online version, which is your own pace. If I teach it onsite, it's three days and it covers a lot of this technical stuff. But how this technical is applicable to your everyday work you have. And so when the technical meets the narrative, then your images are unstoppable. Yeah, that's all great. And on Instagram, I'm CJ Dunkin and Facebook. It's learn with learn with CJ Dunkin. So I know Twitter, I don't do Twitter.

Raymond: 41:19 Yeah, I know me. It just, I dunno, there's something about I D it just doesn't work in my brain the same way that something like Facebook does. But again Chris, I gotta say thank you so much for coming on and I really look forward to keeping up with you seeing what it is you come up with next and hopefully meeting you next time. Next year in imaging will be in a, is it Dallas, Texas, Texas, 2021 there'll be, we'll make it happen. We'll make it happen again. Chris, thank you again so much and I'll talk to the same pleasure, Raymond. Thank you.

Raymond: 41:50 Oh, that was one of those reviews. It was just fun to have, you know, a lot of times it was, it was, I think it was a great mixture of fun and also informative. And as somebody who uses lighting often at weddings, both natural and artificial with the off camera flash and just a even on camera flash as well, it's always good to hear from somebody else because you know, oftentimes we're just out on our own as photographers and we're just kind of doing things on our own. And maybe we figure out a way to do something, but it might not always be the most effective or the most efficient. And just hearing how other photographers work is, it really helps me. I mean, that's one of the reasons why I started this podcast, right, is, is to be able to talk to other photographers better than myself to, to hopefully pick up on their little tidbits as well. Raymond: 42:40 I think that one of my biggest takeaways from this episode is that you don't always have to take the same photo as everybody else. You know? Chris talks a lot about being in Texas and that, you know, that big Texas guy, it's always the same and no matter, you know, where it is that you live, you can always create something a little bit different than everybody else, which will really help you stand out in Chris's example, or in his case, rather, it doesn't really like to shoot the sky. And I get that, you know, I think that the sky is beautiful. I love to shoot this guy, but in Chris's case he decides not to. And that's what sets him apart. And I think that that is a really cool, so, you know, you're not always in control of where you live. Maybe you are, maybe you're not, but you can always control your photographs and really always create something unique.

Raymond: 43:30 So on top of that, Chris, if you are listening, thank you so much for sharing everything that you did to all the listeners. Chris is in the Facebook group, which you can join by just searching Facebook for beginner photography podcast. You'll find the group you can request access right there. And I'll let you in. And if you have any questions about lighting, I'm sure that Chris would be more than happy to answer those for you. So come on, join us in the group. We'll hang out, we'll talk photography, we'll talk lighting here with Chris. And that is it for this week. Until next week, I want you to get out. I want you to shoot more. I want you to make, do, I want you to make more, I want you to do more and I want you to make, do with the gear that you got because I promise you it's better than you think it is. So that's it for this week. Until next week, I'll talk to you soon.

Outro: 44:16 Thank you for listening to the beginner photography podcast. If you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review in iTunes, keep shooting, and we'll see you next week.