BPP 162: How To Make More Time For Your Photography

Photography can be a rewarding and fulfilling hobby. But it can be difficult to find time to shoot when you have a full plate with a family and full time job. Today I share 7 steps that will help you regain lost time so you can get out and spend more time shooting and practicing photography!

Full Episode Transcription:

Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.

Raymond: 00:00 This week's episode of the beginner photography podcast. I show you how to make more time so that you can get out, practice and shoot more. So let's get into it.

Intro: 00:11 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfield, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raymond interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now, with you as always, husband, father, Ho brewer, La Dodger Fan, an Indianapolis wedding photographer, Raymond Hatfield. Welcome

Raymond: 00:41 back to this week's episode of the beginner photography podcast. As always, I am Raymond, your host and wedding photographer here in Indianapolis. Uh, and I'm also a father. As you heard all of these things in the, uh, in the intro, it has been a, uh, kind of a crazy week for the Hatfield household. Uh, several things, uh, you know, just like it, it's mostly just like a lot of annoyances that have, that have, uh, you know, been happening, which have made it hard sometimes to focus and, uh, and, you know, get done what I wanted to get done. So this week, uh, my daughter was, uh, she's three. She was playing in my office here. And, uh, I ha I use a canon 70 d for a video stuff because it has fantastic, uh, auto focus for four video. Uh, so she was here in my office and she was playing with the camera behind me and dropped it.

Raymond: 01:36 And, uh, the microphone port now no longer works, which is fine as a, uh, you know, as a, as a photography camera, if you're just taking pictures with the camera, that works just fine. It looks fantastic. But since I use it for video, I need that microphone port and now it is dead to me. So that was an annoyance. So I had to, uh, get ready to sell it as well as buy a new camera. So I had to and to, you know, splurge, which I really wasn't looking forward to or anticipating, uh, on a, a new Fuji [inaudible] t now shoot Fuji if you've been listening for a while, you know that I shoot Fuji and that the x t three is a one step up. It's, it's their newest camera. So I, uh, I went ahead and picked that up. Uh, and I got to take it to an engagement session this last weekend in Michigan.

Raymond: 02:29 Uh, and it worked. It worked well. You know, it's funny though, uh, every time you go to get a new camera, you get excited for the possibilities, right? Everything that you'll now be able to do that you weren't able to do before and you feel like it just going to completely transform your shooting experience. But in reality, and it really doesn't, everybody talks about the, uh, the, the performance on [inaudible] compared to the expo two, which is what I have and how much faster it is. And was it faster? I Dunno, maybe, maybe I'm just not in situations where I need like lightening fast, autofocus, you know, I'm usually just taking portraits of people who are standing still in front of my camera. So auto focus, while important, definitely on a wedding day and I, I see its importance. Maybe I just didn't really get a, a real feel for, for, uh, how it works, uh, in this new camera to the best of its abilities.

Raymond: 03:30 So, uh, but it was good. I mean, the engagement session turned out fine and it was beautiful. It was a sunset and, uh, engagement session on a, uh, on a pier on the west side of Michigan. So we got the, the sun going over or going down over the water, which was, which was absolutely beautiful. So there was that. Um, uh, our oldest, uh, son brought home lice from school. So, you know, I contemplated just, uh, shaving off my head or shaving off all my hair off my head because I don't want to deal with that. Um, my wife, uh, starts a new job she wants, she just started a new job this week. Um, and on top of that, I've been really excited to, to, to get out some, uh, I've had some new ideas for content. Uh, some, some, I think some really awesome content for you all as listeners.

Raymond: 04:23 Uh, and I'm going to get into that in a little bit, uh, but I'm really excited to, to share. But I found that the very recently I've been, uh, falling just completely head over heels in love for a film. Like never before, honestly. Uh, so I've been shooting film for for several years. I mean, not like religiously, right. I don't shoot, you know, a roll a week or anything like that, but I definitely, I definitely, I'd probably shoot like five rolls of film a year. So not a ton, but definitely enough to understand how from works. Um, but in the past a few months, there's just been something that was just, you know, ignited within me and now it's all that I can think about. It's all that I want to do. So I've got a new film camera, I bought a new medium format film camera, I bought 30 rolls of film.

Raymond: 05:19 Uh, now I need the, you know, the equipment to actually develop my film. But I've actually challenged myself, uh, cause all the supplies to develop your own film are probably, it's the initial cost that's always, you know, the most expensive, but it's probably gonna cost about $250, uh, to get started. Uh, but I've, uh, I've challenged myself that I will not buy the, um, uh, the all the equipment needed to develop film unless I can earn that, uh, unless I can earn the money, uh, extra through my photography business. So with me being able to think about film nonstop, I actually haven't had much time to shoot any film recently. So it just one of those things. But, uh, you know, as I was going through it, all of this with the, with the cameras and, and, and the lice and, you know, my wife's starting a new job and trying to book some more sessions for the business.

Raymond: 06:23 Uh, I've been thinking a lot about that struggle of time and we always are wishing that we, that we had more time. But you know, when you think about it, it just, it just simply, it just simply not possible. And when you think about it even more, we have the exact same amount of time in the same hours in a day as, you know, Jeff Bezos or Beyonce, you know, and these people can, can achieve amazing things in their life. So I've been trying to kind of figure out how to better control time and maximize time, uh, the time that we do have to make it work better for us. And I get, you know, uh, the struggles of, of feeling like you can't practice of, of having a lot on your plate. I mean, honestly, if, if you gotta be there for your family and you're busy at work, I get it. I am, I'm, I'm right there with you. And these feelings can lead to feelings of, of guilt that, you know, you have this nice camera but you don't know how to use it or, or lead to feelings of resentment towards other photographers whose photos you love because you're not there yet. But right now I want you to ask yourself just one question and that is, is photography important to you?

Raymond: 08:00 if I think that if something is truly important to you, then there has to be, uh, some level of sacrifice to getting where you want to be. Um, but this episode isn't just about, you know, cutting everything out of your life just so that you can take some pretty photos. There's going to be some real actionable information here that you will be able to use and hopefully regained some time. But the first thing that we need to fundamentally understand is that, uh, well, you know, the way that we're going about it right now is just wishing that we had a spare, you know, four hours, like a block of four hours to just go out and practice everything that you want to practice. And that is just, that's what is just simply near impossible, especially with a full time job and a family, you know, and these other responsibilities that you have.

Raymond: 09:02 But so this is the core fundamental thing that we need to realize is that we, we simply do waste time and we have time gaps throughout the day. These time gaps are, you know, your lunch break, waiting for an appointment, a while, dinner's cooking, uh, in, in the train or on the train or in an Uber, right? We might have five, 10 minute gaps throughout the day. And these may seem like small, you know, you sit down and like, oh, you know, can you wait for 10 minutes? Okay, yeah. So then you just sit down and your weight. And then what ends up happening is that we just, you know, scroll through Facebook or whatever. Um, so these 10 minute blocks, it just cause they feel small, but over the course of a year, they total up to more than 48 hours. So there's a lot of room there.

Raymond: 09:54 And these are the things that I'm trying to, uh, really expand upon. Uh, using these short chunks of time to, uh, better utilize, uh, uh, better, um, learn and better utilize my time essentially than that. You know, but I want you to know this one thing about photography. So I'm sure that, you know, you're feeling like, oh, you know, what is Raymond going to cut out? Now we've got to be diligent. This is going to be a lot of work. But I want you to know this one thing about photography and, uh, photography is very, very, very much like, you know, riding a bike. Once you gain a certain level of proficiency, it becomes almost effortless to maintain that knowledge. You know, once you learn how to ride a bike and you know, hold yourself up, then, you know, 10 years from now you can, you can do it again because you understand the mechanics.

Raymond: 10:49 Maybe you can't go, you know, get in the Tour de France, but, uh, you can't, you have a level of competency that lets you go out and leisurely ride a bike. And it's the same thing with photography. It's that initial time that you put in that is gonna going to, uh, uh, take up the majority of, of, of the, of the free time that you do have. So while you may listen to this and think, I can't do all of these things, like I said earlier, if something is important to you, there really has to be at least some level of sacrifice. And the thing with photography is it'll be temporary because you just need to get to that level of competency before you can, um, uh, before you can maintain your knowledge. So do these things until you feel comfortable behind the camera. Like you know, you have to grasp it.

Raymond: 11:53 Okay. And you may be asking yourself, how will you know if you have grasped it? How will you know if you are comfortable behind the camera? And the honest answer is you just will. And I can only, you know, equate this to like driving a car. And at first you're nervous because you're behind the wheel of this, you know, 4,000 pound speeding death trap. But you know, you find yourself a year later where a driver in front of you slams on the brakes a bit too hard and you have to swerve and get out of the way. But then you realize after the fact that you actually checked your mirrors before swerving and then you just know that you got it at that point. At some point you have that level of competency and you've now practice it enough to where, um, you got it. But there isn't a definitive moment, you know, you will find yourself in situations that you previously thought that were difficult.

Raymond: 12:48 But now you can clearly think your way through it. Now it may take two months for someone else and I could take two years for you. And it is impossible to give you that timeline simply because of outside factors that will determine how hard you are able to pursue photography. Now, photography, um, is broken up into several different segments, right? There's, there's hobbyists, there's amateurs, and there are professionals. Now Hobbyists and people who want to remain hobbyists can be more relaxed with their time. They, they are doing this out purely for leisure. And therefore, you know, you may still be excited about something and you may want to really learn it, but you don't have to be as diligent with your time as somebody who say wants to start a business one day and actually make money with their camera. So, uh, before we, you know, get too deep into this kind of philosophical stuff, uh, let's just go ahead and get on into the, uh, more step by step process.

Raymond: 13:58 Um, so I've kind of broken it down into, uh, seven different steps to regain more time throughout your life. So step number one is just to simply get set up for this. And by get set up, I mean, um, don't, uh, get lost in Youtube. That is the first place where a lot of people go, uh, to learn photography because generally photographers are very visual learners and, uh, so youtube is just, uh, it just makes sense and when you go, you can easily, easily, easily get lost. Um, and I have found a, as of you know, later than it should've been, but, uh, as of you know, the past few months instead of for me, instead of going to youtube and instead investing in some sort of course or program that tackles a very specific need that I have, I, uh, am able to learn that thing much quicker and much more efficiently.

Raymond: 15:00 I don't feel as lost, right? So I would recommend getting the creative live, uh, or just signing up for creative live because cause creative live is just a fantastic place to start because for one they have a huge range of um, different tutorials, different courses that can help you from everything from like, you know, Photoshop one-on-one to, you know, how to create a business and thrive. And what's better is that they have an app and then app on your phone can be used to replace, you know, whatever other social media you're using. And now you can fill those time gaps with some education. Now if generally these courses do, do cost money, um, but within the app you can actually watch one lesson free every single day. So again, if you're focusing on one thing, say, uh, you know, if, if you're focusing on, you know, this is more of an advanced topic, but like composites, like composite photography and Photoshop.

Raymond: 16:08 Now every time you have a time gap, you know, at least once a day you can go through and watch a lesson absolutely for free. So that is going to be a much better use of your time. Then, um, you know, just mindlessly scrolling through Facebook and I do this, I do this all the time. Um, so I, I still definitely have this problem and I need to get better on, on working on these things as well. But one of my favorite apps as of recently, um, to learn is actually been through the, uh, Google app. So Google has, uh, has a dedicated app. And I remember when it first launched, I thought, well, what's the point? It's just gonna be a search bar that makes no sense. Um, why not just use, you know, safari or chrome or whatever is built into your phone.

Raymond: 16:54 Um, but I downloaded the Google app and found very quickly that it's so much more than that. You almost have like your own feed of, of, of news and blog articles based on the things that you're searching for. So if you are searching for photography tutorials, if you are searching for how back button focus works, if you're searching for a, you know, uh, how different apertures affect your photo, Google's going to understand that you are interested in photography and that you're trying to learn more about photography and will then there start showing you more articles related to photography. And I can tell you that I've learned a lot of things that I didn't know about, um, photography through just kind of stumbling upon these reads. So it's a fantastic source just to be able to more passively, uh, find information because these short blogs or articles perfectly fit in these, you know, five, 10 minutes time gaps.

Raymond: 17:54 So there is, there's number one, okay. Number two. Number two is to stop doing something else. So stop doing something else right? At the end of the day, if you feel like, oh, I just didn't have enough time today, I wish that I could've gotten more done, then your time is filled with, you know, with things. And that is where, uh, you know, you can, you can obviously the desire to have more time comes from, but if we actually take an objective look at the amount of time that we have spent throughout the day, some of it, uh, I would say the majority of the time that can be regained is simply through, you know, binge-watching and mindlessly scrolling. These are definitely the two biggest ones. And I don't mean to say this, you know, to be, um, accusatory because I'm super guilty of this. I am, and I've just realized that like these are the two areas of my life to where if I, if I just, you know, if I just cut out TV, I could probably save, you know, two hours a day, one hour for big brother and then you know, another hour for, for dodger games.

Raymond: 19:03 Cause just cause they start so late. Otherwise, if dodger game started earlier in the day, then I'd be watching TV for four hours a day, that's for sure. But I gotta get some sleep at some point. So, um, I want to give you a fun little exercise. My wife doesn't think it was a fun exercise, but I think it's a fun exercise. If you have an iPhone, you can go into your settings and you can search for your screen time. So screen time tells you how long your screen has been on, uh, uh, during the day. And it'll also give you a breakdown of what apps are most used. And I'm willing to bet that you are on your phone for more than three hours a day. Now. Sure. You know, a phone can be a productive tool, right? I get that. Um, with phone calls, important emails, but surely not every moment. It's been diligently, um, you know, making progress on something. And I'm going to share with you my, uh, my screen time right now. So, uh, well my screen time is a little skewed because I had to use gps in my car when I was going up to Michigan and that was a three and a half hour drive. So, um, it says that my, uh, daily screen time on average is two hours and 50 minutes per day.

Raymond: 20:26 So it says that in the past seven days, I've spent four and a half hours on Facebook. Uh, obviously three and a half hours using, um, uh, maps. I was a, I spent two hours in the, uh, in the, uh, audible app, uh, two hours using my Google app, an hour and a half, uh, using, uh, you know, text 55 minutes on Youtube and then 40 minutes listening to a podcast. Uh, it would be a lot more, uh, on that podcast app. But, uh, I found a really good, I started listening to Pat Flynn's, um, newest book and that in audible on the way up to Michigan. So anyway, as you can see right there, I spent four and a half hours on Facebook just in the last seven days alone, right there. Even if I cut that in half, that's an extra, you know, more than two hours throughout the week.

Raymond: 21:20 So I think just being aware of where your time is going, uh, has really helped me kind of, um, being more, um, be, you know, just, just be more and be more aware when I'm actually like on Facebook. So, uh, if you are like me, you know, maybe on your lunch break, instead of us just scrolling through Facebook using that time to, you know, either listen to other podcasts about photography, a watch, you know, you're free lesson on creative live or, or read those photography blogs in the, in the Google app. Those are, those are things that have a have helped me. But once you, you have to stop doing something to be able to replace that time with something else that you do want to do. All right. Number three is don't overwhelm yourself. Pick one thing and then stick to it. When you're brand new to photography, you have one goal and that is to learn photography.

Raymond: 22:26 But learn photography is not a goal. It's just too broad and you can't learn everything about photography. Learn photography. It might be a lifetime goal cause it can never be achievable. But um, learn photography is not a good short term goal for beginners. Something like learn how to use a aperture or learn how to, you know, get out of focus backgrounds. That is a goal. That is a goal. So pick one and stick with it. So this typically leads, and this is what I love about photography, is that once you learn one thing, it typically leads to other things and the next obsession as well. So, uh, sticking to one thing is really going to help you stay focused and not, you know, what good is, you know, saving two hours a week by not being on Facebook and then just feeling like you've wasted it because you haven't learned anything extra cause you're just trying to learn everything.

Raymond: 23:25 Once you stop overwhelming yourself, narrow down to just one thing and then focus on it, you're gonna feel a lot better about learning photography. So remember how I mentioned that new content that I have, uh, in the, in the, in the beginning and the intro there. Well, uh, I want to share that with you now. If you are brand new, I have a brand new free ebook that you can actually download called picture perfect camera settings. So picture perfect camera settings is a, again, a free ebook that walks you through just how to get started with your camera settings in any situation. Uh, so from photographing your kids to shooting a wedding, uh, I actually share photos in the ebook and the settings that I used, uh, and, and, and share recommended starting points with those examples, uh, so that you can get set up and then make adjustments as needed.

Raymond: 24:19 And the Ebook is, again, it's completely free and if you're interested in it, you can download it just by heading over to beginner photography, podcast.com and then heading over to the resource tab at the top of the page. So here we are at number four and number four is, um, is just simply preplan preplanned, meaning that, uh, you have now gone through and you have audited your time and you have found spaces where you can either where you have either utilized those time gaps or you've cut down in other areas to be able to, um, have more time for you to use on photography, right? So you're learning as much as you can and you focused on one thing. You didn't overwhelm yourself. You are focusing on how to get out of focus backgrounds, right? But now the time has come to actually go out, you know, and shoot, and this is where pre plan comes in.

Raymond: 25:20 Cause after learning you should really make yourself an action plan of what it is that you need to do to really feel like you understand. Uh, and, and, and did you grasp that concept? Right? And you can, you can read every blog post, watch every youtube video, but if you actually, if you don't actually get out and spend time behind the camera, not really gonna be that, um, successful, it's not really going to help as much as it would, um, by, I got off topic there by, by simply just going out and doing that thing. So figuring out what it is that you need in order to, uh, be proficient in that, in whatever it is that you're trying to learn. So, you know, ask yourself, do you need a morning sunrise? Do you need someone just to be in front of your camera? Do you need a fast moving object?

Raymond: 26:19 You know, these are the things that you should figure out now so that when you do take the time to actually go out and shoot and be behind the camera, then you are going to be ready to snag this shot. Um, and just just be set up for it. You know, I've found that me as a, as a photographer, it's very hard for me to just go out and just like leisurely shoot. I can't just go out and say, oh, that's a nice thing. And then take a photo of it. I really have to have some sort of game plan in my head to be able to capture the photos to capture photos that I will be, uh, um, you know, happy with. Uh, so, so pre planning for me has been one of the biggest ones for sure. Now number five is to give yourself a time limit.

Raymond: 27:06 There is a lot to learn, you know, with photography you could listen to, you know, every podcast nonstop. You could watch educational courses, you could watch youtube videos, you can read blog posts all day long and still feel like you haven't got anything done. Now, if you take, you know, the hour before bed where you're usually watching the news, which somehow feels important but actually never leaves you feeling good or inspired or, or like, you know, you took anything away from it and then you use that time instead to educate yourself when the hour is up, just stop. Just stop. The key here is to, you know, obviously you're focused on one thing, how to, um, get out of focus backgrounds. You've now spent an hour watching videos on how to get out of focus backgrounds. Now stop and then really take that time to reflect on that information that you have learned.

Raymond: 28:12 Learn from it. It's a homebrewer reference right there. Speaking words. You're going to get out and brew anyway. That hour that you spend, you know, learning that one topic, it can be so much more powerful than three hours of just trying to consume it all. And I think the reason why we spend three hours trying to consume it all is because we always feel like there's one tip, one trick, one little hack that we are, you know, that we don't, that we're missing and that if we just watch one more video, we're gonna, we're gonna finally get it if we're going to finally understand it, but that's not how this works. I mean, maybe for some things, but for photography, really the education comes from putting in the time behind the camera. So spend as little time as you can learning and spend as much time as you can doing.

Raymond: 29:05 But since obviously learning, you're probably going to have more access to in your time gaps then then just utilize that time as much as you can. Okay. Number six is learn to delegate tasks or think of how you can speed up other tasks. So, um, for the past probably six months or so, uh, we started doing, uh, grocery pickup at our, at our local store. So, uh, we can, there's an app that we can download. We go online. Um, we order all of our food, like all the groceries that we're going to eat that week through this app. And then through this app, uh, they put all the groceries together, you know, the people at the store and then go ahead and put everything in a cart and bag it up for us. And then, um, when we arrived at the store, we just call a number and they come on to the car and then they loaded in the car.

Raymond: 30:01 Fantastic. And then we leave. Like we're done. We're good. We're done grocery shopping and it has saved us not only a good amount of money from only buying what we need because we not, you know, walking through every aisle thinking, Ooh, Macadamia nut brownies. That sounds delicious. You know, when we shouldn't be eating macadamia nut brownies. But it also saves more than an hour every single week from actual shopping. And you may be thinking, how the hell do you spend an hour at the grocery store shopping? And the answer is children that, that's simply it. It's still [inaudible]. They, you know, they want to look at things. They are always walking around. Um, you know, and it, it just takes time. So that right there by doing online pickup saves us 52 hours per year. That's an extra, you know, two and a half days. That is fantastic right there. Fantastic. So now that's one area of your life where you could delegate tasks, right?

Raymond: 31:06 Because I find that it is, once you come up with a meal plan, it's much easier to just shop for the ingredients in the app. It might take, you know, 12 minutes to do a week's worth of grocery shopping for us. And then while we're already out, we just stop and pick up groceries. So it's, it's, it's great. So we figured out how to delegate that task for us. And then the next thing is how to speed up other tasks. And, uh, I found that, um, you know, making meals is a huge, it takes a lot of time and I understand because, you know, we gotta eat, we're humans, you know, we want to eat good food and we got to spend time to make good food. Otherwise, you know, we would all just be eating microwave dinners, you know, three meals a day, every single day.

Raymond: 31:54 That's not good. That's unhealthy. So, um, I found that meal prepping has also saved us a good amount of time. This is sped up, um, other, you know, another task that we do because we know that we're going to have to eat every single day, multiple times a day. And that time, you know, from thinking to yourself, hmm, what is it that I want to eat? Let me go and see what we have. And then trying to Frankenstein something together and then, you know, cooking it and then putting it on the plate. Obviously you got to eat it and then cleaning it all up can take a good amount of time. Honestly, you know, more than an hour a day, uh, just in cooking. So what we decided to do is just to meal prep all of our lunches and dinners the Sunday before the week starts. Now it takes about three hours.

Raymond: 32:44 It does take, you know, a good amount of time, but three hours on a Sunday and you get all of your food ready for the entire week as opposed to every day, you know, deciding what to eat, seeing if you have anything cooking and then cleaning it all up has been a real, a real time saver. That's four extra hours per week that you can spend. You know, now at, you know, dinner time, you have something that you can just throw in the oven and then when it's done, you know, eat it while you're waiting for to cook. There's a time gap. There's where you can learn. There's where you can go in your back yard and do is where you can practice. You know, if you're not stuck, you know, uh, in front of the stove or whatever, cooking a meal, then you have that time to take your camera and you know, you don't have to create massive photo shoots, just go out into your backyard.

Raymond: 33:41 I think that a backyard is a great place to learn photography, so, so now you have that time to do that. Okay. We have made it to number seven in this seven step series. So let's go ahead and recap real quick what we have learned. Number one, get set up. Find Out, you know, make a decision on what it is that you want to learn and how you want to learn and then, uh, be prepared so that when these time gaps arise, you can take advantage of them. Stop doing something else. You know, I shared that I spent almost, almost five hours in the past seven days on Facebook. Uh, I know that I can stop doing a lot of that and I can cut that down a considerable amount and then that frees me up to do more things. Uh, in photography. Number three is don't overwhelm yourself.

Raymond: 34:40 Pick a topic, stick to it. Quote Unquote. Learn photography is not a goal. Something like, learn how to, uh, use aperture is a better goal. Number Four, pre plan. Get Ready, uh, for your shoot so that when the time comes, you're not wasting time and wishing that you could have identity differently or better. Number five, give yourself a time limit. If you cut down the amount of time that you can learn per day, you are going to maximize that time. You're really gonna take that time seriously. And then when you do that, when you take in less information, you have more brain capacity to be able to expand on those ideas and uh, let them ferment. As I say, number six is delegate tasks or think of ways that you can speed up other tasks that you do every single day. That's where I shared, uh, you know, using grocery pickup, which is free by the way.

Raymond: 35:40 And then it's crazy to me. It's free, so awesome. It is. It's one of the best. And then, uh, speed up other tasks is meal prepping throughout the week. And then those things save a lot of times. So, so now we have, let's just assume that we have saved ourselves two hours in a week and now we have a two hour block of time. And that's, that's the dream, right? You're like, Whoa, what am I going to do with this time? No, you don't want to say, Whoa, what am I going to do with this time? Hopefully you have preplanned and you know exactly what you want to do with that time. But one of the biggest hurdles that, um, a lot of people have to go through, and myself included, but I really wasn't aware of this until my wife made it, you know, very clear is that you need to eliminate guilt and guilt is, is, is a mindset guilt.

Raymond: 36:31 You know, while while all these tips will help you grow, you don't man, you know, you do need to spend time behind the camera. I've said that you just simply can't learn photography without spending time behind the camera. So, but again, I understand that, that, that guilty feeling of like, well, I've been gone all day. How can I spend more time away from the family just to do some, you know, just to take some pretty pictures. But I really think that, you know, sitting down and telling your spouse or your partner how important it is for you to learn photography from, from having a creative outlet or, or more, you know, to build the foundations of a business. Try to make a realistic time to shoot. You know, I just said that you have this two hour chunks. Let's just use one hour, maximize that time and schedule it immediately following work or even before work.

Raymond: 37:31 You know, maybe you want to get that sunrise shot, but if you do it, you know, on your way to work or on your way home from work, then that reduces the amount of time away from your family. And I know this, my, my wife has told me before that sometimes, you know, she won't go to yoga class or dinner with friends because she feels guilty that I'm home with the kids all day and then she comes home and then just leaves, you know. And while I appreciate her for thinking of me, it was also so, so, so important to focus on yourself, which has been the main theme of the podcast this year. So at some point you do have to work on eliminating that guilt that you have because that is the only way that you can grow. And if you can't get out and you know, put time in behind the camera, how far do you think you can really go?

Raymond: 38:24 You know, how you can, you know, uh, uh, doctors could watch every single, you know, uh, uh, not lab like procedure. They can watch every single procedure on video multiple times. But it's not until you actually do the thing that you, that you feel like you've learned it and that you've grasped how it works in photography is exactly the same. So if you have kids at home, you know, if you work a full time job, don't, you know, cut everything out just to pursue photography. What we're talking about here is imagine if you had an extra hour per week to go out and photograph an hour to go out and you know, go to a state park or photograph the kids or go downtown and practice street photography or set up a shoot with, with a friend or somebody who's willing to be in front of the camera.

Raymond: 39:22 Imagine what that would do for you one hour every single week. And I, I personally can cut out an hour, uh, just from being on, you know, Facebook, I could do that easily, easily and then no other time is taken away. You know, I didn't have to do anything else. It's possible. It may be hard, but it's possible. And again, if, if you, if something is really important to you, there is some level of sacrifice that has to be made in order to accomplish that. And I really think that if you tried hard, you could find that one hour per week to actually go out and shoot without interrupting almost any other area of your life. And when you do that, you're going to feel more fulfilled. You're going to be happier, you're going to obviously accelerate your learning, you're going to become a better photographer. Like that's the path to be able to do that.

Raymond: 40:24 So there you go. And Again, oh yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna wrap that up with vet that it's, it can be temporary. You know, if you, if you, because you just need that, that certain level of competency before you can just maintain the skill and the knowledge. Okay, so that is a, that is it. Those are my seven tips to um, gain more time in your life and use it to practice and learn photography. Again, I know that this is not easy, but it can be done, I promise you. So that is it for this week. I want you for real this week. I want you to get out. I want you to shoot, I want you to be safe. And most of all I want you to focus on yourself. All right? Until next week. I love you all.

Outro: 41:16 If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond. And other listeners of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.

Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

BPP 161: Daniel Milnor - Story Telling without Social Media

Daniel Milnor is a self proclaimed creative evangelist, disinclined to social media, film shooter his work can be found in the Los Angeles museum of art, and the George Eastman house. Today we talk all finding and telling the best story.

Daniel Milnor is a self proclaimed creative evangelist, disinclined to social media, film shooter his work can be found in the Los Angeles museum of art, and the George Eastman house. Today we talk all finding and telling the best story.

Become A Premium Member is access to more in-depth questions that help move you forward!

In This Episode You'll Learn:

• How Daniel got started with photography

• Why Daniel went to college to learn photography

• What Daniel hoped to learn by going to college

• If Daniel thinks college is still relevant for photographers

• What Daniel has to capture to consider a shoot a success

• How much of Dan’s stories are planned out

• How Daniel goes about planning a trip and story to capture

• How shooting film has made Daniel more connected to his work

• Why Daniel swears off social media

• How not being on social media has effected his work

• What Daniel feels is the best way to share his work if it’s not on social media

Resources:

• Daniel Milnor’s website

• blurb.com

Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

Full Episode Transcription:

Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.

Raymond: 00:00:00 Welcome to the beginning of photography podcast. This week we're talking all about how to find until the right story with your camera. So let's get into it.

Intro: 00:00:10 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfield, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raymond interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now with you as always, husband, father, Home brewer, La Dodger Fan and Indianapolis wedding photographer Raymond Hatfield. Oh, welcome

Raymond: 00:00:39 back to this week's episode of the beginner photography podcast with you. As always, I am Oh Raymond Hatfield and today is a fantastic interview. You know, sometimes I have interviews where the photographer is very technical minded person and we talk a lot about, you know, settings or logistics and you know, how to be in the right place at the right time. And then other times I speak to photographers who were very emotionally driven and they look at the big, uh, idea of photography and it's more of a feeling for them than a strict manual of how to take photos. And very rarely do I get to talk to somebody who is both. And I think that today's guest, um, is, is just that is just that they're there. Whatever it is that your mind focuses on, you're going to find a lot in this interview that is just fantastic and I had such, such a great time.

Raymond: 00:01:37 So I'm super excited, uh, to get into this. But first I want to give a listener shout out a listener shout out this week it goes to Danni Leigh who left a five star iTunes review. Danni says, this podcast is wonderful. I love hearing the journey of each photographer and love how Raymond Geeks out asking them questions. He seems just as excited as his listeners to be listening to something new. Raymond does a great job making sure terms can be understood by everybody. I really recommend this podcast tech, everyone interested in photography. Danni. Oh my gosh, thank you so much for that review. And I cannot stress enough how, how happy I am that a, that you picked up on my excitement as well because, uh, when the podcast was started, the idea came from, I just simply wanted to talk to photographers who were better than me.

Raymond: 00:02:33 And, uh, I continued to do that. It's, I'm not here to just ask, you know, um, how do you take photos cause I don't care about that. I want to like really get into it. I don't care about what gear you have. I want to get into it. I want to find out more about you as a photographer, how, how you see the world and then also those technicals as well. Um, but I think one of the most important quotes I've ever heard in my entire life is, uh, or I guess it's a piece of advice is just simply be the dumbest person in a room. Because when you're the dumbest person in the room, all you can do is learn and soak up more information. And then that is how you're going to skyrocket your growth. And, and, and learn and grow and become a better photographer.

Raymond: 00:03:15 And this podcast is your room. I want, I want you to be the dumbest person in this room, right? Because when I speak to other photographers, I'm the dumbest person in the room and I try to learn more from them. And I hope that by you listening, you feel that same way, that wow, there's such a big, vast world of photography out there and there's so much to learn and I hope that it gets you excited and as excited as, uh, as I get as well. So thank you again, Danni, so much for leaving the podcast, a review. I truly do appreciate that. So we are going to get into today's interview right now with Dan Milner. Now, Dan Milner is a, uh, he's a documentarian, photographer, so he goes out on assignments and shoots, uh, all over the world and does new and interesting things. And I think that that is a really interesting, and it is a, a, a fantastic interview that we're going to get into right now.

Raymond: 00:04:12 But, uh, I want you to know that there are some, um, I had some difficulties with my audio recorder. It recorded all of Dan's audio extremely fast. Uh, so I had to fall back on just the standard audio that was recorded with Skype. So, uh, if you can get through kind of the cracks and the pops and a little bit of a freezing from time to time, I tried to clean as much of it up as possible, then I know that you're still going to get a ton out of this episode. So, uh, let's just go ahead and get on into it right now. My interview with Dan Milner, today's guest is Dan Milner, a self proclaimed creative evangelist, uh, with over 25 years of professional photography experience disinclined to social media. He's a film shooter and his work can be found in the Los Angeles Museum of art as well as the George Eastman House today.

Raymond: 00:05:04 I am so incredibly excited to talk to Dan. Dan, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Of course. Thanks for having me. I love talking about this stuff. This is, this is, this is a fun one for me. I learned about you through a mutual friend of ours, Mark Silber [inaudible] a quite a guy. I mean this guy obviously has been in it for a long time and the way that he kind of sees photography is very, um, very different compared to how a lot of other photographers today talk about photography. And when you two sat down and had your conversation, I knew that you as well would be a perfect fit for the podcast to kind of share your, your story of photography. You have a very, a different take than a lot of other photographers. But before we really get on into all of that, can you take me back to when you first picked up a camera? What was that like for you? I think you have to go

Daniel Milnor: 00:05:58 a slightly further back. It wasn't what made me pick up a camera was my mom picking up a camera. So when I was a kid, uh, we lived from Indiana to want to Texas and my mom had a Pentax k 1000 and Kodachrome and she had this caliber. The pace. Yeah, the, it's probably her camera's probably still out there. Someone's probably still using it. Those things are bulletproof and up everywhere I went we had that Halliburton case. So in Wyoming, if we were in one truck, he always had to move the Halliburton case over and mom was shooting all the time. So the idea of recording with the camera was always kind of in the back of my head. And, uh, I started actually writing before I did photography, which I still do, I write every day, but I, I would, I just started writing like fictional short stories when I was in elementary school and I would write down conversations that I heard and my parents talking to their friends.

Daniel Milnor: 00:06:50 And I don't know why I did that exactly, but I just started recording and the camera became sort of an extension of the writing, whereas I just, I, and I still feel the same today. I just have this need to record things. No one sees what I'm recording or reads or any of that. I just do it constantly. And it's an addiction. It's a curse, whatever you want to call it. So, uh, and then I've got out of high school and, uh, I actually had a scholarship as a shooter, shotgun shooter, believe it or not, uh, which was a really good scholarship and it was to a very good academic school. And the coach that taught the, uh, the shooting team that traveled internationally, it was a really amazing thing. He had seen me shooting when I was a little kid and he came to my dad and said, you know, with the pay when he's older, if he can qualify, get into the stool to the school, I'll give him a scholarship as a shooter.

Daniel Milnor: 00:07:40 And so my life was headed towards that. And also studying geology. I really wanted to be a geologist. And the admissions building and the admissions program at that call was, was moving. And in the process of moving, they lost a huge number of incoming transcripts, including mine. And so the dean of admissions called my mom and said, look, it's our fault. We've locked, we have no record of him. So he's going to have to go somewhere for a semester and then transfer in the following semester. And the only school left open was San Antonio College, which was a two year community school. I knew nothing about. All I knew was that, all I thought at the time was the only people that go to sac are the ones who can't get in anywhere else. And so I was sort of heavy hearted. I went down there, I signed up for basic classes, English history, whatever, that would transfer over to this other school.

Daniel Milnor: 00:08:28 And low and behold, I find out that they have one of the best journalism programs in the country run by a guy named Jerry Townsend. And Jerry was like a no nonsense guy who, who basically saw some images that I'd made and said, hey, if you want to be a photographer, I'll give you a scholarship to be a thugger. Wow. And that was it, man. And I had, I walked in Rudy Gonzalez, who's a photographer. I think at the rocky mountain, no, the rocky mountain news has gone, I don't know where Rudy is now, but Rudy, it was amazing. Photographer was the person I met in the program and he walked up to me with a and an old icon with a screw mount 35 millimeter. And he gave me this little printout that was the sunny 16 rule for exposure. And he gave me an assignment. So literally I had never used a camera for real. And I was, I was going out on assignment. It was that quick. And you learned very, very quickly working on a daily paper, wood blinds. It was a weekly paper, I think at the school. Anyway, it freaked me out. A, I was terrified for about five minutes. And then I just said, I have to own this and I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go halfway. I'm gonna make this my life. And that was it.

Raymond: 00:09:30 Wow. So let me, let me go back there. When you, when you first showed up to San Antonio College and you decided to take this journaling or journalism class, was it, um, was it through? Uh, the stories that you were writing, is that what you were, were getting the scholarship in or was it through the, the photographs that you had shown?

Daniel Milnor: 00:09:51 So, my mom and I were driving home one day and San Antonio and there was a massive flood happening. And so, uh, when I got out of high school, I was in the, uh, uh, merchant marine program out of Texas a and M at Galveston. That was like a four month program. And one of my roommates on the ship had a camera and he was kind of serious about photography and the ship had a photographer. And I remember being in that ship and watching the ships photographer work. And I had never seen a human move the way that this guy moved and I couldn't figure out why he was moving the way he was. And then after about a month and a half on the ship, I realized he was following light. He was looking at light and he was moving himself into positions for light. And I had never thought about light before.

Daniel Milnor: 00:10:34 So the I, when I got off the merchant marine ship, I picked up a camera. I thought I found an old camera in a closet in our house and I just started wandering around with this thing, no idea what I'm doing. My mom and our driving home one day and there was a flood happening and we come to a low water crossing and there's a school bus full of kids that's about to get swept over this bridge. And the army's brought in, or the air national guard or somebody brought in this big Chinook double screw. Hello. They're trying to lift this bus out. And so we're just standing there watching and I'm like, you know, hey, I have a camera. Maybe I should take pictures of this. So I shoot a couple of pictures and then I shoot a couple of other pictures during the flood and I'm at lunch at school with a bunch of friends sitting around the table and I have these little four by six.

Daniel Milnor: 00:11:14 This is on the table and I'm showing my friends like, Hey, look how great I am. I did these pictures and this instructor walks by and he leans over and he goes, who took those? And I thought I was in trouble, so I'm like, they're not mine. I didn't take them. And so we're all sitting there and then one's like, nope, don't know where they came from, who not ours. And he goes, I'm not leaving. I know one of you took these and that was Jerry towns and actually he was the head head of the journalism department. And I said, okay, I didn't want my friends to get in trouble. I said, okay, these are mine. And he said, I'll give you a scholarship if you want to be a photographer. And that ends, and this was not, this was a community call it, the scholarship was probably less than a hundred dollars.

Daniel Milnor: 00:11:50 It probably paid for my books. But what I didn't realize was that Jerry was, had a really remarkable career and Jerry was driven. And again, he was no nonsense. This was prior to the Internet. This was prior to digital technology. This was prior to politically correct political correctness. This was prior to having to basically baby people who were getting into photography. This was high pressure, high demand, you know, do not mess up if you come back without an image, don't bother coming back kind of thing. And so you're on assignment and people who are there are taking it very seriously, whether you're a writer or a photographer. So the first assignment I had was as a writer and I got sent to a bomb threat and one of the buildings on campus. And on the way there I thought, I wonder why they're sending natives. I'm proud I'm expendable. And then I got over there and they said, hey, we don't have a photographer free, can you make pictures? And I said, I don't really know. And that's when Rudy gave me the camera and the, and the Lens and the sun 16 rule for exposure. And I, I did a couple of assignments and I never went back to writing, even though I write everyday, I never did it for a career.

Raymond: 00:12:53 Oh my gosh. Wow. What a, what a way to get into photography. Like, Hey, here's the camera. Uh, let's go photograph a possible, uh, life, uh, you know, ending situation here. That's insane.

Daniel Milnor: 00:13:04 And the, the funny thing is the first, the first assignment I had after that was to photograph a speaker who, I don't remember who it is now, he's a well known guy. I show up and it's in an auditorium and there are at least 300 people in this auditorium and I'm like, I have a 50. I'm like, I have to be right next to this guy. I have to be up on the stage or in front. And everybody in the room is going to see me. And I stood in the back of the auditorium for a couple of minutes, minutes and I was really nervous. I thought, man, I don't want to do this. And then I thought, you know, I made a decision that I've stuck with for the rest of my life and it was a great decision how I came to it. I don't know, but I, I just said, look, I'm never going to see anyone in this room ever again. And if I go up there and trip and fall over and everyone gets a laugh out of it, that's probably the worst thing that can happen. So I'm going to own this and I'm going to go and move or I need to move to get the pictures. And I did and I still remember what the picture looked like. I still remember where it ran in the, in the, um, the paper. The school was called the ranger and uh, yeah, it was, it was great. It was a great way to learn photography.

Raymond: 00:14:09 Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. Especially to get one of your first images printed. That's a, that that's pretty rare. So that, that's, that's awesome. Um, so I kind of want to know a little bit more about, cause this is at that moment you had decided that you were going to stay at San Antonio College. Is that, is that correct to, to fulfill this? Uh, oh no, that's not what happened.

Daniel Milnor: 00:14:31 No, I, I was there knowing it was a short term gain. I still had the shooting scholarship and the geology school in play had, I wanted to go that direction. But once I started shooting photographs, I, I was like, oh, this is kind of what I've been waiting to do my whole life. And so I looked around for a four year that was in state that had a good photo journalism department. And at the time this, that the school that stood out was a Texas ut Austin. Oh. So, and at the time, this is pretty funny now because, uh, ut Austin, like all other colleges in America have changed dramatically and they're so, they're so expensive. It's what people are paying to go to school there now as beauty on my comprehension. So literally, this was like two weeks before classes started and I was like, I think I want to go to Texas.

Daniel Milnor: 00:15:23 So I applied and they were like, yeah, sure. Come on up. I got, I got in, I paid more for books than I did for tuition. I think my tuition was less than 300 bucks for the, for the semester. Oh my goodness. And Yeah, and I studied photojournalism and I had minors in Spanish and anthropology and fo it was good. The program during that there in the 80s had been one of the premier programs in the country. And when I got there, I would say that the program was in somewhat of a trough. It hadn't sort of kept up with some other programs like the University of Missouri, Western Kentucky, these were photojournalism schools. Um, and then you had the big art schools, like you know, our art center in Pasadena. You had Parsons and an ICP in New York and you know, there was a very different kinds of things.

Daniel Milnor: 00:16:07 We were very specific to photojournalism. And so I realized very shortly after getting to school that whatever I was going to come out with was going to be on my shoulders, not from the faculty saying you're going to do this. Because the faculty was training us to go in one direction. And I realized that the media lead that I needed to go in another direction and consequently I sort of fell out of favor, I think with some of the faculty who just looked at me as either arrogant or, uh, something. Because I said, look, I want to know black and white. I want to photograph black and white, but I need to know color. Because if I get out, I want to be a magazine photographer. Everybody shooting transparency, I can't, I can't shoot, try excel all the time. And they were like, no, no, no.

Daniel Milnor: 00:16:48 You're going to shoot tri-x and a 28 millimeter and everyone's going to love it. And I knew that was not going to be the case. And so I got very fortunate, um, I started shooting color right away and I bought a police scanner, an old police scanner, and every night I would drive from my horrible apartment to the I 35, which splits Austin, uh, north to south. And I would park park underneath the [inaudible] and I would turn on the police scanner and I would just wait because East Austin at that time was very unsettled. There were huge gang problems, there were, there was a lot of crime. There's a lot of stuff happening and at the time I thought, oh, as a photo journalist, this is kind of what I'm supposed to photograph. So I would go and I and I just would show, you know the police scanner would crackle and it would say, you know, box alarm, whatever.

Daniel Milnor: 00:17:39 Or they had codes for domestic violence, they had codes for shooting and I learned what all the codes were and I would show up. Oftentimes I was the first person on the scene. I'd be there before any law enforcement. And this was another education that I never saw coming was how to navigate in the field. And when you, when your police scanner goes off and you roll up on a crime scene and there's no one there, it's not just about photography, it's about all these logistics and scenarios that you have to understand before you can actually get in. Make successful pictures and get out, you know, where do you park your vehicle? If you park and you block an emergency responder, you're in trouble. If something goes sideways and your truck is blocked and you can't get out, then you're in trouble. Um, all these different things, you know, it does.

Daniel Milnor: 00:18:22 Somebody need help for more than, you know, it does that. Trump's making pictures kind of things. And so while I was out one night photographing a house fire, a guy approached me, older guy, suit and tie, oddly enough even at a fire and he was the Austin Fire Department photographer, guy named Erwin had. And Irwin said, you know, I've seen you around at these fires. Who are you? What are you doing? And I told him, it's photo journalism student. And he said to me, do you want to know how to print color? And I said, yeah, because we don't, we're not, they're not going to let us print color for like another two years. He said, come to the fire department, I have a dark room, I'll teach you how to print color. And he did. And Irwin was, was really great. He was a guy that like bent over backwards to help me.

Daniel Milnor: 00:19:06 And, uh, you know, at school you had these Joe blow processors to do a color print, which take about 10,000 years to make a print. And you know, they're good and they're fun. But after a while you're like, okay, I'd love to not have to spend 45 minutes on this print. So Irwin had an automated color processor and an enlarger with a color head. And he taught me not only how to print color, but then also told me how to use color settings to printed black and white. And that like blew my mind open. So I got lucky and, um, I had a good run at the paper. I started to freelance while I was still in school. I was doing assignments for the daily Texan, which was the paper at ut. Really good paper. And the people I was working with. I mean, um, John McConico who went on to AP, John Moore, who's at AP John Fronts, uh, John Mark Bizu who won two Pulitzers at AP, you know, these were my, um, we didn't hang out a whole lot, but these were my, my fellow students, Scott Dalton, who, who's covered the drug war in Columbia for 10 years.

Daniel Milnor: 00:20:04 Um, I went to school with some really amazing photographers. Oh my [inaudible]

Raymond: 00:20:09 goodness. So just before we move on, how long were you a a, a nightcrawler going and photographing these, you know, possibly horrific scenes. How long were you doing that for?

Daniel Milnor: 00:20:21 I did that in Austin for a couple of years. And then my first internship as I got out of school and I looked forever to try to find an internship. And this is kind of a long story with that. I'll spare you the details, but at the time it was incredibly difficult to find internships and I kept getting rejected for all kinds of reasons. Very rarely was it about imagery. It was always about extraneous things that would keep me from getting these internships. But I finally got one, I think, I don't know for certain, I think someone called on my behalf, I think I know who it was that called them on my behalf, but he has never admitted doing so. But anyway, I've got this internship, Arizona, Republican Phoenix, and it was amazing because the republic had a huge budget. It's, you know, it's a big paper.

Daniel Milnor: 00:21:05 It's state paper. They did international, national, local news. They covered the whole state that a big staff. Um, but I worked the three to 11, 3:00 PM to 11:00 PM shift as an intern and after seven o'clock, because it was a morning paper, it, unless a UFO landed in the middle of downtown, nothing you shot after 7:00 PM was good to make the paper basically. So I had my police scanner and I would leave the paper and I would drive straight south on central avenue and I would pull over and south Phoenix at the seat at the time was a war zone. It was not a happy place to be after sunset. And so for me as a photographer again, and I was like, oh, I'm a journalist. I'm supposed to be doing this stuff. So I started shooting the same thing and it was worse than Austin.

Daniel Milnor: 00:21:53 It was, you know, every night there were, there were, there's a lot of bad stuff happening. And so I got to know some of the police department. I got to know some of the fire department. And I also began to understand editorial policy and marketing and advertising and how what you saw in the paper was not necessarily representative of the news because I started coming back with images that were not popular in the newsroom because management saw them and said, no one's going to buy the paper if we're showing this stuff. And we're trying to sell ads for golf courses and they don't want to see domestic violence shootouts in south Phoenix. And so I come. And so what I started to do is I compiled this huge folder of all the work that I've made in Phoenix in the middle of the night. And when I quit at the paper and moved on, I went to the photo editor and just dropped it on his desk and said, you know, you can kind of deny that this is happening in the city, but this is happening in the city.

Daniel Milnor: 00:22:48 You know, we can't, you're supposed to be a news organization. You have to cover everything. Yes, the golf course is important. Yes. The Phoenix Suns are important and the cardinals and I get it. It's, you know, and that's the thing about a community paper is you have to cover the community. And thankfully by the time I left South, Phoenix was making some progress and I don't know what it's like now, but you know, most of these places have been gentrified to some degree. The violence levels are down. I mean, there are exceptions in the country where there's some pretty dicey places out there. But, um, I learned a lot, you know, and the fact that I could speak Spanish, uh, the police loved it because I would show up sometimes at like domestic disputes and translate where the police, yeah, they would say, hey, you speak Spanish.

Daniel Milnor: 00:23:27 You guys speak Spanish? Well, Hey, what would he saying to her? And vice versa. And, and I'm like, and at the time I forget what I was probably like 22 and I'm, I'm walking around like, is this really happening? And uh, and just crazy scenes, you know, I mean, I got shot at once in [inaudible] at a little league baseball game. There were people all over the place. There had to be 2000 people around. And I was photographing a, a kid who was part of the gang in Austin and I'd known him for a long time. We'd spent like four months together and we were hanging out. Uh, I was with his gang and we were all sort of hanging around drinking beer, hanging out in this little section of the buttery over that was theirs. And someone came in and said, hey, so-and-so from this rival gang called Egv east of audio there, he's at this other location and you know, we've got to go get him.

Daniel Milnor: 00:24:18 And so they all run to go. And I was like, well, I want to go to take pictures. And I didn't know what get him meant. No. I was like, oh, they're probably gonna fight. And so we roll up and I get out of the car and like an idiot first of all at a 24 millimeter lens on, which is mistake number one. Number two, I've strobe on major mistake number three. I put myself in the worst possible position, which was between the guys that I was with and between the guy that they were going after, but there were people all over it. So there was a little league baseball game happening to my right. There was another one behind me and I was like, nothing's gonna, nothing's gonna happen here. And then I heard a window break car window and it just, I saw literally it was like, it was as if a gunshot had gone off.

Daniel Milnor: 00:25:07 All the people at the little league games collectively went like this. Everybody froze, duck and started taking cover. And again, I'm like looking around, not quite putting it together. And then full auto rounds guide, the guy whose car window was broken gets it's trapped in the parking lot. He stands up, turns around with fully automatic and just unloads on the parking lot. So like I'm hearing these rounds hitting and I'm like, maybe I should take cover. I didn't take any photographs, which is not not good. But I remember looking down at my feet and there was a mom and a little boy behind the front wheel of a car and, and you could tell that this was not, this was not the first time they'd had to do this, that this was, this kind of violence was relatively common. And so the whole, you know, 10 seconds goes by, I have no idea what I did.

Daniel Milnor: 00:25:58 I wake up and I'm next to her on the ground behind the car and the guy, that's stupid. The shooting is driven away. And I waited and I waited for the police to show up and nobody showed up. Nobody came. And about 10 minutes later, the games were gone again, everyone's back plan. And I was like, wow, this is a, you can get used to anything. Wow. So did tell me that you made the conscious decision not to take any photos in that moment? No. Hell No. I didn't know what I was doing. I froze. I mean, I, there's a, there's a 10 to 15 second period where I have no idea what I did. I got from standing down to the ground. So I did something smart. But the other thing was the distance involved with a 24 and a strobe, if I'd pop the strobe, it would have highlighted my position, which is probably not a good idea. And with a 24, he would have been, you know, microscopic in the frame and I just, it was just a bad move. It was bad all the way around, but I didn't get shot. So.

Raymond: 00:26:54 Yeah. Well, yeah, you're here today and I'm, I'm, I'm thankful for that. I'm sure it's, you're thankful for that as well. Wow. Uh,

Daniel Milnor: 00:26:59 but I also realized that, that, you know, the sort of getting shot at thing was not something that I was keen on. Oh yeah. And the other thing was the idea of having a picture of the guy doing the shooting was not what was intriguing to me. What was intriguing to me was the game starting again five minutes later. And the fact that this was conditioned, this was a conditioned response to, to perpetual simmering sort of crime and violence and you get used to it and all of a sudden, you know, uh, it's normal. It's like, oh, they're not shooting at me. This is totally fine. I'll be fine. That's what was intriguing to me. That is really the moment that I went from being a photo journalist to a documentary photographer that I was not the front lines and stuff was not, I don't think I have the fortitude to do the front line stuff, but what I did have was the fortitude to do longterm stories.

Raymond: 00:27:54 Yeah. I definitely want to get into to you as a documentarian and doing these long form stories, uh, as I think that sets you apart from, from a lot of other photographers. But as you mentioned as well, a lot of people are, you know, we're, we're still kind of, uh, under the impression that you should go to college to make it in a profession that you want to be in. But with the rising cost of college, a lot of people are wondering, you know, is photography something that you really need to go to school for? So I'm sure that when you made the decision to go to, uh, Texas and Austin to, uh, to go specifically pretty much for photography, I want know, uh, what did you hope to have or what did you hope to know by the time you left school? And do you think that it's still as important to go to college today, uh, as it was when you went,

Daniel Milnor: 00:28:50 what did I help to get out of it, you know, fame for

Raymond: 00:28:52 in a famous I right out of college.

Daniel Milnor: 00:28:55 No. And uh, and I had an apartment right in the middle of all the sororities, which was a good move. That was, that was a good move. Uh, in hindsight now I ha, let me think about that. What was my goal? Getting out? I wanted to be a professional photographer. And at the time there were, there was a clear foot path that you followed to go from a to B to c to d and how you became a photographer. Uh, the short answer to the second part of the question is it's not necessary. It's not critical, essential to go to college. However, in my opinion, it is critical to actually learn photography. So whether you do that in college or you do that with a mentorship program where you do that through a series of workshops or a combination of all the above, if you're going to be a legitimate photographer, and this is, people are going to take offense at some of this I know, but there's a big difference between being an online photographer and being an actual photographer.

Daniel Milnor: 00:29:49 There are two industries working simultaneously. You have the online photo community and you have the on on earth, realtime human being, editors, agents, agencies, assignments and professional photographers. These are two entirely separate groups of people that oftentimes don't even recognize one another. They don't know any, they don't know each other. So, for example, you can have a guy that has a million Instagram followers who does youtube that has a ton of followers and blah, blah, blah. And if you said to any agent or editor or photo art buyer in the photo industry and said, have you ever heard of this person? There's a good chance they're going to say no idea who that is because that's the online photo world. The online photo world to me is very deceptive because you have a lot of people selling things. And so, you know, hey look at me. And basically it's based on numbers based on following and traffic.

Daniel Milnor: 00:30:39 And that's a very dangerous thing. Very different thing from saying, here's a really good photographer. I know tons of good photographers, elite level people who have no social following whatsoever. They just, cause they're busy working all the time. They're actually doing real assignments, they're doing editorial work, they're doing commercial advertising, fashion and fine art, automotive, et Cetera. So these two very different things. There was no internet when I got out of school. So my goal was to get into the, into the photography world for real. I wanted to make my living from photography and that meant I wanted to have health insurance, I wanted to have money in the bank. I wanted to, I didn't want to, I've never been a believer in this concept of the starving artist. I think that there are plenty of starving artists, but I think that that in some ways is something that you have to mentally get over.

Daniel Milnor: 00:31:25 There's no reason if you're a, if you're capable of making unique work and that's easier said than done, but if you're capable of making unique work, there's no reason to starve. You know, you have to, you have to be intelligent about it. But there's a way of doing it. At least there was at the time. So I got out of school knowing that I needed to get a job at a newspaper that was step one on. And then while I was at the newspaper, after I had been there for awhile, I would start freelancing for editorial clients on the side magazine clients. And then eventually when you had enough magazine clients, you would leave the newspaper and you would jump into the magazine world. And from the magazine world that led to commercial photography and from commercial photography to advertising where the serious money is, and that's still true to this day, is advertising. Photography is really where the massive budgets are. Not nearly as massive as they once were, but the ultimate end game was to be able to shoot advertising very sporadically, just enough for me to be able to pay for my own documentary projects. That's really the rub is most documentary photographers, it seems like, or a significant percentage are doing other kinds of work to try to make money to do their own projects. That's the, that's the key. It's hard. It's not, it's getting harder every day.

Raymond: 00:32:40 Yeah. So as a documentarian, in your own words, what would you say is your job as the photographer? What do you have to do or capture to consider your job a success?

Daniel Milnor: 00:32:55 I think you have to make original work. Um, that's, that's the key. It's very easy for me to go online and see what somebody else has done and go out and copy it. There's people who are doing that every day, every generation of photographer, every generation. There's a handful of people worldwide that come along that add something new to the conversation. I am not one of those people. I wish I was, but I'm not. But every, you know, you have Sebastian, you had, let's go way back. You have Jean Smith, w Jean Smith, documentary photographer, probably the best documentary photographer that's ever lived after Jean Smith. The next person that jumps out to me would be somebody who likes semesters. So Gado. And so Gado was not only a good photographer, but he was able to secure funding. He was able to secure longterm assignments. He was able to envision where his projects would be in 10 years time.

Daniel Milnor: 00:33:45 And so God would also work on a project for 10 years before it was before it was released. So he did, you know, uh, the, his first project, big one that got recognition was the famine in Ethiopia. And then he did a project in the Americas than he did workers. And these were 10 year increments. And so Gada would come to someone like Kodak where I worked at one point and he would say, I want x amount of money. And they would give it to him because he come in and say, if you give me this money, this is what's going to transpire. And it was all worked out over like a five, six, seven year period. And you're like, nobody else is doing this. While it's remarkable, you want to be able to key for really the key to be an a to being a photographer is to try to tell unique stories in a way that people can immediately recognize who did the work. And that's hard today when there's so many people working in. So much of the work you see looks exactly the same. And it's hard. It took 10 years of shooting every day to figure out what I was doing. Literally 10 years.

Raymond: 00:34:43 I believe it. I believe it. So was it, you'll work for the paper, which seems very running gun. Do it now let's tell the story right away, which is, maybe I'm wrong, but I would consider kind of short form. Uh, did that kind of, um, open you up to the idea of long form stuff or, or get you excited for that?

Daniel Milnor: 00:35:05 Yeah, so the, the daily paper, especially a big day daily where you're getting multiple assignments every day, you get up in the morning, you go into the paper, there's a little basket that has your name on it and it is a stack of paper. And each one of those is an assignment. And the beauty of that is that, and we're shooting at the time, I'm shooting 35 millimeter transparency film. So I'm shooting slide film. This is not easy. It's not easy. You've got to get it right. Your exposure has to be right. And the assignment range on a typical day would go something like this. Um, city council meeting in a windowless room with three people and overhead fluorescent lighting, which, which meant you had to put a green Magenta filter on your camera and a Green Gel on your strobe, balance it out for the, you know, with, with a hundred speed, Fuji Chrome pushed to three 20, you could shoot it f for at a, you know, 30th of a second with a strobe bounced off the ceiling and you do this and these pictures are horrible and they suck and no one should have ever assigned this.

Daniel Milnor: 00:36:02 But you've got it and you're like cursing the paper and you're cursing the person that assigned it and the people in the city council don't want you there and you don't want to be there and you, so you bang that thing out and you're like, okay, well get me Outta here. And then you get in the truck and your beeper goes off. At the time we had beepers, no cell phones and it's, and it's always nine one one. It's always a panic emergency. Hey, this fell through the gaps. You know, you have to go photograph the mayor. And so you go, okay. And you go and you shoot a portrait of the mayor. And then on the way back to the paper, there's a brush fire that fires up in downtown Phoenix and there's houses on fire and they're like, go shoot the brush fire.

Daniel Milnor: 00:36:40 So you're going from all one thing to another all day long. And it is the ultimate training ground. But it's frustrating because you don't get time. So on this on the side, on the days of the week that I was not working or from, if I work through 11 I was still up at whatever, six in the morning I would be out shooting projects. And so what you were hoping for was that the paper would occasionally would throw you a bone and say, look, we're going to give you a picture package on, you know, the community section. And they ended up running three, four, five pictures and that, what's your appetite for [inaudible]? This is great. And also my, you know, I'm, I'm at the half price bookstore in Austin looking at books of my idols. I'm looking at Salgado, I'm looking at Nachtwey, I'm looking at Jill Perez and I'm looking at an Alex Webb and Maggie Steber and I'm looking at the books and the work that they're putting out. And I'm like, that's who I want to be. I want, these are multi year, you know, 50 to a hundred images over a five to 10 year period on the same story. That is intriguing to me. It still is.

Raymond: 00:37:45 Yeah. Yeah. So, so when, when did you, what was, I guess your first assignment of, of this caliber? Was it something that you had given yourself that you decided to tackle? Did you get an idea from somewhere else? Was it commissioned?

Daniel Milnor: 00:37:59 So all of the best work I've ever done. This is really sad, but I think it's true for about 95% of all the photographers out there. The best work I've ever done was all self assigned because what I learned very quickly, and I'm, I just, I turned 50 in January, so I'm, I got the tail end of what I would consider the last sort of real photo industry that existed as ar, as the generations before us new. So there was a real editorial world. People were paying rates, you could get contracts, all of these things that are really out the window, these, so, but I learned very quickly that to get a multi-day assignment was rare. So you know, I'd get a three or four day assignment editorial assignment. Those were few and far between. Most of them were these quick hit things that I thought, this isn't helping me at all.

Daniel Milnor: 00:38:51 I'm shooting all these pictures and these pictures are other people's pictures. These are not mine. Yes. So in 19 1997 I'm living in southern California. I'm assisting for a photographer named Rick recommend. And Rick, who I think is actually from New Mexico. Um, Rick was really helpful to me because he sort of took me under his wing, taught me a lot of things about photography, not actual image making, but taught me about invoicing and assignments and working with editors and all this stuff that I had no experience with. I didn't know what I was doing. And so Rick, I assisted for Rick for several years, um, and he was super helpful to me and he would get multi-day assignments. He would do stuff for the geographic and life and time and people and all these things. So he was, uh, he was a working, uh, editorial guy all the time.

Daniel Milnor: 00:39:39 And so, but I realized that the odds of me becoming him were very slim. And so I decided my wife works for Canon or worked for Canon for 30 years, and she got a call from someone she knew that worked at Kodak and they said, Hey, we're looking for rep in southern California. And my wife said, oh, and she'd get my husband to do it, he'd be great. So I did that job for a few years and to get the job I had to sign a conflict of interest letter that said I would no longer do assignments because if I was doing assignments then I'd be competing with the people that I was trying to help at Kodak and I said, okay, I'll sign this if you sign something that says I get all the free film, Chem host and paper I can possibly use, which for Kodak was nothing.

Daniel Milnor: 00:40:23 Of course they signed it, they signed it, but it was not a big deal and so I sold all my equipment except for like a 35 millimeter thick guy to like 50 and a 35 and for the next four years, the only pictures I made were longterm projects of my own assignment and I realized at the end of four years what I was onto and that this was the best work I've ever done and the only work I wanted to do. So I didn't want to do magazines work anymore. I didn't want to do commercial photography, I just wanted to do longterm projects. That is very difficult to do in the u s because there's so little market for it. And every year the market was getting smaller and smaller and now there's virtually nothing. There's virtually no outlets for that kind of work outside of the books.

Raymond: 00:41:07 That is a shame. That is a shame. Uh, I know growing up and I, I talked about this in the beginner photography podcast Facebook group before. I've always said that kind of when I first got into photography, my dream was always like to follow the band, you know what I mean? Like, or follow the team from, from the underdogs to like winning the, you know, the world series that year or whatever it was, or coming out with a granny winning album. Um, and, but cause you never really saw those photos. You'd see everything in between and you would never see the entire book. And that's when, that's, that's where when you would go to these bookstores and you would see these photo books of these, of these singular events, you know, a singular topic that, that took up the entire book. It really puts you in that place because suddenly you knew the story and it didn't take any words at all. So I want to talk more about the storytelling aspect of photography. As I've said many times on the podcast that a great photo is so much more than just the sum of its settings and a lot of what makes a photo great is the story that it tells now specializing in these longterm stories. D, How much of the story is planned out and you know like, like, like you know what you want to capture versus just showing up and simply reacting?

Daniel Milnor: 00:42:30 Well it entirely depends on the project and it depends on two primary ingredients, which are time and access. How much time do you, and what's your access? Like assets back in the mid nineties was very easy. If you had a press credential, you get anything you want and you'd show up in the middle of nowhere and some part of the country and without a press pass and people would be like, hey, you want to come into our house, we'll make lunch. You could hang out, whatever those days are. Those days are gone. Everybody's suspicious now. So time and access are really critical. But for me, I was working at the newspaper in Austin at the daily texts and I was freelancing for like anyone who would hire me that doing these, you know, little assignments here and there. And I went to half price books one day, and I'll never forget this, I go into the photo book section and there's two books.

Daniel Milnor: 00:43:16 There's one book called Mexico, which is by a magnum photographer named my boss who I met 15 years ago. And his, his primary work at that time was a multi like 15 year product on Islam all around the world, which is this remarkable book, if you can get it. But he did this little book called Mexico and Mexico was basically all black and white, all like, uh, and it was just kind of random. It was like a personal notebook from Mexico. And I looked at it and I'm like, oh, I like this. And then I opened this book called Telex, Iran by a photographer named Jill Perez, who's a French guy who, a magnum photographer as well. And I just froze because one, I had never seen pictures like this before. They were so different and so sophisticated compared to what I was looking at. It literally freaked me out.

Daniel Milnor: 00:44:05 I wasn't entirely sure what to make of it, but the book was about the Iranian Revolution in 79 and GL had been there for a long time working on this project and this story and the book, the copy, the writing, and the book were telex is between he and that Magnum office in Paris. If I have that, if I remember this correctly. And what got me was that was the honesty in the telexes because here's a guy that's already established at Magnum. He's got multiple stories under his belt. He's an incredible photographer. He's a very intelligent guy that's way more than just a photographer. But there's a vulnerability in these telexes that I did not expect to see of of the, of the doubt that he had in his mind and the uncertainty and the challenges. And I was like, wow, I'm in the same boat that he is like he's, even though he's way better than I am.

Daniel Milnor: 00:44:54 And he's way more established and he's got these books, you know, he's, there's hope for me because he's, there are cracks in his armor, he's admitting. And so, but I didn't buy that book, which was a big mistake because that was a first edition telex Iran, which is now probably worth like $5,000 but anyway, I was like, I can't, I can't buy this. It's too intimidating for me to look at this. So I bought the Abbas book, which I still have, but it haunted me that I'd never bought this book. And then like five years ago, I'm sitting in a cafe in Brooklyn and I had my camera on the table in front of me, which is an emperor like a, and a guy walks by and he goes, nice camera. And I look up and it's jeal and it turns out that the coffee shop I was sitting at is like half a block from his studio.

Daniel Milnor: 00:45:38 And I said, holy cow. I go, he's Y'all Perez. And he sat down and then he goes, hey, let's go to the studio. And then I called the founder of blurb who was in New York at the time and I said, you're never going to believe this. I'm going to show Perez a studio. And she was like, Hey, I want to go to show a studio. So we went to a studio and we had lunch with him and he gave us like a t. It was amazing. And he and I wrote letters back and forth for quite a while and I told him, I said, I screwed up. I didn't buy your book. I should've bought your book, you know, in Austin all those years ago. And then something funny happened about six months ago, a friend of mine moved from California to Wisconsin, a really good friend, good photographer.

Daniel Milnor: 00:46:20 And he called me and he said, we're having a going away party. Make sure you come to the going away party. I said, okay. So we get to the party and he goes, where's your truck? I said, oh, I parked around there. He goes back your truck up over here. And he opens up the back of his truck and it's filled with photo books. And he said, look, I can't take these with me. And the first book on the stack on top was Tellico Iran and he's like, and he's like, here's the book I know you're really going to want no. So I got my copy. Wow. What an amazing story. What an amazing story. That must have felt really good in that moment. Oh Man. That book is, it's still freaks me out. I mean he gave me a stack of books that are theirs.

Daniel Milnor: 00:47:06 To me, books are evidence. You can't deny what's in there and they are, they are the quality bar that has already been set. So if I'm, if I'm coming to new Mecca, northern New Mexico and I'm going to do a project about the culture here, then I have books like Norman mouse costs, the descendants that, and Jimmy Santiago was the one who wrote the copy for the book, a Jack Woody at twin palms published it and Norman Mascot is the photographer. That book is there. It's my responsibility as a photographer to know about that book and to know what's in it. And I'm either going to add to that conversation or I'm not doing the project because it's already been done and it's been done at a very high level. And that's one of the big things that you'll see today with the online photo community is there's very little research done.

Daniel Milnor: 00:47:55 So with sometimes I'll see, I'll hear about a project and it's being hyped and everyone's like, oh, that's amazing and it's great, it's amazing. And I look at it and I go, not only is it not amazing, it was already done five years ago by So-and-so, and when they did a much better job, it's that the new photographer was able to learn how to market the thing and spin it with through social and marketing numbers and traffic and be like, well look, I'm getting all this buzz. But ultimately when you look at the work you go, this is just not that good. That one of the big misconceptions about photography in the digital age is that it's easy now because of all the technology and that is completely inaccurate. It's as difficult to make a good image today as it always has been. And it's just as rare because to get a lifetime sort of signature image you need, you need the right light, you need the right timing, the right composition.

Daniel Milnor: 00:48:44 And it's really hard. And it's rare. I mean, I go maybe if I'm lucky a couple of times a year I'll get something that I think would fit if I, if I've reduced my life down to the top 20 images, it's rare that something new comes along and knock something out of that original 20 it's really hard to get work like that. And so I think the Internet and the technology fools us into thinking that what we're making is really good. Most of the time it's not. And that's totally fine. I think as a photographer you need to be prepared to fail the vast majority of the time. And for some reason when I was in school, and again I'm 50 so it was a little bit different philosophy back then, but failure wasn't viewed in the same way. You kind of expect that you are going to fail most of the time.

Daniel Milnor: 00:49:29 And when you put your work up in front of your peers, they were going to tear you apart piece by piece. And that's typically what happened. And then suddenly failure wasn't viewed the same way and you weren't supposed to talk about it and you weren't supposed to admit it and whatever. But I think, I mean, look, if you're a photographer and I'm a photographer and you put your work down in front of me and I put my work down, you're going to see things you like and you're gonna see things you don't like. And you have to be able to say, look, Milner, you know, I, I see where you're going here, but you're not there yet. It's not good enough. And then I have to be able to set thick enough skin to go, hey, well thanks for being honest with me. What do you think I should do?

Daniel Milnor: 00:50:04 Like what's missing? What? How do I fill the gaps or whatever. And so that's the kind of education that you get when you're learning photography in a school. It's not about technical stuff. You know ut Austin, the tech pickle, literally the entire amount of time that will be spent on technical was probably less than a week. And the rest of the three and a half, four years of the stuff was had nothing to do with technique. It had everything to do with process about story, about editing, about sequencing, about design. Those are the important things. The equipment, nobody cared. I mean, you know, people had of Nikon FM body with a 28 and a roll of triax and they were like here. That was the extent of the gear conversation. Sure. W we probably spent more time talking about printing technique and photographic technique. Yeah, cause it's con it's complicated.

Raymond: 00:50:58 So, okay. So, so we talked about when you first started creating a a gallery of say 20 images of your life's work, it's very hard to, to, to break that, to move one of those out and replace it with a new photo today. Yeah. So if we wanted to do that, if we want to take better photos, just so that I'm clear, the best way to do that is constant critiquing, constant ripping apart our own photos to, to, to continue to grow. Is that it?

Daniel Milnor: 00:51:32 Well, I would say the first step is you have to practice, you know, photography is a, is a physical skill, right? It's, it's hand eye coordination. It's anticipation, it's knowledge of your subject matter. It's an understanding of light, of timing, of composition. But it's, it's like working out, it's a skill. It's like riding, riding your bicycle. You ride every day for 30 days. At the end of 30 days you're like, well, I feel pretty fit. But that first day you're riding and you're like, oh my God, I think I'm going to die. Like that's, and photography's the same. So for example, um, I had not worked on a project for quite awhile and two and a half weeks ago, I flew to Albania and I shot every day for two weeks in Albania trying to produce a project. And the first couple of days in Albania I was terrible.

Daniel Milnor: 00:52:16 I mean I'm looking at things happening and saying, oh, there was my phone. Oh, I should have shot that. I just wasn't good because I'm sloppy. I'm slow, I'm not looking, I'm not anticipating, I'm fumbling around and I've been doing this for 30 years. So practicing and staying sharp, um, I think being aware of what has already been done and, and understanding where you fit in as a photographer and what the context of you, what your context is in the grand scheme of things. Really important. Let's say for example, I want to do a project on the border. The border has been photographed in a million times over. I've done multiple projects down there myself as have many of my friends. So if I go to an art buyer or an agent in New York and I want to show my work and I'm showing a project on the border, I better know what's already been done.

Daniel Milnor: 00:53:02 Because if I put something in front of this person and I say, look at me, look how original I am. And she looks at me and says, you know, so-and-so, and so and so and so and so already did the same project. It makes me look really bad. So even if I, even if these people have already done the project and I can sit with her and I can say, look, I know that bill and Mary and Tom all did this project before, but this is why I did it and this is I'm Kay, I'm going to take the baton from them and I'm going to move at one step forward because I'm adding this other element or I have a different angle or I got better access. And so you're adding to what's been done and for whatever reason today, I see there's a lot of aversion to this idea that you have to know what's been done because people want to believe that they're amazing and they want to believe that very quickly that you know, you get out of school and you're like, I want to be famous, you know, I want big assignments and do this and that and you kind of, that's a hard game to win.

Daniel Milnor: 00:53:54 And I think if you're, there's a big difference between being hot for a year as a photographer and having a 30 year career. Those are two entirely. It's a, it's a marathon and a sprint and I'd always rather be in the marathon conversation and to be in the marathon you have to do some basic fieldwork and some groundwork and have some basic knowledge, so practicing having a fundamentally sound, but then also just learning who you are with a camera because if you can't make original photographs, there is no chance that you will have a 30 year career. None because there's too many people who can do everything. Jack of all trades, low level commercial photographer has a studio, what do you shoot? I'll shoot anything that comes in. I'll shoot a wedding, I'll shoot a portrait, I'll shoot a product, I'll shoot this, I'll shoot that.

Daniel Milnor: 00:54:41 There's 10 thousands of these people out there and what you end up doing is you get into these pricing wars where the price goes down and down and down because everybody's competing for these small jobs. That's a hard run. I'd much rather take my chances, have a part time job doing something else, learn who I am as a photographer or be able to make original work. And then when clients see that original work, they say if, if we want that kind of photography, the only person who can do it is that person that has value. That's why people still pay for photography is because certain people do things that nobody else can do and there's value in that.

Raymond: 00:55:16 Yeah. So you mentioned being not being a jack of all trades and if you want to have a 30 year career, you have to really be a master at something. You have had that 30 year career in your own words, what are you a master of wasting time? That's why you're here with me today. Yeah, that makes sense.

Daniel Milnor: 00:55:38 Photographically, I don't know. I don't know if there's anything that I would call, it's hard to call myself a master at anything. I think that there are things that I've learned how to do well and there's things that took me a long time to figure out, but once I figured them out, I think that they, they've helped. I think this is probably not a great answer for you, but I think what I realized a long time ago was that it wasn't enough anymore to just be a photographer. You need to be a more well rounded human being. Because here's the funny thing, there is a lot of photographers out there a lot more than ever. So let's say that you want a commercial assignment and the creative agency that's in charge of assigning the photographer, a photographer, they're looking around, they're looking around and when they meet with you, let's say you go to a portfolio review and there's, they're looking at 10 photographers that day and you walk up there and I walk up and our friends walk up and this are our buyers looking at you and she's looking at your portfolio and she's looking at my portfolio.

Daniel Milnor: 00:56:39 She's not just looking at your portfolio, she's looking at you and she's listening to you. And she's looking at your, how you're dressed, she's listening to your vocabulary to see you have a sense of humor. Does he have a massive ego? And more importantly, are the clients going to like this person? Can I leave this person alone on the set with a client and they will not embarrass me? Will the clients like them? Will they, if something goes wrong, will they be able to handle it? What's their, what's their crew like? What's their plan B? Like all of these different things that in photo school, they don't teach you anything about this. Right? So you learned that being a photographer is about being a well rounded, intelligent human being that is continually on the hunt for new knowledge. The photography will come with practice and with sort of perseverance. But all the peripheral things to me are more important today than they ever have been because it's way more than the pictures. That's it.

Raymond: 00:57:37 So what was I going to get into this for a few more questions, but is this one of the reasons why you are, um, according to your website, you, you believe that, uh, social media that you are a complete and total non-believer of social media and that these platforms have done irreparable damage to human communication skills and attention span?

Daniel Milnor: 00:58:02 Jeez. Did I say that? Well, it sounds, whoever wrote the copy on your website, that sounds negative. Uh, yeah. But yeah, in essence, I believe exactly that, but there's a little background here. So I don't want social media. I think things like Instagram, uh, are proving themselves to be one of the most detrimental, uh, contributions to our society that I think I've ever seen. I always kind of joke with my friends. I'm not sure that that's a species we will survive. Instagram, you know, it's unleashing a LE, a level of consumerism on the planet that we simply can't sustain. It's unleashing a, a battle against the environment that we can't sustain or can't win. But this goes way back. So, um, and here's the ironic part is that I was one of the first people that I know in the entire world to be on Facebook.

Daniel Milnor: 00:58:57 I went to New York to do an assignment and it was for someone that had something to do with the Central Park Committee. So I'm talking to her in New York and she says Facebook. And I'm like, what's that? And she goes, oh, this is new thing called Facebook. When you get back to California, you should sign up for it. And so I'm like, okay. I fly back to California, I sign up on Facebook. No one I know is on Facebook, not a single person, it's just me and I'm on there. And there's other people on there. I'm like, Hey, this is kinda cool. And same thing when in scrap hats, I'm walking down the street in San Francisco. Friend mine calls me and goes, hey, there's this new thing called Instagram. You should check it out. I stop in the middle of the street, I download the app and I start Fitbit, fitbit, start taking pictures and posting on Instagram.

Daniel Milnor: 00:59:35 So I was on these things long before any of my friends were on there and including all my friends who are basically given their entire life to be platforms. But six years ago I was here in New Mexico. My birthday is January 1st I woke up on my birthday and I was like, I don't believe in this anymore. This is not what we were originally sold of what this is. I said, I am watching this. These networks destroy my friends. They are like skittish, scared little creatures who can't get through a conversation without looking at their phone. They're insecure, their work has gone downhill and the work they're producing is only being produced to try to drive numbers on these social networks. And it's garbage cause it looks like everybody else's, it looks like Instagram content. So I called the founder of blurb and I called him the marketing director of Laura, who was my immediate boss at the time.

Daniel Milnor: 01:00:26 And I said, uh, I know this is probably isn't going to go over well, but I'm deleting seven networks right now and I don't ever want to go back on his networks. And the marketing director said at the time, she said, I hate them too. I think this is all, you know, go ahead. So I thought, oh, that's great. And then the founder said, go ahead and do it, but write about why, why does you're doing it. And so I did and I did a couple, I deleted social media, which is by far the highest traffic post I've ever done. And look at you went to those numbers. Well it's because here's something funny happened. So two weeks goes by and I went through detox. I would literally, in moments of like call, just pick up your phone just to look at first. And then I just pick it off for no reason.

Daniel Milnor: 01:01:09 And I'd be in the field shooting and I'd go, oh, I should check like Facebook. As I'm walking down the street somewhere trying to shoot, I'd be thinking about Instagram and I thought this is bad. So two weeks detox. And then after two weeks I kind of came through the veil and I looked back and I thought, man, I am I, that was just not good. So I, uh, wrote a post, the posted got all this traffic. I don't know the specific numbers, but it was by far more than any post done. But something funny happened, kind of tragic, is that people began to write me asking for help. They were saying, I'm physically addicted. I lost my house, I lost my job, I lost my family. I can't stay off of Facebook. I'm on Instagram 60 hours a week. I'm on nerves, nervous, I'm unhappy.

Daniel Milnor: 01:01:53 I'm taking depression medication. So I had to write a follow up post and saying, I'm not a medical person. I'm not a psychiatrist. If you need medical help, please seek, you know, attend, seek medical attention or psychiatric help. But that's not my role. I'm just not qualified to, to help in that way. That post was six years ago. I get emails every week from people all over the world saying, help me help, help. Um, you know, I can't get out. And that's the, one of the things that's very interesting to me is that I think all of us are probably touched by someone in our family or close to our families that has substance abuse problem, right? Either alcohol, drugs, whatever, and you and people are pretty thirsty. Uh, it's pretty easy for people to say, yeah, that's an addiction. You know, it's too bad.

Daniel Milnor: 01:02:36 Get help, whatever. Then you move down the scale and you come to things like sex and gambling and you go, well, I've got a, I've got, I'm a sex addict, or you know, I'm a gambling addict and you get up. There's a lot less people that want to say, Yep, those are legitimate addictions. You know, there's a lot of people that go, oh, those are just choices. You should just stop. Then you slide down the scale even further and you get to technology and there are so few people who want to admit that something like Instagram is a physical addiction, but it is, it is a dopamine physical addition. And I have seen it ruined. So many of my friends who are photographers whose just their entire existence is based on that app and it's not, I don't want any part of it. I have.

Daniel Milnor: 01:03:22 So I deleted all my accounts and then about four years later, the marketing director of blurb at the time said to me, it would really help us if you had an Instagram account. And I said, never gonna happen. I'm never going to do that. And so about 15 minutes later, or I'm sitting right next to her, she says, I just created an account in your name game. Don't worry. Don't worry about it. We will manage it. And I said, okay. And so two days goes by and I'm like, I better look at what they're putting on there cause it has my name on it and none, it's not their fault, but they don't know me. You know, they're not intimate with me as a photographer. They don't know my philosophy. And so the work they are putting on, the captions, the style, the look at it said, no, I can't do this.

Daniel Milnor: 01:04:02 So I started managing the account and then that lasted until I guess about six or eight months ago and I thought, why am I doing this? This, I don't like anything about this. I don't think it's helping blurb really in particular. So I quit posting and I haven't heard anything. So go back and look, why are you not posting? But you know, I think, I think anyone who gives themselves two weeks away from social, I think you'll be amazed because if you can survive two weeks cold Turkey, no access, no like sneaking peaks, no nothing. If you do two weeks, you will look back and you will see it in a very different light and I can almost guarantee that it's going to make you at least take pause to one, how much time you're putting in and two, how fake it is, how phony the entire thing is. You know there's, there's a big difference between being a good photographer and being someone who knows how to build following. Those are both, those are both legitimate skills. Absolutely. Building a following is a legitimate skill because it can give you the freedom and independence to operate on your own. But don't confuse the fact of someone with a big following is a good photographer because very often those two things do not overlap.

Raymond: 01:05:19 So, so then, so then let me ask you a question. Let me ask you a question because Canon, uh, not too long ago, uh, had hired a photographer to do an ad campaign and then they ended up letting that photographer go because even though they said that this photographer was, uh, was, was well suited for this ad campaign, she didn't have enough Instagram followers, so she let her go. So this is, this is just horrible to hear, you know, it, it's devastating to a lot of new photographers. Uh, how has, uh, not having a social presence affected you and um, I suppose for lack of a better term, your, your ability to, to get work?

Daniel Milnor: 01:06:01 Well, a couple of things. Number one for Canon to do that, it's just dumb. That's just a dumb and it's short, shortsighted, and then it looks really, the optics on that looks really bad as well. Um, but that's all the companies are doing that and the companies are lost, right, because all of this stuff came on so fast. They were caught so flat-footed and they're playing catch up. And a camp, a company like Canon Kennedy's a very conservative, slow moving company. That's a little bit like a big cruise ship. You know, you turn the, the, the, the uh, the, the steering wheel basically, what am I blanking on the a, you know the, the wheel ship. The wheel. Yeah. There we go. You turn the wheel with the ship. It doesn't just turn left. It keeps going straight for like eight miles and then it slowly makes a turn.

Daniel Milnor: 01:06:42 That's what these companies alike and they're lost because they're the mark. The industry's going away. Professional photography industry is disappearing and people are not buying equipment like they once were. And these people are, the companies are a little bit desperate. They're a little bit, you know, crazy trying to figure out what the next trend is. And so that's a hard thing for somebody like a company like Canon to have to over come and somebody is in the same boat like a Fuji where whoever it is, they're all in the same boat. I mean all these people, they're all pandering to Instagram followers and the crazy part is for a company like Canon, I shoot Fuji Company like Fuji. They're going after these Instagram stars. 99.9% of all those images are made with phone. They're not made with food cameras or Canon cameras. That makes no sense whatsoever and instead of slowing down and actually hiring somebody who could make original work that's going to last longer than five minutes online, that would be interesting because there's plenty of people using canon equipment in the world who are doing amazing stuff.

Daniel Milnor: 01:07:39 I was able to do a project a couple of years ago with a guy named Ron [inaudible] who who's a war photographer, documentary guy out of New York City, one of the founders of the seven agency. Ron's canon shooter. Right. Just off the top of my head. Yeah. Let's say that I had x amount of money for budget and I have no idea what his social following is. No idea. I don't care. But that's a guy who's capable. If I had budget to say, Okay Ron, is there something happening in the world that you've always wanted to do that you haven't been able to do and what can we do with it that's completely different, that's going to make people look and think in a different way. That interesting marketing campaigns and me not pandering to his social following thinking that their following is going to be your following. So for me, I'm in a unique spot.

Daniel Milnor: 01:08:20 So in 2010 I decided I did not want to work as a photographer anymore because I had done it for 25 years ago, almost 30 years, and I just wanted to do something else with my life. So it was a Tuesday afternoon. I just deleted my email account and I'm like, I'm done. I'm out. And my wife said, well, what are you going to do? And I said, I'm going to move to New Mexico and I'm going to change my career. And so I was kind of lurking around California still. And my phone rang and it was the founder of blurb, a woman named Eileen Gittens. And um, Eileen said I'd been on blurbs, advisory board going back to like 2007. And she called and said, hey, I heard you're not what's up with the photography thing? And I said, yeah, I'm going to move on, do something else.

Daniel Milnor: 01:09:00 And she said, why don't you work with them? And so what started as kind of an informal part time thing within six months was a full time job. And it's been by far the best job I've ever had in my life. It's been great helping people make books. There's been a lot of travel. I've been able to see the industry from a direction that I would've never been able to see it as a photographer. And I work with photographers, designers, artists, illustrators, educators, all over the world, Australia, Europe, Canada, the u s et Cetera. So it's given me this great perspective. And the other thing it's done is it's allowed me too, when I pick up a camera, only work on the projects that I want to work on. So I don't need to do assignments anymore. I don't have to do shoots, I don't want to do.

Daniel Milnor: 01:09:45 But here's the funny part is the second, this sounds so counterintuitive, but it's important. The second I said, I'm not a photographer anymore. I started doing projects. People would come to me and they'd go, Hey, uh, you want to work with us and do this? And I'm like, how did you even find me? The fact that I had disassociated myself with being labeling myself a photographer almost opened the door because what I realized was more important than the photography was the fact that I was somebody who has ideas, right? I, I read every day. I'm, I try to spend as much time as possible thinking about things. Um, I'm constantly trying to educate myself about things, stuff that I don't know about. I'm reading a book right now about the San Andreas fault and just ironically after the quakes of last week and people were like, why are we reading that book?

Daniel Milnor: 01:10:34 And I'm like, cause I don't know anything about the fall. Nothing. Oh by the way, you know the guy Richter, they're from the Richter scale. You know, he um, apparently never experienced a heavy duty earthquake in his entire life. And after he passed away, he owned a house in Northridge, California. That was then in possession, I believe, of his son, which was filled with all this stuff. And in 94, it burned down in the North Ridge earthquake. So it talks about, I talk about irony, but here's the weird thing is when your knowledge base expands beyond photography, you're suddenly interesting to people far beyond photography. So I was able to do something last year as well, a contract for a creative contract for a, with a, an organization that's in an industry that I know nothing about. And they came to me and said, look, you have interesting ideas.

Daniel Milnor: 01:11:20 You know, we want to hire you for a year and we'll give you a contract. We'll do this and that. And so I did that and I wasn't looking for that. It's not something I particularly wanted to do, but I thought, okay, this is a challenge. And they did not want a photographer, even though I did photographs for them. They want it stuck. Someone who had creative ideas, you know, how do you get this group to talk to this group? And if you're going to get this group to talk to this group, what are you going to make in the middle? Is it a film? Is it a still is it's copies of the magazine, is it a book? Like how's it gonna work? And so I have ideas like that.

Raymond: 01:11:52 W there was so much there to unpack. A what? A what a what a journey. Um, okay. I gotta I gotta no, no, no, no. It's not a mess. It's not a message. Just this whole time that you're talking, I'm thinking, oh, that's a great point. I want to go off of there. That's a great point. I want to go up there. That's a great point. I want to go up there, but at the same time I still have, I still have a few questions that I really wanted to touch on today. One of them was blurb. Um, I know that you're a huge proponent of uh, creating books, especially, you know, not being on Facebook, not sharing your images on Instagram, but having that physical copy there yourself. Um, when you talk to me about, about creating that book, talk to me about that first time I, well I guess I have to rephrase the question because you, you, you, uh, were in the position to have your images printed in a newspaper. So now that maybe people don't have as many images printed in the newspaper, what do you tell people about getting their images printed in a book?

Daniel Milnor: 01:12:59 So a couple of things. 1993 or 94, I made my first trip to New York as a photographer, which at the time is what you did. A lot of people still do that, that New York is where the people with who make decisions are based. It's where the people who have budgets that are based, et Cetera, and so I went and I showed my work to throw agents at the time primarily, and I realized that not a lot of these people, believe it or not, had a loop or light table to look at the time. Your, your portfolio is a single page of 20 slides. Like you throw it down, threw it down on a light table and they looped it and they went through and I was like, God, there has to be a better way to do this. So I went, I left New York, I went back to Phoenix, I went to the newspaper when an incident, the design department, and I said, I think I want to make my own book because that would be way easier to read than this page of slides.

Daniel Milnor: 01:13:50 And they were like, eh, go away. You're an idiot. Takes too long, you don't know what you're doing, blah, blah, blah. So three months later I had my first book, which was not really a book. It was like glorified oversized color copy that was laminated and bound and I made 10 all I could, I could only afford 10 copies. You could do this at Kinko's. Now I'm like five minutes, but was like, oh my God, this is a book. This is great. And so what I did is I took a list of the 10 clients that I really wanted to work for, National Geographic, German, Geo Stern, all these magazines around the world. And I was like, I'm going to send a copy to them. And of course this was snail mail and no announcement, just blindly mailing these things off. And a funny thing happened was they started contacting me, German Geo.

Daniel Milnor: 01:14:35 My phone rang and it was this very heavily accented German accent, female voice. And she's like, you know, we got your portfolio. This is on the believable. How did you do this? What is this? You know? And they were so intrigued by what I had, was able to do. And then the photo editor at the National Geographic at the time I got in Kent Koberstein, he wrote me a hand, like full page handwritten letter saying we've never seen a portfolio like this before. Like how did you do this? And so that's what got my bookmaking on the road was all the way back in 93 so when blurb came along it was sort of a natural progression of that. But the book is very important. And the funny thing is you have, you know, the digital online technology proponents and I think all those things are great. Digital, online and technology are all fine, but there is this a different level of consideration when it comes to print, especially at high levels of the industry because print signifies a couple of things.

Daniel Milnor: 01:15:29 And number one is it signifies concerted thought specific thought about your work because there's a big difference between putting your portfolio on an iPad and putting it into a book form because the book makes you, forces you to apply critical thinking to your work. What's the best image? What's the cover? What's the sequence? What's my ed? Is this good enough to last in this book or is it not good enough? The same thing, what happened back in the day when you go in the dark room, I'd go shoot, I'd worked for a day, I'd come back processed the film and your head, you're like sort of compiling what you have or you don't have and I would mix chemistry. I would get in the dark room. I would take my negative, get it in the enlarger, put it in the enlarger, turn the enlarger on and stand there and stare at this thing and say to myself, is it good enough?

Daniel Milnor: 01:16:18 Is it good enough for me to spend the next three hours making one print of this image if it's not good enough. There were times where I sat there and I go, it's not good enough, and I took it out of the larger, I poured the chemistry back into the bottles and I left because I didn't have something. So the book is a great way to get your head around what you actually have. And the book is confrontational because you have to put your phone down to look at it. So when you go into a meeting with someone and you hand them a book, they're not looking at the book and looking at their phone at the same time. They have to take it. They use both hands, they flip through it, it's tangible, and they're so inexpensive and writing, even if you, even if you did a copy of a book and no one in the world saw it except you, it's totally work that I do it all the time. By the end of day tomorrow I will make the first, I'll print the first test copy of the magazine I created from Albania.

Raymond: 01:17:12 Oh wait, wait. So, so I uh, actually had this on the podcast before. Every year I make a family yearbook, um, uh, of me and my wife and we have two kids. And, uh, before we had children, I quickly realized I am making all these photos and okay, let me step back. When I was growing up, I would go visit my grandma and we would look through those shoe boxes of images and they were great. And then when they were done, they were done. We would put them back and then the next year I'd go back for summer and we'd look through them again. And uh, you know, after getting the, what the iPhone four or whatever, and then, uh, getting into a digital SLR, photography, I'm taking all these photos, but that's only half of the equation. You're never looking at them again. You'll make them, you'll create this image or edit it, whatever.

Raymond: 01:18:03 And then you never look at it again. And I thought to myself, and luckily this was right before we had our first child, uh, Charlie, that I didn't want that to happen. I didn't want that to happen. And Luckily, uh, that is luckily light room has a partnership with blurb to be able to create books. Uh, and that's what I did. And every year since then, I have done so. And I can tell you that one of my favorite memories every single year as time has gone on is the second week of January when we get that book in the mail and then the family sits down, we all sit down together and we look through the book of our previous year. And then that of course sparks, well let's look at all the other books as well. And that to me brings back the joy of photography more so than even taking the photo. Um, because oftentimes you can, you kind of forget, you know, you kinda forget what had happened, especially if it's just a snapshot with a cell phone in the moment. But getting it in print is really, really something special. So I love this message that you are, I love, I love what you're sharing. I love blurbs message to trying to make photography tangible, you know, and just get it in your hands because that is the missing piece of, of photography. Um,

Daniel Milnor: 01:19:17 yeah. Watch what you're doing. Doing an annual book on the family is way more difficult than what I'm doing. And, but what you're doing, the annual with the family is what a lot of people that using blurb are trying to do. And there's a million ways to get derailed. You know, you shoot a lot of photos, you don't know how to, where to store them, you don't know how to tap a log down, can't find them. And so there's a lot of things that keep people from doing this. Um, I think one of the things to toss out the window is the idea of a perfect book. You know, people, I've see them just grind, grind themselves to a halt because, oh, it's gotta be perfect. Gotta be perfect. I don't know what a perfect book is. I've probably never seen on. And if I didn't see on, it's probably going to be really boring.

Daniel Milnor: 01:19:54 So, you know, I'm in Albania and I'm shooting and every night I'm designing, I'm taking the work that I made that day and I'm designing a magazine. So when I left Albania, I had 90 pages of magazine already fairly well thought out. I am changing it around quite a bit now, but by, I sort of gave myself a deadline of this Friday saying I want to have the first test copy and then when I say test copy, it's a test copy. It's not perfect. It's not even remotely close. There's going to be a million things wrong about it. But to see it in print, uh, is a whole different ballgame. It's, to me, print is a, is the great equalizer because again, the online photo community and in many ways there's a lot of people, very successful people in online photo community that have never printed a single photograph.

Daniel Milnor: 01:20:36 And I'm not talking about dark room printing, I'm talking about any kind of printing. And so bookmaking for them is like climbing Mount Everest. They go, Whoa, I don't know how to do that. And I saw it, I saw it in my photo students going back 10 years ago where people would like, I used to teach in Latin America. Every year I would go to Peru and teach a workshop and people would shoot 10,000 images. And I'm like, I had, I had someone shoot 22 gigs one morning shooting one morning, and then I try to edit on an iPad. And I said, why would you shoot 22? Like what could you possibly do that? And for her, for her it was about quantity. You know, she'd been listening to online community. People talk about, you know, well the first 500 Jews of the day doesn't count, you know, because they're never going to count.

Daniel Milnor: 01:21:21 I'm like, who told you this? This is absolute insanity. So I was there, I was in Albania for two weeks. I shot about a thousand pictures total, um, film. Oh, this was all digital, digital. Um, Yup. And uh, I edited the 193 that was the first sort of one-star big chunk. And then that went down to about 50 pictures. And then within the 50, there's about 20. That would be pictures that will sort of be the nucleus of what the project is. But that's in that, you know, I'm not, I don't think any of those were, were, are gonna knock anything in my sort of top 20 lifetime work out of the way. The trip really wasn't about that, but it was fun.

Raymond: 01:22:04 Yeah, it's a jigsaw puzzle I would imagine. I would imagine. Um, I feel like I could sit here and talk to you for another two hours or so, but, um, I, I really do want to be, um, conscious of your time. You've shared so much with me, Daniel. My next question is how can people find you online? Obviously you're not going to say Facebook or Instagram, so where, where would you like people to find out more about you?

Daniel Milnor: 01:22:33 The easiest way to find me online is a website called shifter, s, h. I, f, t, e, r, and it's dot media, not.com shifted or.media that has like the audio interviews that I do. It has, there's one tab of photography which rarely ever changes cause I'm lazy. It has a creative tab that talks about books, other people's photography, other people's books. I have an adventure tab that talks about cycling, hiking, fishing, climbing, et Cetera, which I do a lot of. And there's a tab about yoga, which I'm a big fan of and, and also to have about Lyme disease, which I got six years ago. And there's a global community of people that are all suffering from the same thing. There's a lot of stuff on there, probably more than anyone wants to see, but there is some good photography stuff from time to time.

Raymond: 01:23:19 I love it. I'm going to go check that out right away as well. A, I will put the links or the link to that in the, in the show notes. So if anybody's interested in just whatever podcast app you're listening on, just swipe up and you'll be able to see some of Dane's, uh, images as well as links there. But, uh, Dan, again, thank you so much for, for coming on and sharing just a piece of the knowledge that you have accumulated over the past 30 years of, uh, of, of, of being a photographer. I, I've really enjoyed my time with you today. So again, thank you so much for coming on.

Daniel Milnor: 01:23:49 Absolutely. Thanks for happen. And I hope that somebody, uh, actually gets something from my weird views

Raymond: 01:23:57 if, if anybody did, it was me as well. But I know, I know that. Plenty of that as well. Uh, uh, too. So again, uh, thank you so much.

Daniel Milnor: 01:24:05 Yup. Absolutely. Thank you.

Raymond: 01:24:07 Wow. I got to tell you, that was honestly one of my favorite episodes that, uh, were interviews rather than I have ever had the pleasure of hosting. Dan was a fantastic guest with so much to share. Um, my biggest takeaway from this interview was absolutely just how much more connected, uh, Dan came after he, uh, got off social media. Now there is, here's the thing, there's a lot of, um, talk or suggestions or blog posts out there that, you know, say, you know, we should get off social media. We should get off social media, we should get off social media or that it's, you know, ruining society. And I get that. Right. But then there's also a lot of people who make all of their money from social media, right. I the majority of my money through social media, through finding, um, clients, bride specifically as for me, Facebook just makes it, uh, the easiest platform and the cheapest, uh, to be able to do so.

Raymond: 01:25:09 So, um, while I, uh, you know, would love to cut out social media from my life completely, and I loved hearing Dan's take, I don't want everybody to think that the, you have to go out and, and get rid of it, you know. Um, but being more intentional about how you use social media, about how much time you're on social media, I don't think, I don't think that it would hurt. You know what I mean? I don't, I don't think that spending less time on Facebook or Instagram is really going to hurt your business because, uh, even if you do use social media for business like myself, you know, that's not all that you use it for. You go on there, you read dumb articles, you watch dumb videos and you waste a lot of time and, you know, ultimately do think about it a lot.

Raymond: 01:26:03 So, um, I really appreciate, uh, Dan coming on and sharing his, uh, view and I envied the ability to be able to just go completely off the grid and not worry about status updates of people who I knew, you know, in high school, you know, 13 years ago. So, um, I thought that it was just fantastic. I thought that it was an absolutely fantastic interview and I hope that you got a lot out of it as well. So, uh, I know that this was a long one today, so I'm gonna cut this outro short. Um, I would love to know what your biggest takeaway was from this episode. Please feel free to share it in the beginner photography podcast, Facebook group, and that's it. I will see it there and uh, we can continue the discussion. So that is it for this week. Until next time where I have some really exciting things, I will be sharing a, I want you to get out. I want you to keep shooting, I want you to stay safe and most importantly for this year, I really want you to focus on yourself. So that is it. I'll see you next time. We'll love you all.

outro: 01:27:11 If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.

Automated Transcription by Temi.com

BPP 160: Aaron Nace - Mobile Editing 101

Aaron Nace is the host of Phlearn the educational website and amazing youtube channel focused on photography and post production with Lightroom and Photoshop Tutorials. In this interview we talk all about editing with all the options available for mobile!

Become A Premium Member is access to more in-depth questions that help move you forward!

In This Episode You'll Learn:

• How Aaron got started in Photography and Photoshop Tutorials

• What a post production artist does and why Aaron considers himself equally a photographer

• The difference between lightroom and photoshop

• Why you should be editing on mobile

• What apps to use to edit photos on your phone

• The downsides of editing on mobile in 2019

• What you should do to your boring photos before uploading them to facebook

• and How to know when youre done editing

Premium Members Also Learn:

• How new working photographers can improve their workflow

• How to use mobile editing to your advantage with clients

• The best way to manage client expectations

• How to find the balance between perfection and progress to not waste time

Resources:

• Learn Lightroom and Photoshop Tutorials with PHLEARN

• https://phlearn.com/photoshop-tutorials/

• https://www.facebook.com/Phlearn/

• https://www.instagram.com/phlearn/

• https://www.youtube.com/phlearn

• https://twitter.com/phlearn

• https://www.aaron-nace.com/

Click Here to Take 20% off a yearly subscription to Phlearn by using the promo code “Beginner20”

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Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

Full Interview Transcription:

Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.

Raymond Hatfield: 00:00 Welcome to the beginner of photography podcast, where today we're learning the ins and outs of editing on the go. Let's get into it.

Intro: 00:09 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfield, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raymon interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now with you as always, husband, father, Ho brewer, La Dodger Fan, an Indianapolis wedding photographer, Raymond Hatfield.

Raymond: 00:37 Welcome back to this episode of the beginner photography podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. I am Raymond Hatfield and today we have a much requested interview about editing that I cannot wait to dive into, but first I want to give a shout out to Leah for leaving the podcast, a five star iTunes review. She said I get valuable information out of each and every episode. I enjoy the interviews and this is the only podcast I am a patron of and it is well worth it. Leah, you are way too kind. Thank you so much for your review. As Leah mentioned, she is a patron of the podcast, which means that each week she gets an extra extended interview where that week's guest shares information specifically related to the business and making money with your camera. If you want to start making money with your camera, do like Leah and considering becoming a patron by heading over to beginner photography, podcast.com and clicking the premium membership button at the top.

Raymond: 01:40 In today's interview, premium members will hear how to improve your workflow to save time and get your clients their photos faster. How mobile editing can give you an advantage over your competition, how to manage client expectations. And honestly a what Aaron shares here is massive and caused me to reexamine how I conduct my business. And lastly, how to handle progress over progression to get things done fast. So if you want to know the answers to these questions, become a patron by heading over to begin photography podcast.com and clicking the premium membership button now. So let's get into this week's interview with Aaron Nace, and if the name isn't familiar, he is the founder of PHLEARN the Photoshop and Lightroom education website and super popular youtube channel that has helped me on more than one occasion and be sure to stick around to the end where after the interview where Aaron gives me something special to share just with you, the listeners of the beginner photography podcast. So without any further ado, let's get into this week's interview with Aaron Nace. Today's guest is Aaron Nace, the host of PHLEARN the educational website and amazing youtube channel focused on photography and post

production. Today we're going to be talking all editing and all of the options that we have available now for mobile. So Aaron, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Aaron Nace: 03:05 Yeah. So great to be here. Excited to talk about all the fun things we can do with editing our images.

Raymond: 03:10 It's, that's one of those things that, uh, it's crazy. The, the, the amount of, um, just the, the scope of the world that editing is, uh, how many different nuances there is that comes within editing is, uh, sometimes it causes me to have a headache. So I'm excited to be talking to an expert and, uh, and really getting into, uh, editing and what it can do for our photos. But before we do that, can you share a, how you got into photography slash when you started focusing on post production?

Aaron Nace: 03:43 Yeah, for sure. So my background in Photoshop actually came first. Uh, I am traditionally trained as a designer. I went to school for product design and got out of school and was doing a lot of like three dimensional product designing things like cars and you know, tools and, and things like that. And so we had a lot of work to do with actually like visual rendering and creating competition. And this was more like using Photoshop as a piece of paper, you know, using layers for like basically if you want to like design a car, you have to draw it first, right? And then you have to like see how it looks in different dimensions and things like that. So I would do all that in Photoshop using a tablet or like a, a pressure sensitive screen. So that's where my background in Photoshop, uh, started and photography actually came to me a little bit later down the line.

Aaron Nace: 04:36 And I was taking the trip after graduating from university and just fell in love with photography through the fact that I had a camera with me. I was going to a lot of really interesting places and I was like, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity. I got to capture everything that I can and kind of fell in love with photography during that process. So when I got back I realized, Hey, I can take my love of Photoshop that I'd been working on for years. And combining that with my new love, with typography and really creating things that are just like kind of out of this world. So my background in the photography side of things is mostly conceptual and fine art photography. So doing things like making people levitate in the air or you know, making a person as big as a house and, and doing this and trying to make it look 100% real, not look like it was Photoshop, just make it look like a photograph. And that's kind of what drove my passion to, to create through both photography and Photoshop.

Raymond: 05:35 So when, when you first kind of made that connection in your head like, Hey, I've got these photos, I can turn these into something, you know. Fantastic. Um, what was the goal for kind of where you are today? How did, how did that progress into end of this kind of education powerhouse? Uh, that it is?

Aaron Nace: 05:52 No, it was all just for fun. In the beginning I was just doing like I had, I had these ideas in my head and I just wanted to see if I could pull it off, you know, can I, can I do this? Uh, I, it was just a hobby. I had a full time job at the time and it was just a way for me to get my creativity out there and kind of give myself a little bit of a challenge and I suppose do my work online. And the comments just started pouring in like, this is cool. How did you do this? How did you do this? And I realized there was a big gap in the marketplace. There were a lot of people teaching how to do these techniques. And so I started teaching people individually just one-on-one through like Skype sessions and hold ma'am.

Aaron Nace: 06:34 Yeah, yeah. It was just like, uh, you know, very natural progression and I had such a good time and you know, the, the response was really great. So it was pretty much immediately obvious that there was a need there. And I started releasing videos for free on youtube. This was back in, Oh boy, this almost 10 years ago now. And you

know, almost from the beginning we had a really, really great response. So that was to me, just again, not necessarily like a business, it was more just something I was doing fun or we didn't give back to the community and it kind of turned into a natural business when I realized, you know, not only people were interested in short snippets on Youtube, but they wanted longer, more in depth, like more difficult topics. They really wanted to master this stuff. And that's when I founded flirt.com and, uh, we fast forward today, we actually have a subscription service where you can pay, it's kind of like Netflix, you just pay a monthly fee and then you get access to everything. So, uh, that's basically the whole thing in a nutshell.

Raymond: 07:40 Yeah, that's insane. What a, what a great journey. That's crazy that it took 10 years. You know, when you think of kind of like online and uh, uh, you just have this idea that things happen fast, fast, fast, but it's a, it's great to hear that you, you know, you stuck with this for, uh, for so long and here you are today. So, uh, I kind of want to know a little bit more about you and kind of what, aside from obviously founding flirt, would you call yourself like a post production artist? Is there a different title that you would have for your, for the, for the job that you're teaching, I suppose?

Aaron Nace: 08:13 Yeah, for sure. So I would say as far as my art is concerned, I would consider herself myself more of a photographer than a post production artists. Uh, I use post production as a tool. So the way I kind of see Photoshop and, and any type of editing tool, it's just, it's, it's another skill set. It's another tool that you can use to create the artists that you want to create. So, you know, we're getting out there. A camera is just a tool to interpret how you see the world. You know, if you decide maybe you're going to photograph people in a studio setting, you can bring in lighting and you can do backgrounds and you can use props and those are all just tools as well. And then when you get to the computer, you have different programs that serves as different tools as well.

Aaron Nace: 08:56 So it kind of all starts with an initial vision of what do I want this end product to look like? And then gathering the tools that are necessary to create that end product. So for my personal work, I do all of my own photography. It's all purpose driven. And then Photoshop is a tool that I use to bring those concepts that I photograph together. So, uh, both as a photographer and as like, I guess a digital artist. Um, but my primary passion in teaching that's, you know, that's what I'm all about. Like how can I, how can I get this information to as many people as possible?

Raymond: 09:31 Yeah, no, for sure. For sure. Um, so when it comes to, uh, the editing side of things, you mentioned Photoshop there. Uh, there's a lot of photographers, especially in the beginning photography podcast, Facebook group who um, maybe aren't at that level yet where they understand the difference truly between light room and Photoshop. So before we actually go any further, can you just settle once and for all, what is the difference between Photoshop and Lightroom and which is the right choice for who?

Aaron Nace: 10:00 Yeah, so Lightroom is kind of like step one in Photoshop is step two. So if you, if you're at zero right now, if you're not doing anything, start with lightroom and start with step one. The things that you can do in lightroom are make your image brighter or darker. Let's say you know, you've overexposed your image or you've underexposed your image or maybe not even your whole image. Maybe your subject looks good but the sky is too bright. That's the sort of thing that you can fix in light room. Maybe you have a lot of distortion from your lens or the colors aren't exactly like what you wanted. Maybe your white balance is off. In other words, your photo came out a little too blue or a little too yellow. That's the sort of thing that you can fix in light and it's an incredibly powerful program.

Aaron Nace: 10:42 It can do quite a bit of work, just improving a photo as a whole. Now step two is Photoshop and this is where we get into a little bit more advanced techniques.

Things like retouching, taking a a portrait and you know, removing blemishes, doing advanced techniques to make the skin look a little bit smoother and a little bit cleaner. Also, things like compositing, you know, if I want to take an image of a person in this location and put them in a different location, I can use Photoshop to do that sort of thing. So I would say, you know, I use the same step one, step two with my own work as well. When I take photographs, I first bring them into light room and get them to look as good as I possibly can. Enlightening. And then from Lightroom, I go into Photoshop and take the next steps. So it's a step one step two process.

Raymond: 11:38 Gotcha. So it's not like if you're a beginner to start with light room. If you're a professional, you only use Photoshop. It's you use both in tandem, but that's the order in which you, you go through editing your photos.

Aaron Nace: 11:49 Yeah. Yeah. Most definitely. And you want to start with light, no matter where you are in the process. If you've never used any photo editing software, you want to start with light room or if you're a professional, you still want to start with lightroom. So it's, it's the great first step after getting your images on your computer.

Raymond: 12:06 Yeah. I've, I, I've been asked before. Yeah. As you can imagine, there's a lot of confusion between the two, for new photographers, kind of what, what do I use? And obviously the answer is both. Um, but I think as a wedding photographer, I would, I'd, I'd say that I use Lightroom probably 98% of my work and then the remaining 2%, uh, like you said, the retouching is done there. They're in Photoshop. So I can totally see how there's, there's the use there for, for, for both of them. But when it comes to Photoshop, I want to talk, I really want to kind of get into this, right? Because the Photoshop is more of the manipulation, you know, within a photos on your phone, you know, on, on your iPhone, you can change the exposure, you can change the contrast and these things are simple and they're built in, but you can't, um, add a son or you can't add anything or truly manipulate an image without, uh, kind of taking the next step, I guess. Uh, we'll just continue with that analogy by going into extra, uh, apps or whatever. So, um, before we really talk about the manipulation side of it, can you kind of share with me what are some, um, tools, uh, for mobile that are, uh, specifically, I totally phrase this question wrong. This is a bad question. What, what would you suggest are some tools that beginners can use, uh, on their phone to, to get started with, with manipulating their photos past, uh, just simple exposure adjustments,

Aaron Nace: 13:34 right. So I'm actually light room for mobile is a really fantastic program. Uh, so recently Adobe came out with a new software suite. It's, you know, it's a replacement for lightroom classic, which technically they haven't phased out lightroom classic, we that's still available. But there's a new program called light room. It's for your computer, but you can also use it on your phone and on a tablet. And the editing capabilities in that program are really fantastic. So you can really go beyond just making your photo lighter or darker. For instance, there is selective editing in that program where you can, you know, grab a gradient and drag, you know, just affect your sky. So you could have your sky be a little bit more blue, a little bit more vibrant. You can select individual colors and make those, you know, maybe you want the Greens to be a little bit more saturated or you've took a photo and you know, like the background might be a little bit distracting.

Aaron Nace: 14:34 You can kind of lower the contrast and the background to make your subject stand out. So you can do all those things in Lightroom for mobile. And the best part about that is that program's free. So it's very easily accessible. You don't have to load in, you know, professional, raw images. You can load them images that you've taken right from your camera and edit those right on, on your mobile device. But if you do load images in from your camera, you can work on your raw images on your mobile device as well, which I think is just insanely powerful. And the editing capabilities within that program are really very, very

good. So I think anyone who has used Lightroom classic in the past is going to have no problem with the transition to light room mobile. So that's really like my, my main, um, you know, my main program when I'm editing on my phone.

Aaron Nace: 15:27 Uh, now Photoshop, uh, is in the process. They're releasing Photoshop for the iPad, uh, relatively soon. I know they announced it with the iPad. Uh, there's a Beta version out, uh, which I've had the opportunity to test and it's going to be a fantastic program for taking that next step on mobile devices. Uh, and then, you know, we'll see the iPad version come out in a couple of months and then further down the road, uh, there's a good chance we're going to see a mobile version for that. I've had as well. It basically, it's, it's, uh, you know, we're kind of waiting on hardware to catch up with the software, but, um, I've had the opportunity to use some of the newer tablets, like the iPad pro and I got to say the hardware on that thing is just, it's mind boggling. It's, you know, a tablet that's as powerful as a, as a modern computer. So I, as we see mobile devices take more of the marketplace and become better computers, uh, we're going to see software that improves to be able to match the computing capabilities of those devices as well.

Raymond: 16:34 Yeah, yeah. It's, uh, I remember, I remember the, the, the day that the iPad was announced, like the original iPad, I looked at my, uh, my girlfriend at the time who's now my wife, and I said, I was like, one day I'm not even going to need a computer. Like, I cannot wait to just like be able to edit an entire wedding on the iPad. Like on the way home from the, uh, in my testimony, my self driving Tesla, you have to drive. I can just set it by the time I get home, uh, the wedding's done and I can deliver it. It's going to be fantastic. I think that now, even though it's, uh, it's almost 10 years later, um, we're, we're starting to get to that point and it's, it's really exciting. But with that said, even though that we're almost 10 years in, mobile editing is still very new. It's kind of a bit of a wild west. You know, we're desktop editing is, it's pretty polished. We've been doing this for a long time. So why would anybody even want to edit on mobile today?

Aaron Nace: 17:27 Well, I got to say, you know, that that dream scenario you had where you can edit your entire wedding on your iPad. I believe 100% that, that's here now, we're already in that stage. And I, again, if you have the right technology in your hands. So, uh, I picked up, you know, the new iPad pro 0.9 inch, uh, because I'm going to be doing some workshops using this as a mobile editing device and I was a little skeptical. Like is this all it's cracked up to be like is this software, there is a hardware there and I got to say it's there, like we are in that time. Uh, they're doing a really nice job with the software releases that are coming out soon. Soon you're going to be able to plug in your SD card directly into your iPad by a little, you know, Dongle accessory or whatever they call them.

Aaron Nace: 18:19 Uh, so that day is, is very much here, uh, anything on your mobile device honestly, because light room for instance is, is cloud based software. And what that means is any edit that you make on one device, you know, uploads to the Internet. So when you look at it on another device, the change is already there. It's syncs across all your devices automatically. And for that reason you and why I believe it's an actual viable tool now is a bit, you don't have to do any of your work twice. You do your work on some of it on your computer, pick up your iPad and the work you did on your computer is automatically applied on your iPad. You put down your iPad, pick up your phone and the work you did there is automatically applied on your phone. So you're never doing multiple edits of the same image.

Aaron Nace: 19:10 It's all of it is sinked at the same time. So it's really just whatever device you have. And for me, I carry an iPad with me just about wherever I go. So if I have an extra 20 or 30 minutes where I'm just kind of hanging out at a coffee shop, like why not do some editing? They're like, the tools are there and if you have the device with you, you know it's hard to predict when you're going to have extra time. And you know, I find myself having

extra time just in the randomness of cases. And sometimes I'm just like sitting in my car for 20 minutes, like waiting for a friend to go grab a coffee and come back to the car or whatever. And if like if I can grab my iPad there and edit your photos, like, you know, in a professional capacity and not have to Redo that and I, well that's 20 minutes that I would otherwise just be like sitting on my phone browsing Instagram or just like totally my thumbs and that's an extra 20 minutes that I've saved and working at home.

Aaron Nace: 20:09 So I think these mobile devices, it's not like, Hey, now I'm only going to edit on this mobile device. But the deal is most people have a mobile device with them at all times. Right? Like I've got my phone with me at all time, I have an iPad with me a lot of the time and if I can get this editing done when I'm, you know, in random situations and having just like a, I'm in bed right now, you know, I'm not quite tired. I want to stay up for another 20 minutes, I'll flip through my images and I'll make some edits there. Perfect. And then tomorrow when you open up your laptop, those edits are automatically there. That's, that's where I think mobile editing really has its place nowadays.

Raymond: 20:51 So, uh, I kind of guess where I get 'em caught up is sort of the, uh, and we don't have to go too in depth in this, but it's more of like the file management side of things because, uh, if I, you know, if I'm on my way home from a wedding and I'm loading 150 gigs worth of raw photos on my iPad to then, you know, then the next day when I wake up to start editing, it's, it has to upload all those photos from the iPad to the Adobe cloud and then back onto my computer. And then I gotta figure out what to do with those. Uh, so I could see how in a sense of like I have an idea for a, a conceptual photo or fine art photo and this is only going to take five raws rather than 5,000 where this makes sense today.

Raymond: 21:38 So if we're in that situation where we have this idea, because oftentimes photographers kind of get overwhelmed by editing tools like Photoshop because they just don't know what they want to do, right? Like me in particular, I go out and I shoot photos of my kids all the time. So I bring those photos into Photoshop and I have no idea what to do with these photos. And yet then I see a photo of a, you know, like a New York skyline and then somehow a waterfall is added to it to becoming through the buildings. You know. So to be able to create a photo like this deal, you need to know what you need when you go out shooting, uh, before you edit it. Or can you just bring in any old photo and create something out of your imagination?

Aaron Nace: 22:26 I think you have a much better chance of creating a good final product if you have a clear idea from the beginning. So for me, when I'm, when I have an idea about an image that I want to pull off, it's I spend a great deal of time in the early stages, pre production, thinking about this idea, what's the story that I want to tell? Like how am I going to tell this story? And if I'm going to need to capture multiple images and combine them together later on, how am I going to, how am I going to capture these images in a way that they're going to wind up looking realistic so that that planning and the preparation stage, it's, it's not always the most exciting, but it really does help you end up with a better final product. And you touched on something that's really important.

Aaron Nace: 23:15 Uh, you know, not knowing what you want to do in Photoshop. I think we've all gone through that, but kind of like the way I use it, an analogy like in the kitchen, right? Like, you know, if you go in the kitchen and you're like, I'm going to make food and then you just like, but what food am I going to make? You know, like you're never, you're not going to get anywhere. You know what I mean? But if you're like, you know what, tonight I'm going to make chicken Tikka Masala. And then you look up a recipe for chicken Tikka Masala and you go to the store and you get all your ingredients and you come back and you follow the recipe. At the end of the Diet, you're going to have chicken Tikka Masala. It might not be them best you've ever had in your life, but you're going to wind up with something.

Aaron Nace: 23:57 And that's a very different situation than just like staring into your refrigerator and you know, hoping something appears. So opening it every five minutes, like, is there something, is there something new in there now? Like what's the deal? What's come on? Uh, I've been in, you know, I'm a avid cook. I love cooking. And I've had those moments so many times where it's just like, there's nothing here in the, in the kitchen for me there. There's no meal. Um, but the deal was I didn't have a vision of something I wanted to make and I didn't get the ingredients of, you know, of this thing. So starting out with an end product in your mind will help you get there. If you don't have an end product in mind, well you're really not gonna get anywhere at all.

Raymond: 24:45 Yeah. That's, that's, that's a great point. That is a great point. And that's a really good analogy too. I didn't think about that. So, so then, uh, at some point we have to, in that scenario, we have to know what chicken, uh, uh, Tikka Masala is, right? We have to know what that is. Or it could be cereal and milk, right? Either way, you're gonna need your cereal and you're to need your milk, right? Right. But if, if you want to go out and you want to, um, try something new, something that you've never made before, you know, you don't know what the kitchen is, is possible of, you know what, this is getting wasted.

Aaron Nace: 25:23 No worries. But like the whole thing is, you know, when you're, when you're looking for something you want to create, just like we have with food, right? Like there are restaurants out there that serve delicious food where you could go try something and be like, you know what? I like this food. I didn't realize I like this food, but I kinda like that. I want to see if I can make it on my own. We've got the same thing with Instagram, you know, browsing images and saying like, you know what? I really like this photograph. I want to see if I can make something similar. You know, I don't want to copy it, but what do I like about this photograph? Maybe I really liked the lighting or maybe I like the way that, you know, this person was captured. I really feel like I can get to know them. Maybe I want to try to retreat that with my next photo. So having all these tools and inspiration allows us to kind of build a little bit of a reference point to where we can say, okay, cool. That's what I want to do now. Let's go ahead and try to get that done. Okay.

Raymond: 26:19 I Dunno if ended up past life you learned how to read minds, but he just did it to me perfectly and you got the answer that I was looking for. Terrible, terrible questions.

Aaron Nace: 26:29 So I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's, yeah, I think, I think we can pull him together.

Raymond: 26:37 Uh, and so I, I kind of want to know a little bit about, um, this is kind of the next step, right? You get started, uh, you start wandering into, um, editing at, you know, maybe you're charging for your work photographers who are just starting to charge for their work. What is something that they can do, uh, perhaps with mobile to improve their workflow?

Speaker 4: 27:00 Hey, Raymond here. And if you're listening to this, you are listening to the free version of today's interview. If you want to hear more from today's guest about the business of photography, consider becoming a premium member every week. Guests answer questions about products, pricing packages, and so much more that will help your growing photography business thrive. This is the next logical step to join head over to beginning photography, podcast.com and click the premium membership button at the top of the page.

Raymond: 27:30 I love it. Um, I just had so many ideas there running through my head about how even myself could kind of improve how I, how I communicate with that with clients. So I got some work after this.

Aaron Nace: 27:43 Well, it's like you go to a restaurant, right? And you order something, you know, like you have a certain expectation of what you're going to get when you order something. You know, if you weren't a hamburger and you get a chicken sandwich, you're going to be like, uh, I ordered a hamburger. Like, you know, and there'd be like, well, chick is kind of like hamburgers, you know, that's, you know, we have an expectation, but if you go in and you're like, I order a hamburger and the, you know, your server is like, oh, you know what, we're actually out of hamburgers but we do have chicken sandwich. If you want that, then you can decide, okay, chicken sandwich would be cool if that way when you get the chicken sandwich it's like, Yup, this is what we agreed upon. Yeah, exactly. So it's all about managing those expectations.

Raymond: 28:26 segue by the way.

Aaron Nace: 28:32

Raymond: 28:32
my iPad continues to, uh, get me excited. It was specifically for wedding photography. I know that it's like we talked about, it's easier for, um, conceptual photography or smaller, smaller batches of images. Um, but, uh, this idea continues to get me excited and for some reason I keep buying the newest iPad because I, I keep thinking that there's something in that iPad that is going to let me, you know, uh, get to that next step. But I keep finding downsides, whatever it is. So I want to know from your point of view, what are some of the downsides to editing on a mobile device here in 2019?

Aaron Nace: 29:13 Well, you know, what are the deals with a light room for mobile? For instance, if it is a cloud based, you know, software, so all of your images are being uploaded to the Internet. So if you're on a really slow connection that's just gonna take a little bit of time. And like you said, sometimes you're coming back from a shoot with 150 gigabytes. Well, you know, that's a lot of information to upload the Internet. And if you're not working on a fast connection, it's going to take a long time, then that might be a little bit frustrating for you. Not to mention that that cloud storage isn't free. You know, anytime you upload something on the Internet, someone's paying for it, right? It's mainly younger. Yeah. I mean it depends, right? When you upload your images to Instagram, you're not paying for it. But guess what?

Aaron Nace: 30:05 The company that owns Instagram, Facebook, they're paying for that storage, right? That image is on a server somewhere and they're paying for that. So there's a funny little quote like if you're not paying for a service, then like you are the service or you are the product. And like when it comes to Instagram, the reason you don't have to pay to upload your images to Instagram is because they're serving you ads. They're making money off of you being on there. But let's say you have another like cloud storage platform where you want to backup your images, chances are you're going to have to pay for that. So the same is true with Lightroom. For mobile lightroom desktop, you hit a certain amount of information that's included with your monthly plan. But if you want to start, start uploading 150 gigabytes, you know, per session, you're going to wind up paying a larger and larger monthly rate to store that much image, uh, to store that many images on the cloud.

Aaron Nace: 30:58 So I would say if you're in that position, it may not make sense to upload every single photo to the cloud directly. It might make a little bit more sense to get your images on your computer first. Go ahead and call out the images that you're like not going to

so speaking of managing expectations, this is a very terrible

Yeah.

Um, thinking about like the idea to be able to edit everything on

use. Cause out of 150 gigs, there's a good chance that some of those are just throwaways, right? Like all of them are perfect. Right? Yeah. And of course, like, you know, we, we want to take as many images as we can, but you know, just the image, it's like grossly underexposed or like, oops, I forgot I took a picture of the ground on accident. You know, get rid of those first before you put those on the cloud. Uh, so that's a potential thing that we want to look at too, especially if we're working with a lot of files.

Aaron Nace: 31:44 Um, you know, and then really just bandwidth. You know, when you're working on your images on your computer and they're on a local hard drive, fantastic. You know, that connection between your hard drive and you computers likely very fast. But if you are in a slower, uh, you know, a slower network situation, it might be a little bit of a slower bandwidth. You know, I got to say though to that, what could be seen as a con on the exact opposite side of that, all of your images are now backed up permanently on the cloud. So let's say your computer did have a failure or someone for, you know, stole your computer or your hard drive crashed your whatever. Well, all of your images by using one of these cloud based servers are already on the cloud. So it's not only is it a way to edit wherever you are, but it's also an instant backup solution. So it's, it has like, you know, very positive side of it as well. It kind of takes all of your image backup, uh, and it does pretty much automatically.

Raymond: 32:48 Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things that I run into when it comes to editing is I'm, uh, when I edit on a computer, the, the monitor is calibrated. I have the light in here dialed in right where I need it so that every time I edit, it's a very consistent experience so that I'm editing the exact same way every single time. With mobile. I could be on my couch or the lighting is entirely different. Maybe there's a window right in front of me, and that's kind of skewing how I see the image itself, which can affect how the image gets edited. Um, now I know that apple at least has put in things like, uh, is it true tone or whatever that, that calibrates the monitor itself. But aside from that, uh, is there any way that we can kind of get around that just so that we can ensure that we have a more consistent, uh, edit so that when we posted online, it, it looks as though it looks the same way it did on, uh, on our mobile device.

Aaron Nace: 33:48 I would say, you know, if you are concerned about color to that degree, I would do all of, you know, the majority of your editing on your mobile device, on your iPad, whatever, when you're out and about, I mean, do it on your computer. Well just do it on whatever device you have with you. But then when it comes time to send those images off, get in your environment that you know is dialed in and just do a quick look through and you'll be able to see, okay, are these up to my standards of where they should be? And if they aren't, you can do a little quick tweak before their, so it totally depends. You know, not everyone has an environment like you do where the lighting is perfectly dialed in and they've got a calibrated monitor and that's totally okay too. But you know, if you're a person who does care about having your colors exactly, you know, render perfectly and you have one of these environments, then I would just say make that the last step in your chain before you upload them to the Internet.

Raymond: 34:46 Okay. Good tip. Good tip. One thing I see a lot is, um, whenever I scroll through, Facebook is just really boring. Cell phone photos from my family and friends that just, just very boring. There's nothing to it, you know, straight out of camera. They took the shot, uploaded it directly to Facebook. What are some things that everybody listening could be or should be doing to their photos to prevent them from posting boring, boring shots?

Aaron Nace: 35:13 Well, I think, you know, part of that is, uh, depends on the, the desire of the person taking those pictures too, right? Like, oh, sure, yeah. I get

Raymond: 35:22 my, my aunt, uh, a free pass because you know, she doesn't understand but, but I'm assuming that for those listening, uh, they're obviously have some sort of interest in photography and they don't want their photos just to blend in with everybody else. What are some, what are some things that, what are just some, uh, simple beginner things that we should be doing to our photos, uh, to make them stand out just a little bit more?

Aaron Nace: 35:42 Right. Well, I think even a lot of that can be done with the photography side a bit as well. So, you know, capturing things from new angles that might be just a little bit more interesting. Um, maybe bring your phone a little bit lower to the ground or getting a little bit higher. You know, uh, these angle changes can make a huge, huge difference in the perception of a photo. You know what, when we look at photos of the paths that have caught our interest, you know, we're talking about photos that are 50 or 60 years old and the technology that those images were, you know, like 50 or 60 year old camera is dinosaur in terms of technology compared to what you have on your smartphone. So the technology there is already really good. So, you know, using the techniques that people have used for hundreds of years to create great images, those techniques will continue to make your images stand out.

Aaron Nace: 36:40 So, uh, you know, finding out what's interesting about an image and then framing your photograph to focused on that interesting part of it. You know, one thing that draws me into photographs a lot of the time is I want to feel like I'm getting to know the person in that photograph a little bit more. I want, I want a little bit of a sense of story, like what's going on here, what I want to be pulled into this image and I want to be asking more questions like I want, you know what I mean? It's like you take a bite of a hamburger and it's like, I want more of this, right? Like, Ooh, there's something interesting here. I want, I want even more of that. And that's what I want to see with photography. That to me is what makes it photograph interesting. So you know, photographs where everyone's looking at the camera and smiling.

Aaron Nace: 37:32 Totally good. Those have their purposes. Those have, you know, their uses. But those don't usually tell me a lot of a story. It doesn't pull me in and it doesn't have any asking what's next, what's more, what happened before this? What's gonna Happen after this? So definitely take those images where you're, you know, everyone's smiling and looking at the camera, but then also take those images where maybe you're getting up close and personal and, and taking pictures of people in the moment or maybe they're don't even know you're taking those pictures. So a little bit more of a candid style of photography and trying to get those reactions. You know, if a person is laughing or you know, like having like, uh, you know, an organic emotion that if you can capture that sort of thing, it's just going to be a little bit more interesting in general.

Aaron Nace: 38:20 And I think that we can go with our guts as far as like what's interesting to us to look at in person. Like, you know, if I'm looking at a bunch of people smiling, looking at me, that's not that interesting, right? That's not, it's just, you know, but if I'm looking at someone like working on an engaging task and maybe they're frustrated or maybe they're like crazy excited because they just like did something new for the first time, like that just officially is more interesting to look at just as a person. So just using your eyes first as your camera and like, is this interesting or not? And if it is, that's a good time to bring out of camera. And if it's not well maybe change something up. Maybe wait a few minutes till something is interesting. One thing that I like to do is if I am taking a picture of someone who's like, you know, quote unquote posing for the camera or a little bit like doesn't want to have their picture taken, I'll take a couple of those pictures and then I'll say, okay, done. And then I'll take a couple more when they think that we're done. But they like relax, they become themselves and then like maybe they'll like laugh in a genuine way cause they're not posing for the camera anymore because I think that I'm done taking the pictures and then those kept pictures a lot of

the time. Or like the golden gems where it's like that's them for real after they think the posting is done.

Raymond: 39:40 That is a great tip. That is a great tip. I think everybody's always looking for how to get more genuine photos while in a post and a, if anybody follows that, that's, I don't see how it couldn't work. I, it's funny, I interviewed, um, I believe it was, oh, I interviewed Kevin Mullins, who's a, who's a documentary wedding photographer from the UK a few weeks ago. I'm trying to remember. A few years ago, I watched a video that was all about documentary wedding photography. I can't remember if it was Kevin Mullins or if it was actually Zach areas, but regardless of the tip was, um, when he wants to take a photo of somebody, he'll go up to them, um, to, to make sure that they're not, you know, like Kimra aware or whatever. Um, and then he will, uh, take their picture. They're gonna look at them, no way. You know, I just screwed the whole thing up.

Raymond: 40:27 But there was something to the effect of like looking down, no, like looking up. Oh yeah, that was it. Okay, here we go. Let me start again. He walks up to them. Uh, he'll like take a picture. He'll make it look like he's taking a picture of the sky so that the people don't care. They don't think that he's looking at them and then he'll point the camera at them and make it appear as if he's looking at the photo that he just took. Now these people are, you know, they're not aware of the photo being taken to them, completely relaxing for the camera. That's when he takes the shot. And uh, it just getting that, that kind of natural reaction, which is a, uh, what you were just sharing there. And that was a very roundabout way of getting there. But once again, fantastic tip. Fantastic tip.

Aaron Nace: 41:06 Yeah, that's super cool. And you know, like I get it, like I try not to feel like I'm taking advantage of anyone. So at the end I'm going to show them the pictures and be like, Hey, look at these awesome pictures. We gotta be sure the goal is to like, I want people to feel really good about the pictures that I take of them. You know, like I think as long as that's your goal, you really can't do wrong. You know, it's, it's when we'd run into situations where, you know, we feel like maybe we're taking advantage of the people we're photographing. That energy to me is something that I always try to avoid, you know, so it's not, it's not a secrecy in the way of like, this is for me, it's a secrecy of like, this is actually for you and it's a way where we're going to get really great pictures of you if you don't like them or delete them. Like, I have no interest personally in posting images of people that they don't like. Like, you know, this is, it's not for me, it's for them. So, you know, if they're happy with their photographs, like cool. My, my job is, you know, I've got a gold star. Right?

Raymond: 42:13 Yeah, yeah. I get that sticker from the day for sure. Exactly. Exactly. Uh, well, uh, Aaron, I, I, I really want to be conscious of your time. We've been speaking for almost an hour now, so I only got two last questions for Ya. Are you ready? Let's do it. Okay. Uh, so wow. I hope that this conversation, uh, was helpful to, to many listening. Um, it definitely was for me, so I have to thank you for that. Uh, there's, there's just no replacing practice. And this is where obviously PHLEARN comes in, uh, on flaring. You have mini tutorials. I want to know where do you think that listeners should start? Like what, what, what is lesson number one? What is something that everybody should know when it comes to uh, editing or the post production side of photography?

Aaron Nace: 43:00 So as I said earlier, light room in my opinion is step one and Photoshop is step two. So if you're interested in learning light room, we've got fantastic tutorials. We've got a tutorial called the beginner's guide to like room classic, which is starting from, Hey, I've never opened this program all the way to the, by the end of the tutorial you're like, oh, I know how to use Lightroom classic now. And I feel like I can improve my photographs through what I've learned. That's a great place to start. If you're interested in light room for desktop and mobile, we have a tutorial on Lightroom, desktop and mobile. All these

are available on PHLEARN.com and it's a subscription service, kinda like Netflix. So you just pay monthly and you get access to everything. There's a really great discount if you pay annually and you just get access to everything so you can kind of take your learning to the next step. Uh, when you're ready to start learning Photoshop, we've got a tutorial called the beginner's guide to Photoshop, which is the perfect place to start learning Photoshop. So we try to just make that process a little bit easier. So like, you know, here's a great place to start. And then when you're comfortable with Lightroom, when you're comfortable with Photoshop, we've got some other tutorials that are gonna really kind of stretch you and teach you all the wonderful things that you can do in these programs.

Raymond: 44:18 I love it. Perfect. Those, those definitely the place to check it out. I've been watching PHLEARN videos for years and I can tell you personally that they have helped me, uh, fixed many problems with my father. So a personal five there. Um, and I can, I can attest to that too. The quality of these videos, you guys spend no expense. So, um, of course I got one last question for Ya. And it is, I would think that the most frequently asked question that I get about editing is how do I know when I'm done? Can you please shed some light on this question?

Aaron Nace: 44:54 So I would say, again, being goal oriented when you start is a great way to know when you're done. If you have really no goals, it, it's, it's hard to know where you're going. You know, it's, I think about it like when I get into my car, if I don't have any destination in mind, I'm just going to drive around for a while. Right? And how do you know when you're done driving around? Right? But if you have a destination, it's pretty obvious when you get there. Uh, so I would say that that's a fantastic place to start. Another little test that I give is just the do I like this image test. And for that test, my recommendation is to take a little bit of a break from your editing. So go ahead and work on an edit and get it to the point where you feel pretty good about it and take a break. Could be five, 10 minutes a day is even better. Come back and look at it again. And if you still like the image you're done. Yeah. If there's something about it that you don't like, then you got a new goal in mind and you can go to work and try to fix that. But if you like the image you're done and you know what? Some images, you'd like the image straight out of camera, so you're done.

Raymond: 46:02 Yeah. It doesn't require a much, much extra than that. So, uh, just kind of follow up on that. Um, every photo doesn't necessarily need to be edited.

Aaron Nace: 46:16 Um, no, every photo does not need to be edited. I think most photos can benefit from a little bit of editing, but again, it's not always a huge edit. Maybe it's just like bringing your shadow levels a little bit brighter, increasing the vibrance a little bit, adding a little bit of texture and clarity. Like it's not every photo needs to be edited. You know, greatly or to a huge degree, but there's a good chance that you could improve little aspects of your photographs and those areas still issue, you know, warrants a little editing. I took issue, uh, photos of my partner and I recently at the Garfield Park Conservatory here in Chicago and you know, we were photographing out of the window and I wanted that to be exposed properly. But I, you know, she and I worked dark, we were a little bit too dark, so I brought that into light room mobile on my phone. I use the brush selection tool, so I brushed over our faces and brought up the exposure a little bit and then boom, we were properly exposed and the background was properly exposed as well. So not a huge edit, but something that definitely helped the photograph.

Raymond: 47:23 Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, Aaron, again, I have to thank you for on sharing everything that you did. Um, like I said, you opened up my eyes to a lot of things that I didn't know about, uh, about editing. And I know that the listeners, uh, are just going to be blown away and that they probably need a notepad right now. They've probably already filled it out. Again, thank you so much for coming on. Before I let you go, can

you please share with the listeners where they can learn more about you and PHLEARN as well?

Aaron Nace: 47:53 Yeah, for sure. So, you know, p h learn.com is just a fantastic place to start and we have hundreds and hundreds of free tutorials available. So if you're interested in the idea of editing but you're not ready to start spending money, check out a, some of those free tutorials and you'll get a good sense of what you can do. And then when you're ready, you can go ahead and subscribe and get access to all of our pro content as well. Um, we're on PHLEARN on Instagram and Facebook and all of the major social media platforms as well. So if you want to connect to us, we'd love to hear from you.

Raymond: 48:27 Perfect. Wonderful. Aaron, again, thank you so much for coming on and, uh, hope to chat to you soon.

Aaron Nace: 48:32 Yeah. So good. Thanks Raymond.

Raymond: 48:34 This interview was a tough one. I'm not going to lie. When I was coming up with questions it was difficult to, uh, figure out things to talk about that were more uh, technical things that could be explained. Uh, you know, over over audio cause editing is, is, is technical. It's more technical than it is philosophical like photography. I tried my best and I really hope that you enjoyed this interview, but like I said, I, Aaron had a little bonus for you. Listeners of the podcast as Aaron mentioned on the, uh, his website PHLEARN. He offers, uh, Lightroom and Photoshop training. He wanted me to give you the code BEGINNER20. That is BEGINNER20, one word, no spaces or anything to take 20% off of a yearly subscription to PHLEARN. So now you can learn anything and everything you would ever want to know about Photoshop and Lightroom for 20% off. So a huge thank you to Aaron and the whole PHLEARN team specifically in loop a for that one. Okay. So that is it for this week's episode, and until next week, I want you to get out. I want you to keep shooting. I want you to focus on yourself and I want you to be safe. All right. I love you all.

Outtro: 49:50 If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.

BPP 159: Chris Owens - How to Photograph the Indianapolis 500

Chris Owens is the manager of photo operations at the Indianapolis motor speedway, home of the Indy 500. Today Chris talks about the logistics of how to cover such a large event.

Become A Premium Member is access to more in-depth questions that help move you forward!

In This Episode You'll Learn:

• How Chris got his start in photography

• What an indy car photographer does and the job title of photography manager of the indianapolis motor speedway

• What Chris shoots monday through friday when there is no race

• How persistence paid off when trying to get hired as a race car photographer

• How far in advance the photography team has to prepare for the Indianapolis 500

• Logistically how to photography an event as large as the Indianapolis 500

• How many photographers are on Chris’s staff and how they keep in contact

• How to creatively photography race cars

• How to add story elements in photos

• How many pictures are taken of the Indianapolis 500

• What happens to the photos once the race is over

• The one piece of advice Chris would give to any new race car photographer

Resources:

• Indianapolis 500 Photographer Chris Owens Website

• Chris Owens on Instagram

• Learn More about Indy Car

Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

Full Interview Transcription:

Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.

Raymond Hatfield:            00:00:00       Welcome to the beginner photography podcast, where today we're talking about how to capture race cars barreling towards you at 230 miles an hour. So let's get into it.

Intro:              00:00:11       Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfield, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raymond interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now with you as always, husband, father, home brewer, La Dodger Fan, and Indianapolis wedding photographer Raymond Hatfield.

Raymond:            00:00:39       Welcome back to this interview of the beginner photography podcast. I am Raymond Hatfield and we have a great show lined up for you today, all about photographing Indy cars. Now, if you're not so much into motor sports, I think that you will still pick up a lot from this interview specifically about how much goes into getting the shot in such a high pressure environment. So be sure to stay tuned. But first I want to give a listener shout out this week to Tina sims who left a wonderful five star review in iTunes. Tina says, this podcast is a must. Listen. It is a photography life changer. I have an entire new way to approach my photographs when I am behind the camera. I am in charge now. The camera is not in charge. Keep it up please. Well, your wish is my command, Tina. I will keep it up and thank you so much for your review.

Raymond:            00:01:38       Reviews are truly the best way to help out the podcast. And if this is your first time listening to the beginning of photography podcast, go ahead and hit that subscribe button. It is free and every week you too can experience the same joy and excitement about photography as Tina. Thank you again, Tina. I have a personal story to share with you. Uh, back in 1988, right before I was born, my father bought a Pentax k 1000 film camera. Now, uh, he pissed he passed. He passed on many years ago and as I got older, uh, I didn't even know that he had this camera until I had went to film school. I came back for, I believe it was Thanksgiving and my mom pulled it out and said that she had found it in a closet and wanted me to have it. Cause obviously, uh, I was interested in photography and uh, and film at the time.

Raymond:            00:02:28       So she gave it to me and this camera was, it was really interesting. It was really cool because at the time I had a, I knew how to shoot manual. Uh, so I went out and I wasn't intimidated by the camera at all. Um, so I went out and I shot a few rolls of film and when I got the photos back, it was just so cool to see the process. Right. It was so cool to see the images, but I quickly learned that one, as they say, photography is much more expensive than digital, which it is. And for two, I didn't realize this at the time, but, um, the same settings on a digital camera don't exactly relate to a film camera because film, uh, interacts differently with light. Uh, each film stock is entirely different and therefore you don't always know exactly how the photo is going to turn out.

Raymond:            00:03:16       And I realized that a lot of my photos did not turn out, um, the way that I wanted them to. So, uh, while I saw that it was cool, it kind of felt more, uh, not like a gimmick that's wrong, but it kinda felt more like a, like a fun thing to do rather than a way to photograph the world as I saw it. So, uh, you know, I just had it and I'd shoot a few roles here and there throughout the year, but I really didn't spend too much time with it. I focused a lot more on digital, but, uh, one time I, then I believe I dropped it or it was in a bag and it got knocked around or something. And then the light meter inside did not work anymore. It stopped working and I was pretty upset. I tried to get the light meter fixed, but it ended up, uh, I was quoted, uh, more than the cost of a new k 1000 to fix it.

Raymond:            00:04:06       So I thought not worth it. So I just didn't, I didn't fix a light meter. And then for, for several years I didn't really shoot any film, um, until probably this last, uh, last maybe two years. I then started shooting film again, uh, since I feel like I can see light a whole lot better now than I, than I did back then. So I don't rely on that light meter as much. Um, but over the past two weeks I put out two rolls of film through the camera and shot, just kind of whatever I felt like shooting and I went to go get that film developed, uh, at our local, a camera store in Indianapolis called Roberts Camera. And shout out to Adam if you're listening right now. He's the, uh, he's the guy behind the camera. He's the guy behind the counter and uh, it was just awesome to chat with him for a little bit, but when I got the photos back, when I got the scans back of the, uh, developed film, I'll tell you what, I will tell you what man, there's something about photos, film photos.

Raymond:            00:05:08       I don't know if it's, I mean it's a combination of everything, but I can't exactly put my finger on it, but there's a richness of the colors. There's, there's a feel feel and there's really nothing quite like film when you shoot it. Right. So I'm kind of on this high of the excitement and, um, you know, looking back at this film, I've made it my mission this week to shoot more film, which means, uh, I am to save, uh, on developing costs. I'm going to have to buy some gear to develop my own film at home. And surprisingly, you're looking into it today. It's all much less than I expected. Uh, so I'm really excited to get going on that. And if you are in the beginner photography podcast, Facebook group, no doubt, you will be sure to get the updates on, uh, some new projects that I'm working on.

Raymond:            00:05:58       So super excited about that. All right, well let's get into this week's interview. This was a big one for me and I am completely in awe as you're here this whole time. Uh, speaking with Chris, uh, he is a, he was an open book and it was just great to see kind of behind the curtains of what it takes to really photograph an event like the Indianapolis 500. So if you're ready, hold on tight because it is about to get crazy. Chris Owens is the manager of photo operations at the Indianapolis Motor speedway home of the Indy 500 today. I'm excited to talk about the logistics of how to cover such a large event. So Chris, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Chris Owens:        00:06:41       Hey Raymond. Thanks for having me.

Raymond:            00:06:43       I am really excited to get into this, uh, episode. Obviously living here in Indianapolis. Um, uh, I've actually kind of a transplant to indi, uh, but growing up my family has been into racing, so I've always known of the Indy 500. So moving out here was really exciting. And this year actually after having been here for seven years, was my first time going to the 500. And it was quite as it did. It did, it did. But it was, it was an amazing spectacle, um, uh, to actually see in person and then to find out that you who have been following on Instagram for a long time for that reason. Um, to actually see you working was a really cool thing. But before we get into, like I said, the logistics of shooting an event like the 500, can you share with the listeners how you, uh, first got your start in photography?

Chris Owens:        00:07:33       Um, you know, that's, that's kind of a, there is really a few ways. It's kind of interesting. I more sometimes say that photography kind of found me, um, growing up as a kid, uh, with a lot of events and of course car races, which kind of explains where I am today. But, um, I was always gifted a disposable 35 millimeter camera when we'd go to those events. And, um, you know, I just was so, I was so passionate, so interested in like the Indiana Pacers and like, you know, NBA basketball on car racing and all that. Growing up it was really important to me to capture these events on this camera. And it wasn't, the camera was something I was asked for. It was just given to me. Um, so that was really great to be able to not forget, which is a lot of my relationship with photography.

Chris Owens:        00:08:20       I think what also interested that, and me growing up was just, I didn't want to forget some of these special moments. So, you know, between that and then actually early childhood, the strangest thing, I was actually gifted, um, as well as like a toy. I'm talking like four or five years old, this old like German camera. My grandfather brought back, I guess, like my parents didn't want to mess with it or wasn't important to them or whatever, but this was literally in my toy box. So I can remember like walking around and like marking things up with this camera and, uh, and literally saying the words, you know, make it work, make it work. I knew it did something. I knew it wasn't just you walk around with this. So I think that like, it was really embedded with me at a young age. And then, um, as a senior in high school, you know, I, we finally, actually as a junior in high school, um, they offered a photography class, uh, at school. And I instantly knew whenever I heard and you know, saw that was on the list, I was like, yes, I will be very interested in this. Um, because I had already, you know, been shooting all these things with my disposable 35 millimeter. And also, um, even like buying them with allowance, which is kind of weird for a kid to do, you know, there's all this

Raymond:            00:09:34       I did the same thing, man.

Chris Owens:        00:09:37       Yeah. And I remember I actually have even these 35 millimeter negs where I'd set toys up in the yard and moved them. They would shoot, like tried to make a flip book. Of course I had like no tripod and the, they were out of focus, everything. So I looked horrible. But, um, you know, that photography class I'd always been, I wouldn't, being so young, I wouldn't say a photographer, but I had an interest in new of photography. So, you know, once I got going in that, um, things just really took off. I had a great photography teacher, Lenny buyer, Walter and high school, and he was just super supportive of my, um, just me being overzealous for photography, which, um, it gets quite a bit stranger from there. So after taking that class and you know, being a senior in high school and making these like life decisions of like, what am I going to go to school for, what am I going to do? Well, as I'm kind of going through those moments in life, ,

Chris Owens:        00:10:37       you know, I kind of started to venture towards media, which is kind of, you know, obviously in the same realm, but radio and, um, then with the day you graduate from my high school, they give you a letter okay. That you don't remember because you write it to yourself when you're in fourth grade. All right. So I opened this letter and I'm like, this is the coolest thing ever. What is, you know, fourth grade me gonna have to talk about, well, there's questions

Raymond:            00:11:06       and you don't remember this at all.

Chris Owens:        00:11:08       I mean, now I do, I do now. But when you're a senior in high school, you don't remember, you didn't remember that was waiting on you. Does that make sense? Until you get it and you go, Oh yeah, we did this years ago. So you know, there's some pre drafted questions that teachers make up for you and to have you answer, well mine was, what do you want to be when you grow up?

Chris Owens:        00:11:31       Don't ask me why. Some reason on this day I write a ESPN or sports illustrated photographer. It gave me chills. It shook me. I was like, this is weird cause I'm really right in my life. I'm really interested in the photography. And then that's when I think I even realized that at that age of 18, like this is something that's Kinda been with me for awhile. Um, so, you know, from there I got to school and um, started doing the radio and the media thing and I was like, no, I'm a photographer because all I was doing in my free time was right around and taking pictures. So from there, you know, I just kinda started to pursue my passion for photography. I've always photographed my friends. Um, and just snapshots are my favorite. I know that sounds awful cause everybody's trying to be an artist and they're trying to get all these trade of images and I am too. Um, but I find that I get a lot of those by just messing around, taking snapshots.

Raymond:            00:12:29       Yeah. Yeah. I get that. That's, that's an incredible story. So at what point did it go from, you know, graduating high school, you're now working in radio and then deciding that you wanted to be a photographer to finally working at, well, okay, let me rephrase this question before we actually get into how you started working at the, at the Indianapolis Motor speedway. Can you tell me first what your job title entails

Chris Owens:        00:12:56       at the speedway? Yes. Yes. Okay. So I'm the manager of photography, uh, for the Indianapolis Motor speedway and indycar series. And that has a lot of responsibilities and a lot more responsibilities than the fun part, which is shooting. Um, there's some days I feel like I'm lucky to get out there and shoot, but, um, I have an incredible staff, um, that, that helps with that. So I guess, sorry to back up. Um, to answer your question, just to, to say a little bit about what would I do there, I guess as the manager of photography, um, so that would involve like selecting all photographers who, uh, for my staff, for the Indy and IMS staff that go to all indycar races, um, picking their travel dates, um, you know, making sure they get hotels, all that kind of stuff. Um, coordinating shoots, uh, you know, booking shoots for our studio days where we do our like wipe drought backdrop, media portraits.

Chris Owens:        00:13:58       Um, I shoot day to day, whatever pops up. And most of what my job is is popups. So that will be like, um, you know, So and So from the Indiana Pacers is dropping by and they are going to take a tour of the museum and go for a pace car ride and all that. I'm your guy, I'm there. So when you see the picture on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, or the still at the beginning of the youtube video, um, you know, that's something that me or my staff, um, shot. Um, yeah, from there it was just cool. Yeah,

Raymond:            00:14:34       I think, I think that sounds like a dream job for a lot of people. You know, a lot of people loved the creativity of photography, but maybe they're, they don't want to venture into the business side of things. And I think the idea of, of working, uh, under a company or something to still be able to create what it is that they want to, um, just sounds amazing and myself included. I think this sounds very cool. So,

Chris Owens:        00:15:01       and that's, yeah, it is, but I'll, I will say as a photographer is, is huge adjustment for me to go from being a staff photographer and having people, you know, being just being a shooter know, that's a lot different. That's, I could handle that. And I, and I, I did handle that and I love that. And I love being, obviously in a manager role too. It just means a lot more emails. I can't a lot more meetings and planning and really when it's event on a time that you are, um, that you're out shooting, doing what you love, that's actually a moment you are getting behind on planning. Tomorrow's, you know, of front row photo shoe and it comes down to little things like making sure there's chairs there, making sure there's a flag of the nationality of the Poll Sitter. I was, I was running around the offices at any atlas motor speedway up 5:00 AM frantic the day of the front row shoot looking for Simon Pagenaud's, French flag and then we have, it just, it's, there's, there's a lot of things people don't understand yeah. About that. And um, if you want a role like this, you know, obviously starting as a beginner in photography, but if you want to grow into a role, um, like something like this, they do exist. I'm proof of it. But you just have to know that shooting becomes the last thing. Sometimes you're far too busy taking pictures to even go take pictures, if that makes any sense at all. Taking pictures that are required parts of the job.

Raymond:            00:16:36       Yeah. Yeah. So thank you for sharing that. That is, that's a great insight into, into your position. Can you tell me now how, how this job became available for you, how you found out about it and how you pursued it?

Chris Owens:        00:16:51       Well, um, you know, I first basically my first introduction to the Indianapolis Motor speedway was like 2004, I think I was 14 or 15, a youth group, um, at school with, you know, I wasn't a part of, but I was really into car racing and drag racing and all that as a kid. So living in Indiana, you know what this Indy 500 thing, right? Like you were talking about earlier. Um, I'm just like, you know what, I need to check mark off my motor sports adventure list. I want to go with these people. So I'm like, yeah, I get, I'll go, I'll go. We went, um, you know, they send us there. We supposed to flip burgers like in a, uh, one of the concession stands for the youth group or whatever. They said somebody needs to take a break first. I was so jack up about the place, I'll take a break first.

Chris Owens:        00:17:42       You guys work, I'll come and shift. You know, I left with a few friends. We never came back the whole day. They were, they were pissed. The bus was waiting on us, like it was full. All the kids were mad. We left like an hour late because we were over like try to seek victory circle. So you know that, that really watching those cars, anybody that's been to a professional car race or especially the Indy 500 seeing those cars come past you for the first time, you'll never forget. It's incredible. And um, you know, at the same time I have pictures from that day cause I might disposable, you know, so I, these wheels were turning far before I knew. Um, so you know, from there kept going to the race and as I got as a senior in high school, like we were talking about may is when you graduate and may's during the 500.

Chris Owens:        00:18:30       I'm thinking about it. I remember sitting in turn three with my camera going, there is a person who works here, this is their job to take these photos. I couldn't never have this job because someone has it, but I can have a job like this. One day I remember telling myself that and inside I turned three and um, you know, from there ended up transferring, um, really to be closer to Indianapolis, the city and the track. I've always loved the track, transferred to Indianapolis to go to a art school here and you know, just started knocking on the door out there at the track. Um, started showing up. I showed up twice there and the manager of photography, that time, director of photography, he wasn't there. Um, but I was given a phone number and an email address started sending to that, started sending that wasn't hearing anything back.

Chris Owens:        00:19:22       And really all I wanted to do was try to build a portfolio and um, be a fanboy. At the same time. You have pictures of my favorite race cars and race car drivers and um, you know, after doing that long enough and sending those emails, um, just being persistent, just keep going like, you know, monthly sending an email, hey, hey, hey, just because I knew I only had one shot, so, um, if they don't respond, you know, you, you, you keep going. And I would tell that to any photographer, um, that wants a position. Sometimes people, they're not ignoring you or it's something they don't like you, they're just busy. And I feel horrible because it happens to me sometimes people are like, I sent you an email on may whatever, or a random April weekend when I'm in Long Beach shooting the Long Beach Grand Prix. And I'm like, I got 40 emails that day and I was doing another shooting as well, you know.

Chris Owens:        00:20:20       So, um, to finish up on that though, how I got there, eventually I, I was working, selling cameras and I always kept, uh, uh, at a retail store and I always kept a portfolio book on the table. Right. Um, because, uh, as a photography shoot, you'd be promoting yourself and showing your best work. And I always wanted, you know, to keep that they're hoping maybe I could land a job from that in photography one day. Um, right person solid said, these are great race car pictures. Um, I should show these with my friend who was the director of photography at the speed. I was like, yes, you should because I've been trying to do that, um, for a year, you know. Um, and so, you know, she did, she was, you know, I was lucky enough that that person came into my life that day and did that and sent that email.

Chris Owens:        00:21:10       Um, I don't know if you know, he owed her a favor or what, but he responded that day, said, I looked at your pictures on your flicker. I love them. They're the kind of thing we're looking for. Um, because at this time, you know, photography and especially photography is kind of transferring on ditch film to digital. There's still some guys that were, they weren't shooting film, but they were fresh to digital cameras. And this, um, you know, in 2007 maybe they'd been under 10 years shooting digital. So, um, you know, from there I got in just as a volunteer, I would, you know, take time off work unpaid just to go out there and try to shoot every day, you know, scrimping and saving.

Raymond:            00:21:52       So at that point, at that, okay. Actually I got two followup questions for you. One of them you talked about, um, being persistent and following up and keep sending those emails. Is there as somebody now who's in that position who is continually getting emails, is there, um, a fine line between being persistent and, and being pushy, trying to follow up and I know that's something that a lot,

Chris Owens:        00:22:19       well, you know, I'm not sure and I'll tell you why. Um, for me, I like to be, if someone is trying to offer me something that maybe sounds great and is great, but at that point in time I can't use, or maybe, you know, my credential allotment is up, I'm not allowed to add more people or things like that. Um, you know, where I can't shoot something for them that they need shot. For me, it's just important to, to tell the, tell them quickly and be fair and be transparent. Clearance. Say, hey look, thanks for reaching out. I can't do that for you right now. So I think that's also up to whoever you are trying to be persistent towards. If they aren't answering you or they're not giving you clear answers, I me personally, that's my personality. I would say, you know, hit them up, keep returning on your, on your thoughts until they tell you until they are, we can get them to say yes or they decide they do need what you have to offer or they just say, hey look, I'm sorry we can't do that right now. I've had people do that to me and um, I think that I would say, yeah, be, you know, you don't, I don't know what you want to send somebody an email every day saying, hey, I'd love to shoot for your product. Or Hey, I would love to be on shoot for your, um, team company brand. But, um, you know, yeah, I would say do until you get a yes or no. Right,

Raymond:            00:23:46       right, right. Okay. I gotcha. That's, that's a great answer. So this is what you did. You finally got the opportunity to show up and volunteer your time. Was this just a, were you following somebody or was it, hey, here's your credentials. You can just walk around and shoot whatever you want.

Chris Owens:        00:24:05       I gotta be honest with you. I had no idea what I was doing at first. I couldn't believe they brought me on. I've looked back at some of the pictures I sent as a portfolio. They were like, a lot of her were like out of focus. She know. So like, I think that they acknowledged that they needed new blood. They needed, you know, they needed to keep rotating and getting new photographers from new styles. But, um, at first I really didn't get a lot of attention paid to me and I contribute that. Um, I actually think that that really helped because it was literally like, I mean, I was 19 years old. Um, you know, they were like, yeah, man, I, here's your credential. Don't go over the pit wall, don't get hit by a car, you know, things like that, which is easy to do.

Chris Owens:        00:24:51       You, you know, you, it's easy to stay out of the way. But um, it was kind of those things. So stay on the way and come back with some neat pictures. I did it. I mean I, I had, I was hardly coming in and sitting down. I was just out shooting all day, popping whatever I thought looked at me, you know, taking, trying to get a unique perspective really without even knowing I was, because they had all been doing it so long. A lot of them were doing it the same way. So, um, yeah, I really contribute being, not having assignments at first, my first year or two, not having assignments, not having anything. I was responsible for allowing me to go out and kind of make great pictures. I hope that answered your question. I know I already forgot what your question

Raymond:            00:25:37       it was when you first started, did you, did you have assignments or were you kinda off given free reign and uh, you did answer that. You did answer that. So, um, okay, so let's, let's transition a little bit because now you, you're in this position, so let's talk about the 500. The 500 Indianapolis 500 is arguably the, probably the most high profile event that you guys should at the speedway. Is that, is that about right?

Chris Owens:        00:26:03       I mean, without a doubt it's, it's one of your larger single day sporting events or claimed to be the largest single day sporting event in the world. So definitely the biggest thing we got,

Raymond:            00:26:15       I said I did not know that. That's interesting.

Chris Owens:        00:26:17       Yeah. I mean there's, there's events that bring in more people and festivals and things like that, but it might be over a weekend or a week or like the Olympics, you know, more people that's kind of going, but for, you know, for like an eight hour day, it's the time. It's the most people. It's the biggest single largest sporting single day sporting event in the world on, it's right here in Indiana, right here in speedway

Raymond:            00:26:41       every single year. So for an event, like that, how far out does preparation start for the 500 for you?

Chris Owens:        00:26:51       So, you know, that's, that is also interesting. Um, because for us it can be almost a full year effort. And, and why that is is because when you think about what would make sense as yet a few months before we should really start ramping up and you know, transferring our lenses and our computers and you know, loading in and all this stuff. Um, and you know, starting to think about shots from our creative standpoint in marketing, which puts they do earlier in the year, but us sitting down as a team and starting to talk about it, you'd think about us doing that a few months before. But the reality is a few months before, we're already working a car race in Saint Petersburg, Florida, the street race, uh, the ground praise St Petersburg or the Long Beach Grand Pre, uh, we're in Birmingham, Alabama, the, you know, we have a schedule list goes on. So, um, if working on the Indycar side, that is, the indycar series is a championship. Just like any other sport that you know, but they travel from event to event instead of playing team to team, it's event to event trying to win. So yeah, I mean a few weeks before the 500, I'm in another city shooting a car race so that, that makes it very difficult. You're doing a lot of your planning on, um, you know, Wednesday, Thursday or Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday because Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday you're often in another city, um, staff to make quick, quick decisions and how you just have a lot of long hours and that's something you have to be committed to, to have a job of photography

Raymond:            00:28:20       of course. And I think if it's something that you like, tried to pursue, that makes it probably a little bit easier to do though those long days rather than just kind of taking a job because it was the only thing available.

Chris Owens:        00:28:32       100%. Um, I truthfully am lucky enough to say I work very hard, but I really, we've all had jobs and we all have jobs and we work. I, I haven't really worked in a long time. You know what I'm saying? Because of what you just said. When you do what you love, um, it doesn't feel you said it yourself best. It doesn't feel as much like work and, um, it's, it's fun for me all the time to when I met, you know, a party or with friends or meeting New People. I have a lot of pride in getting to say what I do when they say, well, what are you? And it's, that's a great feeling in life to be able to do that. But to hear somebody say, well, what do you do? And just go, I'm a race car photographer and just watch them, watch them just be like, what? This person is an accountant and there's nothing wrong with that. Or this person, you know, does heating and cooling, what do you do? I take race for a post. Well, what do you do? Like that's it. That's how I get a paycheck from that. It's incredible. It's incredible.

Raymond:            00:29:39       Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I, I had the, I had the fortune of, uh, of, of I believe it was two years ago now, photographing when, uh, when red bull came, uh, to, uh, the, where was it? Just I guess whatever.

Chris Owens:        00:29:55       Were they racing motorcycles?

Raymond:            00:29:57       No, no, no, no. It was their, their, their like world rally cross that they were doing, they'd had like a rad across series and I had the fortune to be able to go and like shoot that. And it was, it was an incredibly taxing day. You know, like you said, you're on your feet all day. Uh, you got to the racism very that long. It's a bunch of different legs, you know, so you got to really be prepared. And preparation was, was a huge thing that I had to learn to, to, uh, to expect right. To look forward to there. Um, and I can't imagine, but at the end of the day, my feet were sore. I was sweaty cause it was like 200 degrees that day. And it was, I didn't even do anything with the photos cause it was just, it was just so like enjoyable for me that at the end of the day I felt, you know, I felt fulfilled. So, so you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right.

Chris Owens:        00:30:45       She did. That's where a lot of my work starts is whenever you're done I then am like you have to sit down and crank out cause you're working for the media as well.

Raymond:            00:30:56       Yeah. Yeah. No, I definitely want to get into what happens after we, uh, after we photograph the images. But um, real quick, I want to go back again to kind of kind of the prep side of, um, of the 8,500. So how many photographers are, are, are under you?

Chris Owens:        00:31:16       So I'm currently, I have somewhere between 15 and 20 photographers and that kind of can adjust. Yeah.

Raymond:            00:31:25       Staff, photographers,

Chris Owens:        00:31:26       they are staff photographers. And you might ask why would it take that many? Um, yeah, I mean you are, a lot of people think that what I'm doing, so how about this and going out and taking the pictures of the race cars. That's the easiest part. That's what everybody wants to do. That is like this much of what is needed for my job. Because you know, whenever you're shooting for a company, and this might, this is, this might be interesting to anyone who's interested in any kind of event photography or shooting something they're passionate about. You know, I'm, what I'm doing is sometimes, sometimes what I'm responsible for may be like, Hey, um, we need pictures of a, a, a beer sponsor is having a party in a pavilion tent during qualifying someone. I need someone to go over there and take a picture of their, their event or what's going on.

Chris Owens:        00:32:26       Well, qualifying check presentation type thing is going on. You know what I mean? So obviously someone has to cover that cause it's the racing. That's why we have jobs and we're there. But at the same time there's something else going on. And then while that's going on there may, um, who knows, it'd be something that's important to the marketing department, some poster autographed poster giveaway that's going on at the same time. Because, you know, at these events, there's things going on for different demographics of people at different times. So, um, you know, and we have requests throughout the whole company. Someone from facilities may say to me, hey, we need a picture of every branded garbage can because that brand paid a lot of money to have their name stapled on every garbage can. You didn't think about stuff like that. You know what I mean?

Chris Owens:        00:33:15       All this is going on. Why on a Friday practice session, while, you know there's a lot going on, it takes a lot of people. And I'm like, at this point, uh, I have myself, I love race car photography. I have so many, you know, photographers on my staff who are so talented at race photography. Um, what's really important to us is, um, our staff, the most valuable right now are the staff that can go out and take a picture of a, um, hospitality event after hours, guests doing track labs, things like that. So those are, those are the kinds of things that are less, you know, glorious about the job. That's, um, you know, people here sometimes they're like, oh yeah, well I'm up at, or you know, you're out shooting race cars and having a good time and doing all this stuff. It's like, I'm also there at 7:00 AM with, um, guests have a sponsor while they take a two seater ride along pace car labs.

Chris Owens:        00:34:13       You know what I mean? That's not as cool as being in victory circle for the indie 500, but it's part of the job. And, um, I got where I am by paying my dues, volunteering and doing those things, you know, and that, and that's how I'd say part of how I got the call for the job, um, was because there was a time where I, I left Indianapolis, I moved to Fort Wayne, um, to be home for about six months. The speedway would still call me. They thought I lived in Minneapolis and they'd say, hey, on a Wednesday, they'd be like, Hey, can you come take pictures of these people doing pace lap rides on a Wednesday in October? Tomorrow? I'd be like, yeah, I drive two hours. You know, just to go down, just to stay in good graces and to show them that I was committed to them. And that's kind of dedication. You have to have. 'Em

Raymond:            00:35:03       and you said how many years it took you to do that to, to, to kind of get the attention.

Chris Owens:        00:35:11       I've been about three years of doing that until, um, you know, they got to the point where the director of photography had retired and they kind of started looking around for, um, I guess lack of a better term, a new and young perspective. And um, they called and asked me if I'd come in and talk about it and I lost my mind the coolest day of my life at that point. It was pretty awesome.

Raymond:            00:35:39       Yeah, no, I can imagine. I can imagine. That is so awesome. That is an awesome story. Um, for, for those, for those who have never been, who are, who have never had the, uh, uh, the, the ability to go to the Indianapolis Motor speedway. It is, it's huge. Uh, so I did a little research and within the walls of the ims you could fit a, it's like the Roman coliseum, all of Churchill downs where they have the Kentucky Derby, all of Liberty Island where the Statue of Liberty is the Rosebowl stadium, which is the second largest college football stadium, the Taj Mahal, the White House and the entire Vatican City. Oh. And dodger stadium. All of this can fit within the walls of the ims. It is massive. So on race day for the 500, there's no way that you could possibly shoot everything. How do you decide what gets covered and what doesn't?

Chris Owens:        00:36:39       Yes. Um, also to follow up on your saying how big it is, sometimes it will be pouring rain in turn three and we will be on the front stretch and they'll call a yellow flag for safety. And we're like, what's, what's wrong? It's a sunny day over here. It's that big. I'm not kidding. That's not a joke. And I'll be like, there's rain in three and then you look in, there's like a cloud over there. But, um, yeah, I guess how do I, your question is how do you choose what to do? How do you get it all? How can you attempt to get it all? You can't, it's too big too and too big of an event and too many things going on. First off. That's why obviously we're working on a staff, but, um, you know, like you said, it's about preparation. Um, there's not a whole lot of time to prepare during, um, an event like this because I'll be shooting the day before a couple of days before the 500 or even the day before the 500.

Chris Owens:        00:37:31       I have events to shoot. And sometimes it's not leaving there till nine at 10 at night done with your product, with your photos, editing and all that. So, you know, you're not gonna stay there longer and you can, I have, but to, to plan things, you've gotta do a lot of this earlier in the month. And a lot of what it comes down to is, um, seeing what other photographers have done, saying, Ooh, this is great, but they, that's a nice photo that somebody took it a 500, they kind of missed this. I would've done it this way to put this in. Um, so basically, you know, lack of a better term, I don't want to say stealing other people's images, but all, you know, all creative, all creative thoughts and images that they've all already been made. The only thing you can do is elaborate and make yours and make a different way what kind of others have done.

Chris Owens:        00:38:28       And sometimes in the process you make something that you never, um, you never, you've never, and that is new and fresh. And to me that's the best advice. I'm oil and being creative, uh, and doing something new. But for me, um, really doing that image investigation from what I've shot from what others have shot in years past, how do we make it better? Um, cold day in the winter when there's not as much going on, going somewhere in a facility that you have an idea for of a co where a car would look on track or where the fans are going to be. I've done that a dozen times where I'm up in the stands with a camera in February, you know, and I'm having cold snowy that that might work. I have to wait till people get here. I have to wait till there's cars on the track.

Chris Owens:        00:39:16       But um, you know, preparation, just being, being prepared, thinking ahead. Um, throughout the year, keeping notes, I like to kind of keep a next year's 500 note on my computer. I recommend anybody who shoots an event, um, or shoots a regular reoccurring event. Does that do it? When it's fresh, you kind of jot down and then by the time you get ready to investigate it, if you can remember what your notes mean, you can, you know, you might be able to make something neat, um, from it. Uh, also, you know, my rule of thumb is to start really the, this might sound silly to you, but kind of planning equipment, even the the day before. I know it's a stretch, but um, you know, even like, you know, before I go out and do something, I used to have an issue a lot where I'd get up to a point like, uh, I forgot the polarizer I forgot this, I forgot that you really have to almost make yourself a shot list, which is a personal shot lists.

Chris Owens:        00:40:17       Obviously we have one for all our photographers, but one for you, what do you want to achieve and what equipment are you going to have to take with you? I've been known to make a small on my phone. All the men make basically a small list of I need to get this equipment for the day. And that's, that's how you don't forget it because it's crazy running in and out the door shooting assignment needs to be uploaded quick. You walk back out the door and you go, I forgot what I was going to bring with me. Um, yeah, hopefully that's some good guy by some preparation, but it's for showing, you know, it's very high paced doing the racing. It just, it's crazy because there's so many items on a, on a daily shot list and

Raymond:            00:40:52       yeah. So there you go. You mentioned the shot list. I kind of want to know a little bit more about this. You talked, does each photographer have their own like region of the, of the uh, speedway that they have to cover and then things within that or is it all free rain free

Chris Owens:        00:41:12       reign and it's kind of all over the place. And back to, you know, when you first asked me some of the responsibilities in my job, this is one of the hardest days of the year. The day before the 500. I have a handful of things I shoot in the morning. And then from there I just, I kind of shut off because I have to make, I don't even know how many items it's, it's well over a hundred item shot list. Okay. And that is things from credentials has, uh, assignments that they, for me, they want things shot for their next year's ticket, something earlier their ticket or their lanyard. Um, you know, every facility like back to facilities, they throw the garbage cans, all this, all that stuff I was talking about. That is all on this race state shot. So I have, it's like making a puzzle that nothing fits and, but you have a knife so you're able to like trying to bend all the pieces and make it flat.

Chris Owens:        00:42:08       That's kind of like what making the Indy 500 race day shot list is. And I mean there's everything on this from who's responsible for shooting the dead center car coming in at victory circle, you know, and who's going to get these milk shots all the way down to um, yeah. Who's going to take the trashcan photos? So m I s and that literally takes me an eight hour day. That takes me a full day to put everything that everyone that works in our company that has an image request that they need on to one document, piece of paper. Um, you know, it's like triple padlocked and a briefcase, so I don't lose it. Um, it's very, it's, it's, um,

Raymond:            00:42:49       it's obviously important right to the speedway too.

Chris Owens:        00:42:52       And a lot of people that are just going out and taking pictures, man. You know, and, and this is kind of where, you know, people who do want to start something at photography have to decide, is that your kind of workflow? Do you want to work like that? You know?

Raymond:            00:43:08       Yeah, of course. And it was you who, uh, d do you play in yourself in the, uh, in the great shots? Cause you, if I remember right from a post that you put on Instagram, you were the one who photographed a willpower last year, uh, drinking the milk that eventually went on the, uh, everybody's tickets. Is that right?

Chris Owens:        00:43:25       I mean, that's kind of the perk, right? I've got a couple things that I kind of planned.

Raymond:            00:43:29       I think that would be filmed in my house.

Chris Owens:        00:43:33       Yeah. So I normally take obviously being the track photographer, the series photographer, any card I normally do the dead center low. Um, you know, car coming in the celebration of the winter and what always, what's really though is great is I have our staff photographers peppered all throughout that grandstand, um, to get the winter and they get better stuff than I do. They get great shots, they get incredible stuff. Um, yeah. I mean really just having an amazing staff of guys is what, um, that's what makes me look good. Those guys are awesome and then I get to do the things that I want to do as well because of them and, and wouldn't be able to do it without them. And that we just have grown so much there. We're getting a really good man.

Raymond:            00:44:22       Good. That's awesome to hear. I mean, every photo that I, that I see comes out as just like, it's not, it's not, you know, the old NASCAR photos that saw growing up in my, in my uncle's garage, like this is new photography. It's fun stuff. And that kind of brings me into my next question, which is obviously when you're shooting film, it costs a lot of money, or at least it costs money. When you take a lot of photos, it costs a lot of money. Uh, so having the ability to shoot digital, you kind of have this freedom to be able to, to, to play around, to add more context to your photos. And ultimately what we're trying to do with the photos simply just tell a story within a single frame. So I would imagine that a photo of a car going, you know, 230 miles an hour around the track can only tell so much. How do you incorporate more story into your images?

Chris Owens:        00:45:15       You know, that is, that is interesting and it's kind of evolved for me. Um, over time there was a point in time where for me just getting the image, the car in the frame and getting it's sharp, like I was like, hell yeah, turn that. You know what I mean? Um, but as time goes on, I've kind of explored myself, um, with different, um, you know, different techniques of doing that. Um, what I like to do, you know, the last few years ago, what was really big to me was I wanted to start showing more of the race tracks, so where a lot of people are doing what I said, they're just zooming in with a zoom lens or getting shot at the car still. Um, to tell its story. I was kinda trying to do more of these big sky shots, car small at the bottom, big sky, and incorporate some motion, slow shutter speed photography.

Chris Owens:        00:46:11       Um, which is another thing obviously to look into. But, um, you know, showing motion in the images anyway you can, um, showing a little more of the venue. That's kind of what's, what's important anymore. Um, employed to me. Uh, and, and then from there, just getting, you don't always have to shoot the car from the back or from the front. Sometimes you can shoot the car from the back, you know what I mean? Um, any angle, any that's any photographer, any race car photographer who's, who's truly invested, these guys, they're like cockroaches. These guys are crawling all over everything. They're there up at the street courses. We're up in the buildings looking down where, you know, we're, you know, you're laying on the ground and shooting through a crack, through a separation in the wall. Your, um, and it's really, that's an important thing to tell beginning photographers is um, that's what makes a good photographer.

Chris Owens:        00:47:08       A lot of photographers are going to these predesignated photo holes that are, you know, a safe bet. You know, you're going to get a photo from it for credentialed photographers. But some of your true, your best images are from somewhere different because think about it, everybody's going to that same hole. So if you're doing something, someone else isn't, whether your images is good or not, there's no comparison. Another one doesn't exist. Yours is the best because it's the only one that exists. Now, if you and I go to both shoot out of the photo hole, you might beat me, right? You might get a better shot because we shot the same picture.

Raymond:            00:47:44       Oh 1000%. Yeah.

Chris Owens:        00:47:46       So I would tell photographers, um, the best way I can find to make myself useful, and I've always thought this and I still try to stick with this, is how many, how many photographers can I turn myself into an issue? So I want to be the guy standing here getting the main shot, right. Cause that's the shot and that's the safety net. And that's what we need. That's what we're all here for. All right, I'm shooting, I'm shooting. I got it, I got it, I got it, I'm done. Let them stay there. And you go around now you go, as long as you're not in their shot, move around and get something different, you know, or if it's something that's not overly important to you or you're not overly invested, but you want a nice photo of, if you see all the photographers are standing over there, you go somewhere different because now you have a one of a kind new different perspective that doesn't exist in the world except for yours because no one was there. But, right. But you pick somewhere new, go somewhere new, go somewhere different.

Raymond:            00:48:41       That is that, that's a great tip. I think just kind of in life, you know, if you just replace the word shot with decision, you know, that's like solid life advice. Right. You should put that on.

Chris Owens:        00:48:53       Maybe I ought to have a job done. Some kidding.

Raymond:            00:48:57       Yeah. Um, yeah, I think, thank you for sharing that. I think, I think a lot of people are going to get a lot of value out of, out of, out of that statement right there. It is something that I don't think is taught as, as practical as that, you know, as clear as that we're told to get different shots. But there were some real concrete examples there including laying on the concrete. So yeah.

Chris Owens:        00:49:18       If it say go for it.

Raymond:            00:49:20       How, how does, uh, camera gear work in a, in a position like this? Is this a job where you bring your own camera gear or is gear provided?

Chris Owens:        00:49:30       Well, um, you know, it's kind of a mix of things. So, um, for, you know, obviously for my staff, um, we have a great partnership, um, you know, with Canon cameras where they let us try out and loan, um, loan us equipment to try out. We own our own, uh, you know, equipment for the company to staff and our photographers have their own equipment. But, um, with the backing of a, uh, cannon professional services, which travels to a lot of sporting events and events in general and, and car races, um, you know, those guys are awesome. They, uh, they, they provide a lot of, uh, unique equipment for us to try and, uh, then if we, you know, like that, and that's something obviously to purchase, um, down the road. So Canon is, uh, is pretty awesome stuff. It's a great equipment for the, uh, you know, for action in sports. It's always been known for that myself. I've shot an icon in the past and that stuff was great. Um, but you just, you really can't, you can't beat the cannon professional services as a professional photographer, um, and their equipment and their people.

Raymond:            00:50:39       So, so I'm going to kind of branch off here. Let's say that you have an idea for an image in your head and it's going to require something like a, something separate, super specialized, uh, either tilt shift or like a 800 Mil Lens and you don't have it. Um, is that something that you would reach out to Canon and say, hey, we want to try the shot. Can you ship something out?

Chris Owens:        00:51:04       You know, that is, I'm not sure what that, I'm not sure how that relationship worked for, um, you know, for, for, um, for all photographers. I know on site at a lot of events that's an option. Um, but yeah, for, for my staff, um, yeah, if that's something canon has available, um, yeah, that's something that they could help out with.

Raymond:            00:51:26       Very cool. Very cool.

Chris Owens:        00:51:27       And then they do that. Like if you're at a, if you know, let's say you were shooting, yeah, I don't know, some kind of sporting event and come canon professional services. They're in your credential photographer. You can go to their booth and you know, and talk to them. They'll clean your lenses, they'll clean your camera bodies, they'll let you borrow lens for the day if you want to try something new. So for photographer credential, that events that CPS canon professional services is at, um, yeah, they'll hook you up and they'll, they'll do it with a smile. They'll clean your camera. Hell of a deal.

Raymond:            00:51:59       Yeah. So for, um, for an event like the 500, which is really a once a year event for your staff photographers, do you, how much do you stress getting the safe shot versus getting that crazy equipment and doing something that's never seen?

Chris Owens:        00:52:17       Oh man, that's, so we need it all. We need it all. You know, the, I think most photographers in what I do and what an in in event photography in general, maybe this, I would imagine this is most photographers, that's the first thing you do. You get your safe shot, you know, you get your sharp still well exposed, you get those out of the way and then you play. And I tried to do that with everything I go do. So if I need to document the way the crowd looked from the stage, I want a picture of a crowd, I just go wide pop it. I normally carry two cameras so I'll go wide high shutter. So it's nice and still in sharp opposite. Then if I want to do something, if I have another creative lens with me or I want to do a zoom, you know in or show some depth, then I play from there.

Chris Owens:        00:53:05       But um, I think that's probably, you know, I do that with my on the side. I do concert photography and I do that with that too. I think that safe you, you really as a photographer, I mean everybody wants the flashy, the banger shot, the amazing picture. You really got to cover your bases first cause that's how you have clients, that's how you keep clients. So, um, you know, get your staple, get your, get your stuff out of the way that you know is required and then play because at the end of the day, this stuff they're probably gonna use is going to be all your creative stuff anyway. But if you don't get the still sharp documentation shot than what they hired you for, you know, it's a tortured game. This whole photography thing, it's a lot of fun, but it's um, you're constantly in your head bouncing back to not wanting to do what you're doing and wanting to do it a different way. You're just being torn. You know?

Raymond:            00:53:58       I haven't thought about it like that. That's a, that's very true though. That's very true. Yeah. They'll always be mad if you don't get the safe shot. Never be mad if you get a more creative shot.

Chris Owens:        00:54:08       Right.

Raymond:            00:54:11       Um, so, uh, okay, so, so we go, we know what needs to be covered the day of the 500. We know who's going where, what shots they need to get the equipment that they need to use as well. Winners, you know, the winner wins. You Go, you photograph the milk, you photograph the kiss of the bricks, you come back. And how many photos would you say that you have at the end of the day? A, of the 500. Do you happen to know from this year's numbers? I mean, is it thousands?

Chris Owens:        00:54:39       Yes, yes, yes. I would guess that it's in the years past. Um, you know, I would say probably I would for some reason the number like four or 5,000 sticks out to me. That might be crazy. But um, you just from the five photography, yes, just from me, but um, at the same time I have learned and having more responsibilities and more assignments and understanding of what will and won't work in photography and have to track that number for me has gone down a little. I recommend for anybody who's a new shooter, shoot a ton cause you have more things to choose from. But, and especially if you have time and none another job following up, you know, me, after shooting the 500 on Sunday, I then have an assignment and the next morning at like 8:00 AM with the winner. So I've learned over the years if I take 5,100 photos as 5,000 pictures I have to look at and I have to spend five seconds with making a decision whether I'm going to use it, whether I'm going to scrap it. So to think about that too, you know. Um, yeah, so I, um, I want to say like this year is probably quite a bit less. Probably half of that probably took a couple of thousand photos on race day. Tons of them are from victory circle. Whenever, you know, when the winter gets out of the car from there, I'm not going to lie to you. It's, you know, the still that you see that's the one, it's not some creative genius. It is a one picked out of 300 from a, you know, so, um,

Raymond:            00:56:16       again, you got to get that safe shot.

Chris Owens:        00:56:18       Yeah, you got it. I couldn't wait though for the one second, for the decisive moment. But I know, no,

Raymond:            00:56:25       you still have a job to do and there's a lot on the line, so I get it. So you mentioned earlier that your job kind of starts at the end of the race, right? Because now you have all of these photos. So what happens to the images after race day?

Chris Owens:        00:56:40       So the last couple of years, the way we've done it is, you know, kind of stand there. I'll wait. I'll get that reaction shot from the winter. And then once that shot, once those shots are done, the winter goes out to the yard of bricks and does their, um, kissing of the bricks and some other traditional shots at the speedway. Um, at that point I then literally sprint like I run into the media center, throw the card in because at that point, you know that that moment's already five minutes ago. And that's, that's what the racing world is. Uh, you know, in sports world is waiting for. So, um, I have been somewhat to fill in for me and do some of the other sponsor commitment photos with the winter. Um, you know, and then from there you're just, you're there all night, you're there until, you know, if the race gets over and I don't even know, cause I never have time to look at the clock.

Chris Owens:        00:57:36       Three, four, whatever it is. I'll be there till nine 30 or 10. And then eventually you just, you call it quits, you go, you get tired and go, I have, this is what I'm going to have. These are the images I'm going to have from this event, you know, bundle them up, ready to turn them into our internal archive. And I put them on our, um, our media page where media goes to get images, um, you know, after our events. And of course some of them are more important than others. So I'm throwing some of those up while I'm trying to finish the rest. I mean, it's a juggle and it's a constant brain assessment of what's the use of this image? How important is it? Who needs it? Can they wait a day? Does it need to be shown to the world now? Um, you're just firing on all cylinders mentally and physically for an entire day of the 8,500.

Chris Owens:        00:58:23       Um, and you know, when you're out shooting, sometimes you're waiting on a shot. You see this awesome shot, the one you want the shot and you go, I can wait your two more minutes for this because there's so many other things going on. So for me, it's just an entire day of celebrating your victories and like not, you know, walking away from your losses. And, um, and then having a plan before the day starts, before the month starts of on race day, I want to go to this spot and get this shit. I want to shot, I want to do this shot this way, I want to do this shot this way. Um, and having them in mind and not spending too much time anywhere, just bouncing.

Raymond:            00:59:00       Yeah. I would imagine that for every shot that you do get, there's gotta be at least one or 10 more shots that you don't get that you,

Chris Owens:        00:59:06       every year that I was a part of, I was there for, I'm just like, oh, it's okay, but it's not that cool, you know?

Raymond:            00:59:11       Right, right, right. So, okay. So, so just to clarify, when you run back to the media center and then you said that you're there all night, you're going through those photos, you're selecting of the, uh, the images that are, that are going to go out, right?

Chris Owens:        00:59:25       Yup. Correct. Correct.

Raymond:            00:59:27       So when, when you're doing that, about how many images would you say go into the, uh, go into the, I believe you said the archive of the,

Chris Owens:        00:59:39       yeah. You know, for the day, I probably contribute, I would say under four, around maybe 400, 300

Raymond:            00:59:50       and that's between all the, the photographers?

Chris Owens:        00:59:54       No, that's my cell for the day. Yes. Those are just mine. And others, you know, they have, they might do the same or are more. Um, I, I don't, my big thing is I don't, I was told, you know, from my photography teacher young and I stuck with this, that a photographer only shows their best work. I don't find benefit in turning in a ton of images. Um, a lot of times I just find for clients that, that gets them confused on what to pick. You're putting creative decisions in their hands. They, they didn't, they paid you to make those decisions. You pick the best one, you give them that. And it never fails. As a photographer, I've heard this everywhere and it happens to me daily. The photo you liked the least, that's the one they're gonna use every time. Every damn time. So the boat don't give them to, you know, you don't want to give them too much.

Chris Owens:        01:00:46       You want to give them what's good. Um, so yeah, I, that's the way I do it. Probably race day is between three, I'm guessing it's under 400, probably 300. Um, but, but we're doing, we're not doing any 500, but we're doing events and practice and qualification, time trials, all that kind of stuff. And in a road course race at the beginning of the month, we're doing that every day in May. So I mean by the end of the month, like I am in tune with this camera on one with this camera. Two years ago I got a little like rough, almost patch, like callous on the tip of my nose from hitting a camera, gets my face for a thousand pictures a day or whatever. Like I'm sorry to, to fight. Yeah, I ramble. What was your question? I'm sorry.

Raymond:            01:01:41       Uh, I mean really that was it. I was really trying to figure out how many images get added to the archive, so that makes sense. That makes sense. You know, really delivering the best work is, is still part of your job. You know, it's not, it's not just taking the photos, but it's delivering the best photos. I would imagine that having to, uh, deliver photos quick for the rest of the world too, to see that there's next to no editing being done to the image itself. Right.

Chris Owens:        01:02:12       We're, you're just, we're moving quick. I'm moving quick, man. I'm getting him in there. And um, you, if it's a slow day, not a race day, I have time where I play with them and I, you know, I do a little manipulation. Um, I just, I don't, I don't do super heavy manipulation. Part of that is because I'm trying to make editorial images that are used, you know, and in magazines and on web stories and really the world is lightened up. Believe it or not. I mean, not your big publications, but for standard editorial news, they'll use an image that's a doctored a little bit, um, or as we like to call it cooked, because sometimes, sometimes you see somebody over at, it's an image, it's, their colors are messed up. It's a little crispy, too much clarity. They cooked it.

Raymond:            01:03:01       That's not who won the race.

Chris Owens:        01:03:05       We work in a coal mine, there's charcoal all over this guy.

Raymond:            01:03:09       So, uh, having, having, uh, captured all of these images and then, you know, submitting them, um, you're essentially not a freelance photographer. Are you allowed to use these images for your own personal use?

Chris Owens:        01:03:24       Yeah, so, you know, I, I'll use them on my website portfolio, which makes sense. That's as a photographer, that's how I make my, would make my living moving forward if I weren't to be with the speedway, would be showing what I'm capable of. I'm also, you know, social media. It's today, you know, that promotes the brand that promotes, um, the speedway and [inaudible] speedway in indycar series and all that. So, you know, obviously anything that you see that I post, it's always in a positive light. I don't have anything bad to say about the series of cars that the drivers, it's all just promotion of Indycar and I'm showing the way I see the world in car racing. So yeah, it's, I'm able to do that. Um, I don't, my images, I don't, I'm, they're not for sale. I can't sell them prince of them, you know, cause tactically when you work for a company, you know, or a client like this, they own their likeness and the, and um, that's what they're paying me for. So they're not my images to sell. But um,

Raymond:            01:04:25       trying to share that. I think now I could be totally wrong here, but for awhile I was really trying to get pizzas on the podcast who was Barack Obama's a photographer in the White House. Uh, it never came to fruition but I remember reading and doing my research somewhere that he doesn't own those. Like he can't use those photos for anything. And the question that I wanted to ask was cause like apparently those photos are government property and obviously he has a very popular Instagram account where he posts photos that he took. And I guess the way around it, again I could be totally wrong, is that he has to get those photos off of flicker and then post them almost like with a link because again, like he's not allowed to use any of these photos. I could be totally wrong. This could be totally made up, but I guess I was just trying to get more of an idea of,

Chris Owens:        01:05:14       I would believe it. Um, because, you know, I recently, um, had conversations with someone about the current White House photographer and how they had some images of themselves and just, I guess an interesting thing of how they were going to acquire those images to use them. And it sounded like it was, um, a process. It was a me, maybe it couldn't be done or process. And I've heard this kind of thing about military, um, photography as well that I, I don't know that you're really even technically allowed to keep those images you take for the military and government. I don't know how those images exist in the world and how those people get their hands on them. And maybe it's just literally they're stealing them. They're backing them up. That's what I would do. I don't know. You know?

Raymond:            01:05:56       All right. Yeah, I guess, again, I guess I just wanted some sort of insight as to, cause I've never had to deal with this as a sense of like photography,

Chris Owens:        01:06:04       you know, it really, it's basically, um, yeah that you own certain, you know, companies will do, we'll do it that way and it makes sense. It's, you know, you're, they're paying you, it's their property. You're creating the property, you're creating the creative, uh, you're creating their creative likeness and that's what they pay you for. So yeah, I, I don't, um, own those images. I would actually, I'd have to look into that. I mean, I'm sure there's a photo lawyer out there somewhere that could tell you, uh, how many years, you know, those copyrights last,

Raymond:            01:06:37       I think it's a hundred. Again, I could be wrong, but, okay,

Chris Owens:        01:06:39       man, I'm not going to live that long. That's disappointing.

Raymond:            01:06:42       Yeah, I think, I think that's what it is for a, for music, for music to become royalty free. I think it's a hundred years, so, and a hundred years we're going to have some really interesting youtube videos for sure. But yeah. So we're kind of winding down here. I've got a few last questions for Ya. Uh, you've, you've been super gracious with your time. Um, I, I want to know what is something that you think most people don't realize about shooting an event? Like the, like the Indianapolis 500.

Chris Owens:        01:07:09       Hmm, that's a great question. Um, you know, I think the thing I, that I find a lot with photographers is I'm probably this slow generic, but it on the racing side of it, catching the cars, you know, people see these awesome images that, um, my teammates and myself make. And I think a photographer, a good photographer, like a good photographer thinks I can go out there and do that. Some of it you can, but some of it's like, I'm not really great at and I've been working at it for years. So you have an example. Um, you know, I would say more of the, the, the blurry stuff to creative pans. You see, if you see these cool pictures of race cars and um, you know, there's Buller everywhere in these neat colors coming off the side of the wall or because a fence is in the way or whatever, you know, a good photographer can go out and get that stuff and you, and they still would come back with a big, big blurry messages.

Chris Owens:        01:08:17       It's a very, very thin line between making it blurry photo creative and a blurry photo, a scullery bad photo. So I would say that I find, and I, I say that because I've known a couple of photographers who have literally, um, done that. We've had come out and said, hey, you know, I want to try to help you for the day or whatever. And they kind of come back saying like, hey, that's way harder than I thought it was. Um, just because like I said, the fine line between a blurry creative photo and a, a blurry, blurry, bad crummy photo. It's a fine line. I'm trying to find it. I'm close to it. I don't know right where it is, but I can always tell which side of it on one. So, um, I would say that I think people, like you mentioned earlier, don't realize, um, sometimes the hours put in on and the commitment involved too.

Chris Owens:        01:09:10       Event like, like the 500 or, or any big event, you know, a horse race or anything like that you have to cover of being there at four or 5:00 AM before all the people flood in and the traffic is too full and you get stuck out on the highway, you know, stuff like that. Standing like you had mentioned, standing on your feet the entire day, staying alert, um, not getting bored, not losing focus. Um, and you know, every time you go to take a shot, just realizing that whatever obstacles or resistance you have inside you that's telling you, I'm too tired. I need a break. Um, this, I'll be fine with what I got already. Um, things like that. That's just resistance. And that's keeping you from having great portfolio images and it's keeping you from your next paycheck and your [inaudible] or even extending your hobby or one day creating your career in photography resistance. Just that's what people don't realize. There's a little, you know, there's a lot of resistance in and what I do get tired, get sore, get hungry, get bored. You know, you gotta it's a, there's a lot. Um, it's really gotta stay, you gotta stay on it for lack of a better.

Raymond:            01:10:30       So my last question for you was going to be, if you showed up tomorrow and you had a new assistant, which obviously you would know about because you would be the one in charge of finding them, but let's say you showed up for work tomorrow and there was a brand new assistant there for you, what is the one piece of advice that you would give them? But would it be that, would it be persistence?

Chris Owens:        01:10:48       I would, I would say yeah. You know, don't, to, to not raise, not resist. Whenever something great comes to you or when you get tired or whenever you start losing focus. I would also tell them I'm the greatest way, you know, to be at the top of this is, um, to be there, to be present, to volunteer, to raise your hand, to be the one to get up and go do something when it's needed by another photographer. I'm being helpful. I know that's so generic, but I feel that that was the way I got, you know, to the point where I'm at, you know, who can go shoot the sponsor event and the tent me did. I want to know. I know I hated it. I didn't want to do it, but I guess I just figured out that if you're helpful by being helpful is um,

Raymond:            01:11:41       okay.

Chris Owens:        01:11:41       The way is, it is a great reason for people to use you, you know, as generic as that sounds. Um, you got to, you got to pay your dues and photography. You have to, and I know a lot of photographers, you hear them say things like, oh, I've never worked for free, blah, blah, blah. If I wouldn't have worked for free, I would never be doing what I'm doing because I had no, I had no portfolio. You're not the greatest when you first start with your brand new digital camera. You have to have a reason to be good. And I'm the best I would tell this person is also to shoot, shoot, shoot. Because the, the way I feel that I got to be a good photographer is by always volunteering and doing all this stuff. So I'm always the ones shooting while everybody's sitting around.

Chris Owens:        01:12:25       So, you know, and I just, you figure things out. There's no school, there's no, there's nothing that can really, there's some small things that can help you, but nothing can teach you to be a better photographer. Nothing and no one than yourself by just going out and shooting and figuring it out. So I would say a lot of shooting, find what your interests are, you know, volunteer for if you're new, if you're literally, I mean, if you're a photographer, I'd get it. But if you're a new photographer, maybe you're not ready to be taking money from clients and people. But if you are working with people who are taking money from clients and our, I'm working professionals, you, you're getting to watch what they do, you're getting to learn from them and one day you're going to be in their shoes. It's not gonna be next month.

Chris Owens:        01:13:10       It's not going to be next year. It's not going to be the following. But you never know. You may few years, five years down the road, you might go, wow, I've been shooting a couple events or a couple of portrait sessions, volunteering for years. I got this. Now I know, I know all of the trials and tribulations of it. I've seen the problems, I've seen the pros, the cons, and I know how to get through it and get over it. Um, that's kind of what I feel about myself. You know, I've, I've learned a lot in what I've done from, from others and I can take that to do whatever I ended up doing eventually, you know, whether it's your shooting car racing forever or doing anything else. So, um, I would just say, shoot, you've got to shoot a lot and you got to volunteer to shoot.

Raymond:            01:13:58       It all comes back to persistence. Yeah. That's incredible. That was, that was like a roadmap for, no pun intended, but that was like a roadmap to, to like getting where you want to get to. Like from the beginning. That was wonderful.

Raymond:            01:14:13       Yeah.

Chris Owens:        01:14:13       You just got to pay your dues. Yeah. Try things out, get your, get your friend, go take pictures, your friends, go do portraits of your friends. Go and ask a wedding photographer if you can tag along there, your images are a bonus, you know, you won't get in the way.

Raymond:            01:14:25       Right, right. Yeah. I've, I've told people the exact same thing. If you're just getting started, why not shoot for free. And I think that that, that gets lost. So I'm glad. I'm glad that you shared that. Thank you Chris. I, oh my gosh, I've kept you for so long and I apologize again. You've been so gracious with your time and sharing the seemingly everything that there was to ask about shooting. Um, before I let you go, can you let the listeners know where they can find, uh, some of your work and follow you online?

Chris Owens:        01:14:58       Sure, absolutely. Um, so my personal webpage is, uh, Chris Alan's photography.com. It's that easy. Uh, Chris Owens, photography.com and on there, um, you see everything from car racing, highlights to, um, street photography, which is kind of my, you know, that's my other passion other than shooting car racing is just street art. It's a lot of that on there. I do stories from music festivals or from concerts or from car races on the blog section on there. So, um, that's something that gets updated pretty often, uh, or something new rolling on there. I'm also on Instagram is where I'm most active, and that one is also super simple. It's just my name at Chris Owens. So that one, uh, lucky enough to have that handle. That's an easy one. Um, then from there, obviously if you're interested in, you know, solely car racing photography, indycar.com, which is the sanctioning body that hosts all their cars that race in any 500. Um, so indycar.com is a great gallery from uh, me and even more great creative stuff from all of uh, my teammates, all the awesome indycar photographers who inspire me and, and hopefully I inspire them to, so there's, there's great stuff from all of us on there.

Raymond:            01:16:15       Awesome. I know that there's going to be a lot of listeners checking out your work and, uh, just interested in something new. You know what I mean? It's all about hearing new, fresh perspectives. And this is something that I have never done in the podcast is Kinda talk about the logistics of a singular event like this. And I learned a ton. So again from me and from the listener. I thank you so much for, for coming on, Chris.

Chris Owens:        01:16:37       Yeah, thanks Raymond. Thanks for having me.

Raymond:            01:16:40       Oh, I will tell you what my biggest takeaway from this interview with Chris was just simply how much pressure he must feel, how much pressure is on, to not only cover an event this size. I mean, you heard how big the Indianapolis Motor speedway is. It is massive. So, not only to cover an event of this size, but manage a team of so many other photographers to cover the event as well. And, and actually how much of the photography side is not glamorous, not being in the winner's circle, you know, not capturing that, that iconic note shot, not capturing those national news worthy moments, but things like trash cans, it's all linked and it is all important. And that is what I got a lot out of this interview with Chris and it reminded me that sometimes when I'm in a wedding, um, and I asked myself, I'm wondering why am I, why am I photographing the table settings?

Raymond:            01:17:44       Who cares what a plate and some silverware and uh, you know, dinner glass, like who cares what this stuff looks like? These photos don't go in the album. These photos, you know, don't get printed. Nobody hangs this photo on their wall. And I asked, why am I shooting this? But thinking about this interview with Chris, you realize it's all connected. It is all connected. And those photos, while you know they will be important to somebody and if not now, they will for sure be important to somebody in the future. So Chris, if you're listening, thank you so much for coming on. I had a blast speaking with you and I look forward to, uh, catching up here soon as well. So that is it for this week. Um, this week's interview here on the beginner photography podcast. Until next week, I want you to get out, keep shooting, focus on yourself and stay safe. All right, love y'all.

Outtro:             01:18:41       If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.

BPP 158: How a Rubix Cube made Me a Better Photographer

In todays episode of the Beginner Photography Podcast I share how a rubix cube made me a better photographer and how you can take the lessons I learned and apply them to your own photography journey!

Interested in enrolling in Auto to Amazing? Click the link below to enroll now!

https://learn.beginnerphotographypodcast.com/p/auto-to-amazing

Here are some of my bad photos that I thought just because I was shooting in manual, they had to be great. As you can see, they were far from great!

My biggest problem here was that I was not getting any feedback. I was not opening the door to the possibility that others could share their thoughts that would help me grow.

Here is me solving a rubix cube.

Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

Full Episode Transcription:

Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.

Raymond: 00:00 Hey Raymond here from the beginner of photography podcast. And today I'm going to share how a Rubik's cube helped make me a better photographer, the lessons that I learned and how you can become a better photographer too. So let's get into it.

Intro: 00:16 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfields, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raman interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now with you as always, husband, father, home brewer, La Dodger Fan and Indianapolis wedding photographer, Raymond Hatfield. Welcome

Raymond: 00:46 back to today's episode of the beginning photography podcast. As always, I am Raymond Hatfield and I am an Indianapolis wedding photographer and a your guide for this journey that I'm going to take you along today. Uh, I'm really happy that you are here and I hope that you can learn something from today's episode. And if you do, I would be so appreciative if you would share this episode with, uh, with somebody who, you know, who could use a listen. So last a few weeks, a few weeks ago, uh, my mom, uh, came out here to Indiana to go with us on a family vacation, uh, down to holiday world, Indiana. Uh, I know it's, uh, Santa Claus, Indiana, which is the home of holiday world. Now. Holiday world is like this themed, uh, it's like a holiday themed amusement park and like, uh, um, like water parks. So it's a lot of fun for the kids.

Raymond: 01:47 We, we love to go. Um, and it's a wonderful time. And my mom and I spent a lot of time talking, just kind of sharing a stories about the past and, uh, w we would, we would, what my mom liked to do was compare, uh, our son Charlie, who is six years old to me at his age. So that of course got us talking about, uh, just me as a child and the things that I did, and I was sharing what was frustrating as a parent and she was, you know, commiserating and saying, I was there too, and you were the exact same way. And, uh, you know, just, just kid things. And, and the more that we got to talk about it, um, I was thinking a lot about my own childhood and how I perceived things. Um, and, and I realized, you know, sometimes when you take a look back you think about how much things have changed, how much things have grown.

Raymond: 02:45 Um, and in this case I was thinking about, uh, how I learned as a kid and I thought this was really interesting as a kid. I was the, I was the kid who was, you know, interested in absolutely everything. And I mean, I was interested in everything to a fault. Like it would get me in trouble. I was interested in so many things and I think I was interested in

everything because what I really wanted was to find the one thing that I was just naturally good at. And as I started thinking about this and, uh, really diving in deeper, I remembered, uh, when I was, I dunno, maybe six or no, I guess I was a little bit older, but I was younger than 10 for sure. I was, I was a young child still in elementary school for sure. Probably first or second grade.

Raymond: 03:42 And I remember, um, my parents were watching 60 minutes and they were highlighting on 60 minutes a young piano prodigy. This kid was, and he, he was probably four or something. He was very, very young. He was younger than I was. And, uh, the parents of this kid had no idea that he was good at piano. They didn't like put them in piano lessons or anything. They were just at a friend's house and the friends had a piano. So the kid sat down and they realized that he could, you know, pick things up just by, just by hearing it and he could, um, mimic, mimic it, uh, back on the piano almost immediately. This kid had a real ear for it. And again, he was really, really, really young, probably four, but they kept calling this kid, you know, natural. I kept saying, oh, he's such a natural, this is amazing.

Raymond: 04:36 He's natural. He's naturally great at piano. And it almost seemed as though they were playing down how extraordinary it was that I, four year old was playing pieces on the piano that season. Pros struggled with. And looking back, maybe they didn't, maybe they weren't playing that down, but as a kid, all that I picked up on was that how this kid was a natural, he was naturally good at playing the piano. He found what he was naturally good at and it was completely by accident. So I think that is where my hunt started and kind of where this, where this episode is going. Uh, I thought to myself, if this kid just naturally found something that he was good at, there has to be something that I am naturally good at. So if I look for more things, if I do more things, I'll eventually find it.

Raymond: 05:36 Right. So, I mean, I remember very quickly getting into a lot of things. Uh, I remember I had a magicians kit. Uh, imagine me as a magician. Jake's, um, pastels. I mean more than just like, you know, pen or pencil and paper. Like I went straight to pastels. Uh, I took ceramics lessons. Uh, I was into rollerblading, like BMX bikes, adject tennis lessons. Uh, I had a compass and a camelback for hiking. You know, there's 10 year old kid who's just going to go off and hike on his own. And then also I had, uh, a Rubik's cube. I mean, I was just all over the board with things that I was quote unquote interested in. Uh, and really I wasn't interested in any of them. I think I just really wanted to find the thing that I was good at. But the problem came when I gave something a try.

Raymond: 06:36 And I'm sure as you have experienced in your own life, I was not world-class the first time I tried anything. You know, and looking back as an adult, it's easy to see why this, why this young child was, was being, uh, featured so young as a piano player. It wasn't because he was naturally good at something. It was because it was extraordinary that he was naturally good at this. But regardless, that caused me a lot of frustration. It caused me to be really frustrated and side. And then I would give up immediately on everything if I wasn't great, I thought, nope, this isn't it. Onto the next thing, man. Now that I think about it, I had a, I had a hacky sack as well. Again, I was probably like eight, maybe 10. I tried for a long time to, to, to be real good at that.

Raymond: 07:35 Just cause you know, all the kids at school were, we're really good anyway. Uh, but the one thing that that really stood out to me was, was that Rubik's cube, because when it came to pastels, when it came to, um, you know, a magicians kit, when it came to ceramics, you figured out pretty quick, you know, that you weren't world-class. You figured out pretty, I mean right away that, that this is something that you're not naturally good at. Right. But the Rubik's cube was what always intrigued me the most because, um, you, you felt like you never knew how close you might be. Like it was just one more twist or one more turn and then things would just come together. And I mean, I tried to solve that thing for weeks.

I tried to solve that cube for weeks. And I'm not sure if you've ever tried to solve a Rubik's cube, but at times it feels impossible.

Raymond: 08:34 It feels like you are just wasting your time. Like this is just an impossible task. It doesn't make any sense. And I would twist and turn and rotate that cube four hours and somehow no progress ever got done. I never got any closer to solving it, no matter how many times I twisted it, turned it and rotate it. So I just, I just ended up throwing it in the drawer because you know, it was, it was pointless to me. I wasn't naturally good at it. And then in that drawer is where it sat for six or seven years, you know, except for several or a few, you know, days at a time where I would give it another try before realizing, oh, pointless. You know, maybe a friend would come over and they'd be looking through my stuff and they would find the cube and, and we joke around and we'd play with it for a little, but ultimately it would always end up back in that drawer for six or seven years.

Raymond: 09:32 That was, it's home. So then fast forward six or seven years, it, it had come time for me to move to La to attend film school. And as I was packing up the things in my room, I got to the Rubik's cube. At first I hesitated, but ultimately I, I decided to bring it with me and I remember, um, one night, uh, it was probably eight months or so later, um, I was way, I was in way over my head at school. I was in the middle of this huge project that I was not prepared for. I was getting less than four hours of sleep at night. You know, it was, it was a rough time for me in school. I think one night I just felt kind of, you know, done like I needed, I needed a break and I was sitting there in my room and of the cube.

Raymond: 10:36 It always stayed on my desk. It always stayed on my desk. Well, you know, I didn't mean that I would always play with it, but I'd always stayed down at my desk. So as I'm sitting there in my chair, just wallowing in self pity essentially. Um, I saw the cube and I just picked it up and I started just mindlessly spinning it. And at this point you may be thinking how in the world business relate to photography, but if you're still listening and you haven't, you know, tuned out, stick with me. I'm getting there. So as I was sitting there and just mindlessly spinning this Rubik's cube, my roommate Ben had walked by my room and, and he, he peered in and we were talking for a few minutes and he saw me messing around with the cube and right then and there he, I remember, I remember this so well, he bet me $10 that I wouldn't be able to solve it by the same time the next day. Now what I should have done was just laugh it off and go to sleep.

Raymond: 11:38 But what I did instead was take him up on his offer. Now you may be thinking right now you may be asking, why would you do that Raymond? Why did I think after seven years of to figure it out with, I mean no luck that I would be able to do so in the next 24 hours. And to be completely honest, it beats me. I have no idea why. But regardless, I got to work and to everyone's surprise, including me, 24 hours I handed and my roommate a complete solved Rubik's cube. So how did I do it? I didn't take it apart and reassemble it in the right order. I didn't take off the stickers. I legit solved it. I did it the right way. Just do twists and turns. And the way that I did it was simple. It was so simple. Are you ready?

Raymond: 12:41 I googled how to solve a Rubik's cube. That was it. That was all that I did. Now, you may not know this if you've never solved the Rubik's cube, but you can solve any cube, no matter how many you know, jumbled twists and turns. It has in just four simple steps, four simple steps. You don't need to have a phd in math to solve a Rubik's cube. And I thought, in fact, fun, fun little tip, the instructions are included in every Rubik's cube that you buy. So if you wanna learn how to solve a Rubik's cube, you can just go to the store by Rubik's cube and the instructions are inside. But I thought why? Why had I never even looked it up? Why had I never even decided to take the first logical step, which was figuring out how this thing worked? It was because I assumed that you needed to have a natural rain man type talent to solve a the cube.

Raymond: 13:45 So I never looked any further and that's how it had been my entire life. Like I said, if I would try something and it wasn't the right thing right away, if it didn't naturally click with me, I would just simply move on to the next thing and right then, right then when I solved the cube, I realized I had made two huge mistakes that really hindered growth. That really hindered my growth to learn new things my entire life. Now this is where photography comes in. All right, so mistake number one was assuming, assuming simply having the assumption that others are just naturally good at things and if I'm not good at something right away after the first try, then just to stop looking altogether. Just stop. Don't go any further. If you're not naturally good at it, don't waste your, you have to be naturally good at something.

Raymond: 14:53 So go out and find that thing. Don't try to get better by practice. Just stop. That was mistake number one and mistake number two was just trying to figure it all out myself. I mean clearly the seven years of trying on my own and not completing the cube, well, it didn't work. It didn't work. It irrefutable, it did not work, but it took me reaching out to those who had completed a cube before to help. In the moment that I did that, I learned how to solve a cube within 24 hours consistently. Like this wasn't like a onetime thing. Like, Hey, I solved it. Please don't ask me to do it again. Like I'm not doing double or nothing. I mean still to this day, 11 years later, I can solve a cube, no problem in under two minutes. I promise you. It's awesome. It's fun.

Raymond: 15:58 So those were the two lessons I learned, right? Assuming and then trying to figure it out on my own. And I've found this to be the case, um, for everything. If you, if you reach out and you get that help, you will be able to figure out things so much faster than you would if you just went out on your own. And again, I found this to be the case for everything from building a fence, uh, losing weight and especially in photography. And I, you know, I don't want to say that I know how you feel cause I don't, I'm not you, but I can say that I am an introvert. I hate to inconvenience people. It is one of my, it scares me to death, to inconvenient inconvenience people. I hate to ask people for things. I hate to, uh, put people in a position, um, where they have to go out of their way and help me.

Raymond: 17:02 I like being able to solve things on my own. I like that idea of being able to bootstrap and you know, just do it, put in the work and you will be able to do it. But the truth is so many things in life just simply don't work that way. I think personally that includes photography. So I have always been the lone wolf and I just simply tried to do everything myself, but I learned in that 24 hours that that is just simply not possible if you want to do anything. Great. So from then on I felt right away as if nothing was impossible as long as you know how the tool works, all I had to do was figure out how does a cube work and then once I figured that out I could solve it. This is also how photography works. Some days when I would rather just stay in the comfort of my own home, I think of, I figured the line from a go your own way by Fleetwood Mac, which is one of the best songs of all time and the line is open up.

Raymond: 18:30 Everything's waiting for you. It takes courage to open up, but once you do, everything is waiting for you to take. If you open up, every opportunity is waiting for you. Everything is waiting for you. So believe it or not, you know, no one is born with a natural talent to take incredible photos. That four year old kid who played piano, look, he's an anomaly. Obviously. That's why he was being, you know, featured. But nobody's born with a natural talent to take incredible photos because it requires the use of a tool. But most people believe that they have to either get lucky or spend years of trying different things. In order to be good at something, you have to know how the tool works to make something with it. And that is vital to reaching your goal. Now, luckily, if you're listening, you can tackle mistake number one by yourself assumption.

Raymond: 19:42 It just takes time. But yeah, you know you can, you can do that all on your own. Just stop assuming. Stop assuming. And you tackled number one, you're halfway there. But mistake number two needs outside help. There's, there's, there's simply no way around it and that's why I've spent so much time to incorporate community. Even in my newest course audit to amazing learning will only take you halfway because you will inevitably have questions at some point and that's where a Facebook group comes in. Having the ability to share photos, to get feedback, to ask for help whenever you need it in a safe environment is one of the most powerful tools to growing as a photographer. I mean for years I was taking photos in manual mind you thinking that I was just creating works of art because I was telling my camera what to do, but the truth be told, those photos are they're not good.

Raymond: 20:46 They're not, they're not art. They were borderline trash and if you want to see an example, I posted them in the show notes. If you're listening in apple podcast, a swipe up, you should be able to see the photos. They're not, not that great. Not that great. But once I joined an online community, once I started sharing my photos, once I started to get feedback from others, that is what really took me, that that is what it took for me to really feel like I understood photography. And that's everything. That is everything. And for that reason, and for that reason alone, my course audit to amazing has been kind of built around the Facebook group setting. Now you can learn more about other two amazing by simply heading over to learn dot beginner photography, podcast.com and to make the whole thing more fun. Everyone who enrolls in the course by July 31st will be entered into a raffle where I'm giving away $1,365 worth of photography prizes, prizes like a cannon nifty 50 backup hard drive memory cards of one year pro plan to cloud spot online, uh, uh, online galleries, which is more than a $400 value alone.

Raymond: 22:08 And I'm also giving away copies of Mark Silber's new book, create tools for seriously talented people to unleash your creative life and many more prizes. There are 25 prizes, uh, in all and everybody who enrolls in the course will be entered to win. And now enrollment, uh, in auto two amazing closes in just a few days. If you're listening to this, the day that it goes out, enrollment closes July 31st. So if you want to enroll, just head over to learn that beginning photography podcast.com and you will see auto two amazing right there. So whether you're like Gwyn or listener who finds most benefit from going to in-person photography meetups, or maybe you're more like me and like the comfort of online groups, whatever is right for you, you need some way to, you need, you need to find some way to share your work in a way that allows for feedback. Don't go asking for feedback right away, but you need to find a safe place where you can accept feedback. Now you can go to meetup.com which is not a dating site, I promise. And you can probably find 30 photography meetup groups within your community. So if you need one last shot of encouragement to join an online community and get that help, get that feedback and grow as photographers together. Here you go.

Raymond: 23:43 You know what will happen if you go, you know what will happen if you don't join a community, nothing. Nothing will happen. You will stay exactly the same, but you don't know what will happen if you do go. If you do join that community, if you do reach out to that photographer, I mean, you could meet your next best friend. You could be opened up to a new form of photography. You could meet somebody who will let you tag along with them, uh, to a shoot. You know what will happen if you don't go, but you don't know what will happen if you do go be open. Everything's waiting for you. See what I did there? I tied back in that Fleetwood Mac reference. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, that is it for this week. I hope that this episode helped change your mindset in some way. I hope that if you were stuck feeling as if photography was hard, as if it was complicated, as if you weren't naturally good at it. So why do we even continue to try? I hope that I changed your mind. I hope that I showed you that

there is another way and that if you continue to push, you will make it because this takes practice.

Raymond: 25:13 So that is it for this week. If you want to see a video of me solving Rubik's Cube, head over to the show notes and a, there's a video right there, uh, that you can check out. So that is it for this week. Until next week, I want you to get out. I want you to keep shooting. I want you to focus on yourself and I want you to be safe. All right, that's it. I love you all.

Outtro: 25:37 If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.

BPP 157: Marc Silber - Tools from Seriously Talented People to Unleash Your Creative Life

Marc Silber is a best selling author, photographer, filmmaker, and producer of the very popular Youtube series Advancing Your Photography, where he has interviewed scores of some of the biggest names in photography. 

He started out learning darkroom skills and the basics of photography at the legendary Peninsula School in Menlo Park, CA, in the '60s, and moved on to hone his skills to professional standards at the famed San Francisco Art Institute. Marc moved into teaching photography in workshops all over the country, he became renowned as an engaging and helpful speaker and coach, as his greatest joy comes from helping others. 

He loves adventure and you'll find him out backpacking surfing or snowboarding, or maybe just chilling, taking a walk through Carmel with his wife and Golden Retriever. 

Enrollment is open for Auto to Amazing until July 31st! Click here to learn more!

In This Episode You'll Learn:

• How Marc got started in photography

• Where Marc got the idea for his new book Create

• What surprised Marc most when interviewing non photographers about creativity

• Common misconceptions people have about creativity and where it comes from

• Key tools Marc learned from seriously talented people

• Simple ways we can increase our creativity

• When a piece stops being a photograph and becomes art

• The most actionable takeaway Marc has for photographers who read his book.

Resources:

• Buy Marc Silber’s Book Create: Tools from Seriously Talented People to Unleash Your Creative Life

• Marc Silber on Youtube

• Marc Silber on Facebook

• Marc Silber on Instagram
  

Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

Full Interview Transcription:

Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.

Raymond: 00:00:00 Hey Raymond here from the beginning of photography podcast and today we are learning about tools from seriously talented people to unleash your creative life. So let's get into it.

Intro: 00:00:13 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfields, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raymon interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now with you as always, husband, father, Ho brewer, La Dodger Fan and Indianapolis wedding photographer Raymond Hatfield. Welcome to the [inaudible].

Raymond: 00:00:42 This week's interview, as always, I am Raymond Hatfield, your host and Indianapolis wedding photographer. This has been a a quite a week here in the Midwest. It has been extremely hot. There's been a lot of times spent in doors and when you have kids who kind of have to stay indoors because it's, it's almost unbearably hot outside at the, you really don't get a lot done throughout the week. I've realized a, so I am ready for to cool down for sure, but I know that this has affected like I think they said 220 million Americans. This, this heat wave that we got going on. So, uh, if you're out there and you're listening, um, you know, I'm with you. I'm with you here today. So hopefully soon it'll cool down and, uh, it'll be a lot more comfortable. But this week, this week, I am, I'm, I'm very excited, uh, because I have the pleasure of speaking with past guest who's been on the show twice before mark Silber about his brand new book called create tools from seriously talented people to unleash your creative lifestyle.

Raymond: 00:01:47 So this book, um, is, is mark interviews a lot of people who aren't just photographers. That's mainly what Marka focuses on himself, but, and all of his past books, in fact, he has a youtube channel called advancing your photography. But in this book he talks to CEOs, uh, motorcycle instructors, uh, just a ton of people who aren't maybe what you would think traditional creatives. Um, and then he kind of breaks down their creative, how they've created a very, how they've created, know how they created a very creative life. And, uh, it's just a wonderful, wonderful interview. And talking with mark. I always know what's going to be a fantastic interview, just loaded with great tips and takeaways. And his book is exactly the same. So I actually got an advanced copy of his book and I can tell you that if you like the style of this podcast, which is a lot less technical than a lot of other photography podcast and more about the why and how, then you're going to love his new book.

Raymond: 00:02:51 So if you're interested, you can get a on Amazon, his new book starting tomorrow, July 23rd. Um, or you can just swipe up on the podcast player and check out the show notes. I will have a link to where you can buy the book now, but if you want to win a copy of Mark's new book, I have some great news for you today. I am opening very limited enrollment to my new online video course, Auto to amazing. Now you're thinking, I've heard you talk about this before, so you may be may remember that actually launched through this course last month to a group of Beta students. And I'm not going to lie. It was a whole lot harder than I expected. Um, and there were some, there were some rough spots within the course that I didn't see at first. But with the help of all of the Beta students we worked together, I took their suggestions, I added additional trainings, modified the format.

Raymond: 00:03:58 And I'm pleased to say that this course is better than ever. So in order to amazing, I promise that you will learn how to shoot manual in 30 days or less guaranteed. This is the fastest way to learn photography. The course is broken up into four weekly modules that are prerecorded so you can actually watch them whenever is convenient for you. So in week one we cover exposure and this is where we learn how to know what settings to change and when. And this is where we get into shooting manual. Week two we cover composition and how you can immediately improve the quality of your photos just by changing where you point your camera. Week three is all about light, different types of light and I'll show you how to see light. So you always keep your subject looking great. And then in week four we kind of wrap it up by bringing it all together in a series of exercises designed to solidify your understanding of photography and how to shoot in multiple situations.

Raymond: 00:05:00 So each week, some module we'll end with a simple practice exercise that focuses on that week's topics. So in the first week, which is all about exposure, I challenge you to get out and actually take your first photo in manual. So this course is not for somebody who is already comfortable with manual or or feels like they have a good grasp that they need to get to the next level. This is for those of you who are starting from zero, are shooting in auto and are ready to finally take control of your camera. And you know, take the photos that you've seen in your head and not the photos that your, that your camera sees. So after each week's a simple exercise, then we take those photos and you can come into the private auto two amazing Facebook group, share your photos, get feedback and ask questions to get you learning even quicker.

Raymond: 00:05:53 And I'm so confident that you will learn how to shoot manual in 30 days or less. But if you complete the course and you do not feel like you've learned to manual, I will give you double your money back. I'm serious. That is how confident I am in this course. If you follow it, you will learn manual. So enrollment is open today and closes on July 31st so that we can start training the next day, August 1st so August is going to be probably one of the most transformative months of your entire life. If you, if you sign up for the course as it is the month that you will learn photography. So to enroll in order to amazing, you can do so right now by hitting over to learn that beginner photography, podcast.com again, that is learn l e a r n. Dot. Beginner photography, podcast.com and I have a huge bonus also that I know you will love.

Raymond: 00:06:56 Students of Auto to Amazing. Will get access to four live Q and A's from past guests who are professional photographers. Yes, this will happen within the Facebook group. I'm talking photographers like Andrew Helmets who is also the host of the beginning of, I'm sorry, on the host of the beginning of photography podcasts Andrew Helmitch is the host of the photobiz exposed podcast. He has decades of experience and he is going to share how to best prepare for your first page shoot. We're going to have nick church in there to answer your questions, who went from zero to full time in 24 months and we'll share what you actually need to learn and what is completely, you know what is not necessary, so what you should be focusing on to get you to learn as fast as possible. There's also going to be Matt

Payne, who's a landscape photographer and he's going to walk you through how he finds locations and how he prepares for his incredible landscape photos.

Raymond: 00:07:57 So this is your opportunity. There's also one more photographer who I can't share yet because they're still confirming whether or not they will be able to commit. But I'm extremely excited. So this will be your chance if you enroll in order to amazing and become a student. This will be your chance to ask your questions, your personalized questions, questions that maybe don't apply to other people or, or you know, because of based on where you live or the gear that you have to ask your questions to these professional photographers. Oh, alive. I'm so excited about this. So again, this is only available to students of Auto to Amazing. But the bonuses aren't over. Yes. If you enroll in auto two, amazing before July 31st I guess. Yeah, by July 31st you are also going to be entered to win one of 25 different prizes totaling $1,365 I'm serious, $1,365 worth of prizes.

Raymond: 00:09:03 I am giving away prizes like today's guest, Mark Silber's brand new book, create tools from seriously talented people to unleash your creative life. So for a list of prizes and to enroll in audit too. Amazing. Just head over once again to learn that beginner photography, podcast.com that is a learn l e a r n dot beginner photography podcast.com right now. I really hope that you can tell how excited I am about this course. So much work went into it and I truly want to see each and every one of you succeed in wherever you want to go with photography. So again, if you want to enroll in audit too. Amazing. Just head over to learn dot beginning photography, podcast.com. Okay. That is it for now. How about we get on into this week's interview with Mark Silber?

Raymond: 00:10:04 Today's returned guest is a listener favorite. Today's a photographer and creative Mark Silber is back to talk all about the process of how to become creative, which a he has documented in his brand new book, create tools from seriously talented people to unleash your creative life. Mark, welcome back to the podcast. Raymond, happy to be here. As always, a pleasure. It's always nice to see a familiar face. It's fun. I feel like it is, we just have these a, it's like every time you come out with a new book, we get to another face to face. And a, I just want to let you know that I truly enjoy these, uh, these meetings and I know that the listeners do as well. So I know that this is going to be a great interview. Fantastic. Yeah. So, uh, I want to, I know that you've been, this is now your third time on the podcast. You weren't on back in episode 65 and episode 97. So for anybody who's listening, go back and listen to those because, uh, they're just, they're just wonderful. Um, little, uh, little bits of insight into Mark's life and, uh, um, I'm excited for today's episode, but for those who haven't, uh, maybe those who are new to the podcast, the podcast has grown quite a bit in the past year. Can you remind us how you got, uh, to, to where you are today?

Mark Silber: Raymond:

00:11:19 00:11:26

Wow, okay. There's a lot with a very simple question. Well,

Mark Silber:
definite point where I became a photographer. Um, here's the before point. I was shooting with a Brownie camera, taking the rolls of film to a drugstore and getting back, very disappointing prints that were muddy, small, very uncreative. And I, uh, really never felt like a photographer. One day my teacher in the seventh grade said, hey, uh, I have a dark room. Would you like to see how it works? And I thought, yeah, that would be cool. So we developed the roll film and that was the first point of magic. You know, you, you, you put the film in, you shake the can around and you come out with a roll of film. But the real magic occurred when we put it into the enlarger and all of a sudden, instead of these mighty tiny little prints, they might've been five by sevens, maybe even an eight by 10. And all of a sudden we could, uh, adjust the contrast. We

00:11:26

you know, I started as a photographer at age 12 before there's a

could crop. We did all these magical things. That's when I became a photographer age. Well, in fact, in my new book and previous books, I, I have photographs from that time period.

Raymond: 00:12:38 You know, it's funny because, uh, I've seen those photos in the past and I didn't know the story behind them until I read your newest book and some of your photos that I saw that you took on your trip down in Mexico just blew me away. And at the time you were still like a child, you know what I mean? Like you're still very young and developing, and yet these photos that you were producing were, uh, uh, were wonderful. The technical skill that was required to take those photos was a fantastic

Mark Silber: 00:13:05 thank you. You know, they even surprise me because not even, well, you know, I was 17 years old and even PR, yes, I had the technical skills down already by them. But really I can see that I put these people at ease because when you go to, especially a third world country, a lot of times you just get these very stiff poses as soon as you pull out a camera or worse. I've had people shake sticks at me for, oh wow. Oh yeah, come right after me with a stick. But you know, because there, there's a feeling that you're going to capture their soul. Right. And to some degree we do that as photographers. We hopefully don't do it in a negative way, but there's, there is that feeling of uncomfortability that you have to break through. And that's, I see that in my photographs, I was kind of amazed that I, at that age even, I was able to chill these people out enough to, for me to take a photograph that had some meaning to it rather than it just, you know, stiff pose like this.

Raymond: 00:14:05 Yeah. Well, I don't want to give away a too much of the story that, uh, that you shared there in the book, but I would imagine being able to get out of your high school and go to this brand new location must have, uh, uh, just kind of put you in this new mindset. And I think what a brain, oh, I bet. I bet that's, I bet that's exactly what it was. And that is, uh, that's a great chair. So I, I apologize for cutting you off there halfway to, but uh, so you started very young. Uh, and then where did it go from there?

Mark Silber: 00:14:31 Well, I, you know, kept honing my own skills, uh, largely self- taught as a photographer. I did go to the San Francisco Art Institute, um, which, you know, the main thing, the takeaway from that was all of a sudden I was into the world of other photographers because before that it was kind of just me and my own little universe showing my work. And now I'm in a more competitive situation. You know, you're dealing with a lot of other really good photographers you're getting critiqued in that started to sort of prove me up to what it was like to be a professional photographer. And from there I just kept my own learning process. I actually went in and I talk about this in the book. I went into to a completely different direction and came back to photography, uh, in the early two thousands when digital was just starting to become something that you could actually employ as a tool rather than a kind of a toy.

Mark Silber: 00:15:29 A, I, my first camera was 3.5 megapixels, you know, so, you know, it wasn't a very serious camera, but then in 2005, I really jumped into the digital world and so had to really train myself all over again. Yeah. And then from there I learned video and became a videographer and a video producer. So I just kept going on that same path and that's how I ended up doing my youtube show of, you know, the many, many photographers I interviewed over the years, which I'm still doing. Yeah. My books have grown out of that, of those conversations to a large extent.

Raymond: 00:16:06 Yeah. You know, it's a, it's funny, that's kind of where it, right. Where I was going with, uh, with my next question here is that like, you are a photographer, like that's where w where it all started for you, this kind of journey of creativity. But in your book you don't exclusively interview other photographers, which I enjoyed a ton to be able to hear

everybody else's take on, on creativity. I want to know. Um, well, I guess first can you tell me a little bit about the book and then where did you come up with the idea for the book?

Mark Silber: 00:16:38 Okay. Uh, I'm not even sure where I came up with the idea of, uh, you know, it just sort of bubbled up. Uh, I believe it was, you know, for me it was the whole transition from, okay, I feel like I've talked about photography enough at this point. I want to talk about the bigger picture, uh, of creativity because really a photograph is, is a way of communicating. It's one means of communicating what you feel or what you see, but there's a lot of other ways to do that. And I'm kind of involved in many different forms of creativity, uh, aside from photography. So I just decided to tackle this subject Kinda head on. My process at this point is to take the subject and take it apart as best I can. But then to augment that, my own learning process and what I've come across with interviews from other people that I admire in one way or another.

Mark Silber: 00:17:34 And that's basically this the same approach I had with this book. So I decided, you know, the book is an interesting thing. It kind of develops as you go. Yeah, you should, you know, you should put an outline together and you should try to follow that as best you can. But it's a big work in progress and I can imagine. Yeah. You know, it's, it develops as you go. And, um, part way through. I decided wouldn't it be cool cause I knew I was going to do some interviews but I thought wouldn't it be cool to get a variety, a wide variety of different creatives so that I wasn't just talking to photographers, I was talking to musicians and um, digital other digital artists and even a friend of mine who's a serious motorcycle racer, you know, these are all different forms of creativity. And I thought it would be interesting to see what the commonality was. So that was my premise and it paid out. You know, we did find certain common denominators, certain things they had to overcome that were very similar from person to person. And, um, to me it was a delight. Every time I did one of these interviews, I was learning something to, yeah, which has always been the case for me. I'm going to take a little sip here.

Raymond: 00:18:49 I love that because that's always been kind of like the thesis of this podcast. You know, I, you know, you can only learn, um, so much from like actually doing something, you know, and you can be like really great at it, but it's not until you get kind of the collective mind of a society, uh, that you can really learn and grow and expand on, um, these new creative ideas. And I think that's why I resonated so much with the book. I truly did take away a lot from it. And in fact, my favorite interview for sure was when you were sticking with, uh, your friend Keith Cole for sure. It was, uh, um, just really insightful, you know, as somebody who has written motorcycles before, as somebody who also photographs a, to see how the two connected, uh, really, really expanded my idea of exactly what creativity is. So,

Mark Silber: 00:19:38 yeah, I'm really fun, Buck. Well. Thank you. Yeah. I think the other thing, Raymond, is that, you know, as photographers, we shouldn't just divorce ourselves from other forms of creativity and you'll find many truly outstanding photographers have also been multitalented. Ansel Adams is a good example. He was a classical pianist. In fact, I did not know that. Yeah. As a matter of fact, he was groomed to become a, a, you know, professional pianist. And he then found photography. So He fell in love with photography. He had to make this decision which way was he going to go because he knew that you really couldn't pursue them both professionally and he decided to go with photography, yet he continued to play a piano. Uh, you know, you know, and he wrote and you know, he was involved with other creative skills than just photography. Another one of my mentors, Henry Cartier EBR Song also became a filmmaker and also a pen and ink artist. Uh, you know, I think he just transitioned to the point where he wanted a little more challenge. And I do believe that happens with some photographers that get to a point where, okay, I need a bigger challenge. And for him it was drawing and pen and ink. Wow. But no matter what the skills are, there are these common points, which is what I try to put together in the book. Okay.

Raymond: 00:21:04 W that's kind of interesting. Um, hearing, hearing everybody else's take. Now you interviewed, um, quite a few people for your book. Yeah. I want to know, um, because you interviewed a lot of non photographers, I want to know, uh, who surprised you the most with maybe one of their answers?

Mark Silber: 00:21:23 You know, um, to me the most startling and the most kind of insightful interview is with the photographer, but he's not known. He's not a pro photographer. And that's Chris McCaskill who is one of the, you know, he and his family founded smugmug, which has now become huge, really, really huge. And they, they ended up acquiring flicker. So they're kind of the biggest in the industry. But Chris's interview, I knew something about it because he had told me this story kind of a while. Actually, while we were setting up for a workshop, he sort of told me a little bits and pieces of this story and I couldn't believe it. I always thought I wanted to come back and find out more. But basically what happened was he grew up on the streets of Oakland homeless. His mother was a schizophrenia and she just lost it.

Mark Silber: 00:22:14 So she had actually, you know, been a research scientist and whatnot and somehow, wow, they ended up on the streets of Oakland homeless. But the short version of this story is that he was able to get back into society. He earned his MBA at Stanford. He became a serial entrepreneur. And along the way, I worked with Steve Jobs, but one of the things that kind of blew me away is that he said every single day he didn't take for granted the things that we have in our culture. The fact that you could open your refrigerator and it's stocked with food, that you could get on a bus and go skiing, that you could take a warm shower, that there were educational facilities available to you that anyone can access. So he said every day is a joy for him because he knows how bad it can be. And I found, I found that to be really remarkable because I think we can overlook the fact that, wow, we were pretty privileged no matter where we are now, what our station is as a whole, as a culture, we're pretty privileged and we can forget that a lot of people aren't living that way.

Mark Silber: 00:23:27 Sure. And overcoming that is pretty remarkable to go that far.

Raymond: 00:23:32 So that's, that's, that's really interesting. Do you think that it's because of his, uh, now obviously you can't speak for him, but do you think that he got that point of view because of his, of, of, of being homeless and having, having nothing?

Mark Silber: 00:23:46 Oh, absolutely. You know, he went from homeless to up kind of an upper middle class family. And for instance, he said, you know, the fact that you could go on a bus and go skiing was just unbelievable. Yeah. You know, he had a comparison point for the rest of us. You know, we're, we can go along with things to the point where it just seems normal and natural, but for him it was just such an on off switch, you know, nothing to something in a very short period of time really caused him to be aware of all the, all the cool things that we have available to us. And I think his love of photography really is part of that.

Raymond: 00:24:26 How do you equate that, that mindset, um, to, uh, I don't want to say being more creative, but adding creativity into somebody's life. Does that make sense? Does that yeah. Shouldn't have substance?

Mark Silber: 00:24:39 I think so. And I, I think it's kind of the story of most of these interviews, these, every one of them had something to overcome. You know, some were personal hardships. Some of them were like Nancy Cartwright, who is the voice of Bart Simpson, you know, and something like nine or 12 I lost track other voices on the Simpson. Oh yeah. As well as all sorts of other voices that you wouldn't even know. But you know, she tells the story about coming from catering Ohio, which isn't exactly the Mecca for an actress. Sure.

Coming from catering Ohio to going to UCLA, obviously in the middle of Hollywood near Hollywood, and getting her career launched and it just, as she was launching her career, her mother died and it was a huge setback and a huge turning point for her. Do I go home? What do I do?

Mark Silber: 00:25:34 I mean, what am I doing now? Her mom was obviously a really important part of her life and then just after that her brother died. So she was hit by these two really traumatic experiences that could have thrown her off track. But you realize the importance of even to honor them to remain on her creative path. And I'm not exactly directly answering your question, but I think that the answer is that each of us has to overcome certain things. We've all got, you know, whatever it is, financial or emotional or inner demons or whatever that we have to push through and push over and push past to achieve the goal of, of being a creative. And it's not just a finger snap, you know, something you have to work at.

Raymond: 00:26:22 Yeah. Well that, that's funny cause I think, um, before I read your book, if you were to ask me where creativity came from, I probably would've said a place of pressure and like out of spontaneity. But now after reading your book, I can now see like that I was looking at it all wrong. What do you think are some other misconceptions that people have about creativity?

Mark Silber: 00:26:50 You know, Raymond, I think the most common misconception is I'm, I'm not creative. So some people are, you're born, you're born creative, you're born with a paint brush in your hand. You know, Pablo Picasso, it's like he must've been a great artists from age two or uh, you know, Chase Jarvis was a stellar photographer and had no hardships or whatever, or Chris Burkhardt, you know, it just became an overnight success if you're not familiar with him on Instagram. But let's, let's take Chris as a, as an example. You know, he said it was a lot of work. It was like a 10 year overnight success. Yeah. And you work hard at it and you persevere. And I think the most common misconception is some people haven't and some people don't. And I don't believe that's true. And a number of my guests at the same thing, I believe everyone has some area that they can be creative in.

Mark Silber: 00:27:46 And let's expand the idea of what creativity means. It doesn't just mean being a great photographer. It could be in any form of art, including life itself. You know, I, I believe that, uh, you know, somebody who's a great cook that's creative. Obviously you're making something, which is what creativity means. You're creating something out of raw material and you're using your imagination to put it together, which is what you do with a photograph or you do with a painting or you do with decorating your house. So the, the key I believe is this, find your passion, find your area of creativity and roll with it. And then just expand from there and know that you do have the ability to be creative no matter what it is. So that to me is the most common misconception.

Raymond: 00:28:35 I love that. And I want to share a personal anecdote real quick. Yeah. And that's, uh, every year I have a pretty short wedding season. I don't like to book too early. I don't like to shoot too late. Um, and I always find that like, uh, I'll have a good year and then come, you know, may when it's time to start shooting again, I feel really, really rusty. And when I get out there and start shooting, it's nowhere near as good as the photos that I take towards the end of the year. Like October when I've done that practice when I've put in the work and when I uh, you know, just made that time to be doing more photography. So um, I can, I can vouch for, for that statement right there is that you're either born with it or you or you're not. Because in May I would say, ah, what am I doing? Like people are gonna find out I'm a fraud, but in October I'm like, I'm feeling good. Like I need to be doing some of those. Yeah, exactly.

Mark Silber: 00:29:24 Yeah. You know, it's interesting cause that kind of ties in with the whole cycle of creativity that I go over, which might be a good point to just touch upon that. Absolutely. So at this, at the starting point at the center, which actually never ends, is the idea of visualization, which is vision for whatever it is you want to create. If you're a wedding photographer, you have some vision of the, of the wedding, you have some idea who you're going to take photographs of. You have a shot list. You, you have a style that you've already visualized it. Maybe you've talked over with the, with the couple, you know, that's your visualization. Ansel Adam said it's the most, or he actually said it's the key to a photograph. So he, he was somebody who talked about visualization all the time because if you just press the shutter without visualizing first, you're missing that whole artistic process and to become a reporter.

Mark Silber: 00:30:19 Yeah, yeah. You're, you're snapshotting and you're recording rather than creating the second, uh, step in the creative process is knowing your tools and what you described is, you know, if you're a little rusty, you got to kind of get back into gear with your tools. Right. And we all have to do that. Unfortunately, you know, you leave something, sit there on the shelf for awhile, you got to get back into the groove of it. Absolutely. But knowing your tools is incredibly important. Bob Home said, don't let the camera get in the way of your photography. I love that. And you know, we've all had that happen. We've had the camera get in the way of our photographs. So you got to know your camera so well that it doesn't get in the way. Then you work your craft, you get into production, you do whatever it is, whether it's photography or shooting film or writing a book, it's just work.

Mark Silber: 00:31:09 You know, it's, it's, it's a job not in a bad way, but it's, you have to look at it like that. Writing a book, you have to sit down every day. And Ryan, if every day you don't write the book doesn't write itself, wouldn't be nice. It would be nice. Uh, photographs don't take themselves, you take them. So it's working, making sure you have a schedule, a work schedule, and overcoming the biggest barrier that I believe the biggest excuse would be time. And I devoted a whole chapter to overcoming that barrier. But um, from there you edit and you refine. We all have to, you know, obviously I never let a photograph go anywhere without editing in some way, you know? I'm sure you're the same way. Oh yeah. You know, it doesn't go on Instagram for my camera. It goes via Lightroom and then it goes to Instagram.

Mark Silber: 00:32:04 But editing has all sorts of different forms to it. You know, there's, there's uh, editing in terms of how to put a body of work together. There's editing your writing, there's editing, even your life, cutting out those things that are distracting. Yesterday I gave advice to somebody, you know, and I said, uh, how many hours a day are you watching TV or playing video games? And I s it was a, it was a fairly sizable number. I said, why don't you invest three of those hours into learning your skills instead of that? Yeah, I mean that's just common advice I would give anyone take that time that you're, you don't feel you have, cause you're using it for something you really don't need to do. It's just, it's an investment. So invest it wisely just like you want to invest money wisely. And then finally, after you've edited, then you're going to share it with others.

Mark Silber: 00:32:54 And that's the final part of the creative process. And it doesn't mean giving it away for free. It means putting it out there to the world. In some form, whether it's putting it on your wall, a print, you know, that's nicely framed or putting in a book or putting in in an exhibit or in a case of wedding photographers, you know, sh obviously you're sharing it back to the bride and groom and a family, but you're getting it back to the world. You're giving it back to the world and if you get paid for it so much, the better.

Raymond: 00:33:25 Yeah, no kidding. No kidding. But uh, it's, it's a lot harder to, to pay the bills when you're not getting paid for sure. Yeah,

Mark Silber: 00:33:31 it really is. I find that extremely satisfying. You know, there's a lot of different ways you can make money, but I think the most satisfying is through a creative process and if you enjoy my creative process, all the better, all the better, all the better. Absolutely.

Raymond: 00:33:46 As I said earlier, your interview, you have interviewed a lot of people in this book and uh, my favorite was your interview with Keith Cole, who again, as you mentioned earlier, is a motorcycle, not only rider but instructor. And it was his process of taking action with new ideas that really got, uh, my brain flowing. That was cool. That was very cool cause it wasn't, it's not that he's creating something visual to show people, it's that he's creating a process to uh, give to others so that they can create something to show people, I guess in a way, in a way. Uh, what did you find are some of the, uh, other key tools of seriously creative people or I'm sorry, seriously talented people.

Mark Silber: 00:34:30 Yeah. Well they're both talented and creative. Yeah. You know, here's the biggest one that I think was just that resonated through everyone of these interviews and that's perseverance and persistence because it does take a while sometimes to get your ideas out there. And he is a good example of a guy who really did persist and has become the number one motorcycle. Uh, he has number one training school for motorcycle enthusiasts. Um, but it's, it's getting past those hurdles, especially the inner ones. And virtually everyone of the people I interviewed mentioned something about the inner demons that you have to overcome. It's a really mentioned it, the real thing. You mentioned it just a minute ago, you know that imposter syndrome, you know, they're going to find out, I really don't know what I'm doing. This camera, you know, it's like we all run into this stuff and unfortunately a lot of those can come from an external source.

Mark Silber: 00:35:29 Somebody who's negative a troll essentially. And you know, the worst thing you can do with that is bring it into your own mind and start using it against yourself. And that just takes some discipline. So I again, I believe that that we each have this inner ability to be creative. I think it's part and parcel of who we are. Uh, whether you consider that it's a spiritual quality, which I haven't to Bambi can trial who I've interviewed a number of times. One of the most amazing portrait and wedding photographers said, you know, look, here's what I consider a photo shoot is all about. It's finding that spirit, the spirit of the person. Anyone can learn to use a camera, but not everybody can cut through and put the person at ease the way she does. Yeah. And, and allow them to show themselves. And those are the things that we have to be able to do to really master the craft.

Mark Silber: 00:36:31 Geez. Yeah, that's, that's, that's a very good point. That's a very good point. What would you say to, to people who feel like they can't, like they're not good at connecting with people enough to, to, to see their soul, I suppose. Yeah, it's definitely a skill that one has to acquire. And, um, you know, one of these days I might give a workshop just to address that because at the end of the day, you know, you have your, you have your technical skills as a photographer, but then you have your people skills. And, you know, I've done a lot of interviews, not just the, the ones with photographers, but a lot of commercial interviews with CEOs and you know, people who've created incredible startups and so on and so forth. And not everybody's comfortable on camera, as you probably know, right? Very much. Ah, they, they get nervous. They freeze up.

Mark Silber: 00:37:23 They even start sweating and feel really uncomfortable. And I consider my job. Uh, of course we're going to capture it technically, but my real job is to put them at ease. So it's a set of skills and unfortunately I, you know, the book is a little beyond the, it's beyond the scope of the book, but who knows, maybe I'll teach a workshop just on that because there's definitely skills that want to, one can acquire and using them helps people

feel who they really are, you know? Yeah, absolutely. I would imagine having that ability to just calm people down is very important tool to have in your tool bag, I suppose it is. So what do you think are some, I guess, why do you think that we need a set of tools for, uh, creativity? Well, in any creative field, whether it's photography, I mean, that's pretty obvious.

Mark Silber: 00:38:16 Your tools or your camera, your lens is a, you know, all your various pieces of equipment. Like you've got a physical tools. Yeah. Tripod behind you. You know, you've got all these physical tools. Those are pretty obvious in any craft. You know, if you're a writer, it's either, probably not going to be writing with a pen these days. Yeah, no, but you might, you might have a voice recorder. I'd record. I did some of the book, a hidden, a little anecdote about the book. Um, I'm a surfer and uh, I, I had a fairly long, it was like a 45 minute drive to go surfing. And I thought, well, let me try recording some chapters and see how that turns out. Well, it turned out okay, but it turned out I had to do a lot of editing to make it work. Some people I guess can turn on a recorder and it just flows right out.

Mark Silber: 00:39:07 But for me, I had to, I had to almost do as much work as writing it from the original, but it did give me a framework to work from. But that's a tool, you know, recording, transcribing. These are all various physical tools one uses. And then there's the, the nonphysical tools of knowing how, you know, your editing software works and frame what framing you should use and your, your skills of composition. Uh, you know, these are other tools. You've got to know all those tools because they're all part and parcel of how you're going to create something. You know, I, I walk into a kitchen, I, there's about three meals I have that I can do really well. You know, I've maybe five, maybe I could bump it up to five if I really had say five. Yeah, we'll make a second. Let's say there's five.

Mark Silber: 00:39:56 I can make incredible pesto. I can barbecue great chicken, I make great salad, and the list kind of dwindles out from there, but at least I can get away with it. And people think, wow, he's pretty good cook. Well, yeah, with those three meals. But then I look at somebody else and another friend of mine who's just totally at home in the kitchen, they know what utensils to use, what, you know, temperature, this, that, and the other thing. They have a wider variety of things that they can master. So knowing those tools is, you know, it's just an extension of your skillset. Because remember, what creativity is, is it's basically making something out of nothing or out of raw materials. First you have to visualize it, but then once you visualize it, you've got to put it together. So, you know, there's all sorts of ways to do that.

Raymond: 00:40:47 Yeah. I don't know if you've seen that a, that I don't know if it's a new show. Maybe it's an old show on Netflix called, uh, a fat, uh, acid salt. Oh, wait about, there was one episode specifically where, uh, the host, and I forget her name, uh, if she's listening, I apologize. She's not listening, uh, where she goes and she, uh, she's in Italy and, uh, she is creating pesto like from scratch with somebody who has been doing it for like generations. And watching that alone. It's funny that you had said that because watching that alone made me, made me, uh, uh, see it in an entirely different light. You know, the way that she, she almost like weighed like, like counted the pine that's the Geo put into this recipe. And I was like, wow. Down, like down to the, the, the, the smallest little, um, ingredient, you know, she used the tools of this is what works, this is how I know to make this and this is what I'm going to do. And uh, I remembered that I thought of that scene specifically when I was, when I was reading through your book, looking at the, the five elements or the five stages of, uh, creativity. So that was cool that, that you are also a, a, a connoisseur of Pesto as well.

Mark Silber: 00:41:54 I don't, I, I may, I do make really killer Pesto and I met, I probably will never reveal the secret. Oh no, that's gotta be your last book. That will be my last book making remarkable Pesto.

Raymond: 00:42:07 Uh, in a recent study that I had sent out to, um, my audience, 23% of the people who answered this survey, uh, of the listeners claimed that they were not. Yeah. And I've thought that that was a, a huge number for people who are trying to get into photography. What would you say are just some simple ways that we can increase our creativity in our everyday life?

Mark Silber: 00:42:32 Okay. I think, you know, Raymond, I actually believe that number is higher than the average person because think about it, you know, they're already at least photographers, but I think if you walked down the street, I think it becomes a much lower number. Like maybe 40% believe that they are creative. So maybe 60% think they aren't the easiest thing, and this is really simple and it's something that if you follow it, it will improve your creative skills. And that is going to museums, go to museums, look at works of art and it doesn't matter. It doesn't even have to be in your genre at all. In fact, it's sometimes best if it isn't. But, um, whatever museum you have nearby, go to it. Because what you're finding there is you're building your visual library up. What resonates for you? You know, what is it about that Picasso that you really like?

Mark Silber: 00:43:30 What is it about, you know, Rembrandt, what is it about that sculpture or even, you know, other forms like movies? You know, when I watch movies, I'm looking at the camera shots and I'm looking at, you know, how they framed it and how, you know, how they edited it and timing and music. All these other things are kind of like going into my kind of visual or my library, my mental library and I, you know, that's really cool how they did that. And sometimes the oddest things can stimulate your creativity. One of the guys I interviewed a while ago, Joseph Holmes, fantastic landscape photographer, he, I asked him who his inspiration was and I expected to hear, you know, the usual ansul Adams or Edward West. And he said the Beatles. Wow. Really? He was at the last beetle concert in 1966 and it just blew him away.

Mark Silber: 00:44:26 And something sparked for him creatively. But you wouldn't, I wouldn't look at a landscape photograph and think that had anything to do with the Beatles, but for him it did. So that's the simplest thing. Just sat out a course of following, you know, various artists and going to museums, looking at them, but really go past, wow, I like this, I don't like that. Try to look at it in terms of what really resonates for you. And I mentioned that in the book. Take a notebook with you and jot these things down. You know, because you're going to come away with, with the ideas that you can then use later. And they may sit there for a long time before you pull them out. It might be years, but you go, you know, I remember something that Leonardo Davinci said, this is actually pretty cool. He said, go around and walk around and look at people, look at them in all sorts of situations.

Mark Silber: 00:45:27 Look at them when they're angry. Look at them when they're upset. How do they move their hands? What are their feet look like? What is their facial expression look like? That's just material that you can kind of again, plug into your understanding of how people really react in life. Yeah, and he used those little illustrations. You know, he drew, he drew these things and later he came back and used them, uh, you know, in really remarkable ways because he had such a realistic idea of what people actually look like. That's something that really strikes us. You know, that he really observe people and that's a key skill right there.

Raymond: 00:46:10 And then when it came time to replicate that in one of his pieces of art, he could use that visualization. The last supper reference. Yeah.

Mark Silber: 00:46:16 Yeah. He'd go, you actually have little sketches of people that he found in various places that he used in the last supper painting. You know, it's pretty amazing.

Raymond: 00:46:25 I did not know that. I did not know that. That is really cool. Jeez. Yeah. Uh, so, um, I got, like I, I, I mentioned, I think before we started recording, I got a few questions from the love to hear the group. So I asked what kind of questions do you have about creativity? And I thought there's nobody better to ask about this. And surprisingly, I got a lot of questions about composition, so you know, that I link them to okay. Because it's, it's hands down just the best resource, uh, for composition. So the first question came from Wayne and Wayne actually asked a a great question that I think that we covered in our first, or at least that we touched upon in our first interview together back in episode 67. And he wants to know about bridging the creative gap. So he wants to me, he said, bridging the creative gap between what you envisioned and how you make that a reality. He said, I don't know about anybody else, but I have crazy photography based dreams of photos that I would love to capture. And then when I wake up, I have no idea how to start the process. What would you say to Wayne?

Mark Silber: 00:47:26 You know, Wayne, that's a really good question. That's a discussion I had with Chase Jarvis back in 2008 we had this, uh, we were talking about the creative gap. You know, it just, it's just something you have to work towards and it's a matter of not compromising with your vision. You have a vision, which is great. Just keep working towards it and finding ways to express it because really, ultimately it comes down to your skill. If you can start to match and we're trying to close that gap, you know, maybe it starts out a pretty wide gap between what you visualize and what your actually your visualizations up here and your ability to produce it is here. But as you keep working at, you're going to close that gap and that's really what it's all about. It's just increasing your skill in that area until you can close that gap.

Raymond: 00:48:22 It takes a lot. It takes a lot. It takes a lot. And I think that, uh, one thing that has helped me in the past when I've had an idea for a photo is a digging your advice. Just having that notebook, kind of writing it down, thinking about, well, what would I say to the person in front of me to get them to look the way, uh, that I want to and enabled to know what I want to say. I have to know exactly how I want them to look. And there's there's or that visualization, uh, comes in. But exactly. I think of the day like it's all, it's all just like putting in the time, putting in the time behind the camera, doing the work, getting to know everything about your cameras, situation, how it reads lights so that when the time comes you're just that much closer. Exactly. Yup. Okay. So the next question that I got was from Charlene and she wants to know this is, this is one that a lot of people struggle with. She wants to know, I'm curious as to when a piece stops being just a photograph and it becomes art.

Mark Silber: 00:49:16 Oh boy, that's an age old question. Yeah. When is it art? When is it just a, a reproduction of what's in front of you and that discussion has been going on for, you know, really it, it, Ansell Adams is one of the first photographers that crossed that gap in and I think that it, it really has to do with, you know, what is art? Art is something that you're creating, but it's very subjective also. You know, what's beautiful, what isn't beautiful. You know, music is a perfect example. Um, you know, there's a lot of rap music that Rosemay the wrong way, but then I can hear, let's say m and, m I think. Wow, that's pretty cool. I just listened to the rhythm and it's very poetic, but it's, it's, it's very subjective and photography is the same way. I'd say the answer to that is if you're just being a recording person, you're recording a scene by pushing the shutter.

Mark Silber: 00:50:15 Uh, that's not necessarily being an artist. It's not necessarily being creative. But if you're doing something beyond that where you're, you're highlighting the, or, you know, Ansul Adam said, you know, people consider me a, a realistic photographer. It's just not realistic. You don't see skies that are black and, and pure white and pure black. And he said he's manipulating this whole scene, you know, in the dark room. But that makes him an artist because he's changing something about what's out there. Or He's putting it in a certain

way that, you know, you can stop and see the beauty of it. But my only advice, because this is really a discussion that's a really a pretty fundamental philosophical discussion, um, is to, to really understand what it is you're trying to create. And the best way to do that is get your dictionary out and look up some of these keywords.

Mark Silber: 00:51:17 Look up creativity. Look up are, I do have these definitions in my book. I make it a little easier for you, but by understanding those words, this is something mark Isom, who's a musician friend of mine, won multiple awards. A, the guy is just unbelievable. But he said really understanding, uh, that these concepts in these words really helped him out with his art. So, because at the end of the day, it's something we all have to decide for ourselves. What is art, what it is, what's your art? You know, I know the difference between, for me, you know, I take a lot of pictures just to record the moment, you know. Sure. Somebody's birthday party. I'm not trying to turn that into work of art, right? But I want to, I want to take a shot. I want to remember it. I know that I'm not creating art at that moment. Sometimes you surprise yourself though.

Raymond: 00:52:12 No. Okay. That's a good point. I want to ask you then because I think as, as we become more skilled, as we build those tools, uh, that we have suddenly for us, maybe just a snapshot has some artistic intention, right? The photos that we take, we're now framing in a different way than just pulling up our phone and taking the photo. We're like true. Pulling the camera up and pointing it down or something. Is that, is that still just a snapshot because now you've introduced that artistic intention?

Mark Silber: 00:52:38 No, I don't think so at all. I think that what you're doing is so natural to you as a photographer that it doesn't seem like much, but to the average person, you're doing something. Okay. Here's a perfect example. Uh, I was at a restaurant with a friend. Um, the head chef came over to give him something. They actually gave him a bottle of, uh, olive oil that had been brought over from Italy. And, uh, so he said, would you take a picture? You know, and I took, you know, I held up my iPhone and I said, hey, move over here, move there, change the bat, you know, clean up the background a little bit and took the photograph. It didn't seem like anything to me. I wasn't, I wasn't thinking I was creating a work of art. Uh, I may have even put it on mode to blur the background. Even if I did and I cleaned it, certainly cleaned up the background and framed it. And my friend said afterwards, you know, watching you is amazing because I saw your skills come out and just the iPhone photograph. But to me, I didn't even notice. It just seemed like brushing my teeth, you know? Okay. Hey, you're doing a good job, mark. Really, I'm just brushing my teeth. Yeah. So I think it's, yeah. So maybe I could turn that into, um, a work of art

Raymond: 00:53:55 there for that line is, is so blurred. It's so blurred. You know, it's interesting stuff. Well.

Mark Silber: 00:54:02 Okay, look at some of these artists like Banksy or, uh, Andy Warhol, you know, with, with the classic, uh, Campbell Soup. Yeah. How come that's art, but it is, it definitely is.

Raymond: 00:54:14 Yeah. Yeah. I think, uh, yeah. I don't know. I mean it's so, it's so subjective. It's so hard to tell. It really is it really true to it? Um, so you are a photographer, so I'm excited to get your perspective on this. I want to know what you think is one of the biggest actionable takeaways that, uh, one of the listeners can take away, uh, from your book.

Mark Silber: 00:54:37 Wow. Read the whole thing. Let's start there. That's step number one. The biggest takeaway is this, I would say is that one can improve their creative skills. It's not just something that is inherent or there's no control over it or whatever. This is similar to my premise when I started my composition book because uh, you know, I realized a lot of people

had asked me, you know, for advice with composition and I really didn't have a good answer for them because I felt that it was a fairly intuitive thing that you had to just sort of learn the feel of it and blah, blah blah. And then I realized, wait a minute, that's not really, that's not how you learn how to cook. So how you learn how to paint, you know, you follow some sort of template, right? So I thought there must be a template to composition and sure enough, you know, like I came away with these 83 compositional elements.

Mark Silber: 00:55:35 Now it's really important to understand those are not in dolls right there. They're just elements and you still have to put them to work. You still have to, you know, put the rest of your creativity in, into the photograph. But if you know these skills, if they're in your mind, chances are you're going to be able to pull them out and use them when you need to. And I think that the biggest takeaway that I hope people get is that you can improve your creativity. You, it isn't something that, you know, levels off and that's it. You can work at it and you can strip away the things that get in the way of your creativity. And I tried to give people exercises. By the way, at the end of every chapter I have summary questions where I try to ask questions that get people to really look at the material they've just read because it does absolutely no good to just intellectualize it. You have to put it to work, you have to make a change. Otherwise it's like reading a book on um, Yoga, but never doing one yoga exercise,

Raymond: 00:56:42 every photography, Youtube video on the Internet and not picking up a camera,

Mark Silber: 00:56:46 not picking up a camera or watching cooking shows and never going into the kitchen. So you've got to go past the intellectual phase of this thing. That's why I asked those questions. And at the right below that I give action steps. And in my action steps, one of the things I asked for excuses that you had for these various things, like I brushed on it and we don't really have time to get into it in detail, but time is probably the biggest excuse. I just don't have enough time, you know? Yeah. We have to make the time and we have to carve out, you know, the excess stuff where we're wasting time and put it to use where you want it to go.

Raymond: 00:57:26 I've got to admit, uh, as I got to the end of each chapter, I, uh, was looking forward to and both dreading that part because it was like, oh, here we go. Now I gotta look at myself and face all of my flaws. Uh, but it was truly helpful and that was definitely the hardest question of, of, of, uh, what excuses can you come up with to not do that. So, uh, but overall wonderful. Uh, mark, I truly enjoyed our chat today. I know that we're running out of time and I truly enjoyed our chat today. Can you let the listeners know where they can find you online and where they can get a copy of your new book?

Mark Silber: 00:57:58 Absolutely. So mark Silber on Amazon, m a R C S I l B e r will lead you to my books and create, you'll find we'll be there, uh, or go to probably a better yet. Go to my website, Silber studios.com and that's sil, B as in boy e r studios.com. From there you'll see links to the books. This one and my previous books. You'll also see resource pages. We're adding resources for what's in the book so you can easily look things up and follow up on things. But those are the easiest ways to find the book. And I even have a preorder bonus if you order it, uh, and come back to my website. There's a free download, which is a quick start guide to creativity. How about that?

Raymond: 00:58:49 Really? That's interesting. That's, yeah, that's really exciting. That's really exciting. Um, I dunno if this will be in, I'm not sure exactly when the a episode will come out, but um, when does the book officially launch? July 23rd July. Oh yeah, no, it will definitely be out by then. Okay, perfect. Perfect.

Mark Silber: 00:59:06 So, so if you, or if you order it before then just go ahead and get your preorder bonus. You'll get it shipped as soon as the book comes out.

Raymond: 00:59:14 Awesome. Well, again, mark, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and thank you for putting it together. These books that have so

Raymond: 00:59:22 many people including, uh, my audience. Uh, it was a pleasure to talk with you today. Thank you Raymond. My pleasure as well. It is always a pleasure chatting with mark. He has this down to earth approach to some, you know, sometimes pretty complicated ideas and you know, just hearing his view is really refreshing. My biggest takeaway for this episode was just how much, how much creativity can truly be incorporated in our everyday lives. It doesn't have to be the main thing. You don't have to create one thing to be creative. And you know, creativity doesn't have to be all a bright colors and a whimsical design. It can be everywhere in meal planning, in how you pack your camera gear in, how you learn something new. It is everywhere. It is everywhere. And that that I hope that I know you are going to take away, uh, definitely from his book if you pick it up.

Raymond: 01:00:22 So again, you can pick up a copy of Mark's new book on Amazon and again, a highly recommend that you do so. Or You can win yourself a copy by enrolling in auto two. Amazing today. So to learn more about auto to amazing, just head over to learn dot beginner photography podcast.com or click the link in the show notes now. So that is it for this week's interview. Until next week, I want you to get out. I want you to keep shooting. I want you to focus on yourself and I want you to stay safe. All right, that's it. I love you all.

Outtro: 01:01:01 If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.

BPP 156: GFWiliams - Commercial Supercar Photography

GFWilliams is an automotive photographer from Great Britain. He has been ranked as one of the top supercar automotive photographers to follow online, take one look at his work and it’s clear to see why.

Become A Premium Member is access to more in-depth questions that help move you forward!

In This Episode You'll Learn:

• How George got his start in photography

• The hardest part about photography to learn

• The job description of an automotive photographer

• How to create a story in your image when your subject has no face

• How much planning is involved in an automotive shoot

• The importance of light and artificial light

• The biggest mistakes new automotive photographers make

Premium Members Also Learn:

• Who hires Automotive photographers

• How to book your first magazine shoot

• Selling your photos vs licensing and how George is changing the industry

• What kind of gear you need to be taken seriously as a professional

Resources:

• Supercar Automotive Photographer GFWilliams website

• GFWilliams on Instagram

Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

Full Interview Transcription:

Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.

Raymond: 00:00 Hey Raymond here from the beginner photography podcast. And today we're talking about supercar photography with one of the best. So let's get into it.

Intro: 00:10 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfields, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raymond interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now with you as always, husband, father, Ho brewer, La Dodger Fan and Indianapolis wedding photographer Raymond Hatfield. Welcome

Raymond: 00:40 back to this episode of the beginner photography podcast. As always, I am Raymond, your host and a wedding photographer here in Indianapolis. And if you have never been to Indianapolis in the month of May, you are missing out Indianapolis in May, uh, Indianapolis hosts the Indy 500, uh, during the month of May and kind of all over the entire month is kind of, um, focused or, or centered around automotive racing. And obviously automotive racing has a huge history here in a Indian in, in Indianapolis. That was kind of hard to say. And uh, for, for more than a hundred years. So this is like, it becomes an event and the entire city, the community gathers around and we all get excited, uh, for one thing. And that is, uh, just the smell of, you know, engines and in just the sounds, it's great. And the flyover practice, it's so much fun. And because of this, I think I've had a bit of, um, you know, a lot of a car, um, you know, ideas just kinda running through my head.

Raymond: 01:53 Uh, so surprise today I interview a commercial automotive photographer and, uh, I've never interviewed a commercial automotive photographer before, and in fact, I've never spoke with a commercial automotive photographer before. So this is a really interesting interview. Um, w that, uh, that caught me off guard for, uh, you know, quite a bit of it because I didn't know exactly what I was getting into. There's, there's a lot of little nuances that are different in every, every form of photography. And, uh, automotive photography is no different. So before we get into this interview, I want you to see some of the photos that we will be talking about, uh, in, in, in the interview. So, uh, I want you to check out the show notes. I posted some photos of today's guests in the show notes and you should be able to just swipe up on your podcast player.

Raymond: 02:47 Um, if you're, if you're in, uh, the, uh, apple podcast app, I know that you can for sure, and then just take a moment to look at some of the incredible, incredible photos. All right. So, uh, once you do that, come back here. Uh, and I just want to note that there was an issue with my audio recorder, um, for George today's guests. So therefore the audio is noticeably different from recent interviews, but if you stick with it, I know that you're

going to take away some great information. And as always, I, uh, reserve a piece of the interview, uh, where me and today's guests talk more about the business side of photography. So in this case, automotive photography. So, uh, and then I saved that piece of interview for premium members of the podcast. So in today's interview, premium members are going to hear who it is that hires automotive photographers, how to book your first magazine shoot, selling your photos versus licensing your photos and how George is kind of changing the industry honestly and what kind of gear you need to be taken seriously as a professional.

Raymond: 03:58 And we all know that you can take a great photo with an iPhone and that's one thing, but when it comes to print and advertising, it is entirely different in iPhone photo just doesn't really cut it. So George talks about that as well. So if you are looking to make money in automotive photography and you want to know the answers to today's questions, then a become a premium member. Head over to beginner photography podcast.com and just click that premium membership button right there at the top and you can join to day. All right, that's it. Let's go ahead and get on into today's interview with GF Williams. GF OEMs is an automotive photographer from Great Britain. He has been ranked as one of the top automotive photographers to follow online. And if you just take one look at his work, it's clear to see why. George, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

GFWilliams: 04:49 Thank you. It's nice to be talking.

Raymond: 04:51 Yeah, I'm really excited for today's episode because we don't really get to talk to a lot of automotive photographers. I don't know why I've tried and tried many photographers like race event photographers or, um, and for some reason or another it just doesn't get to work out too well. So today, uh, I'm excited especially to have somebody of your caliber, uh, this is going to be a really great interview, but before we really get into the nitty gritty of automotive photography, can you share it with me and the listeners how you got your start in photography to begin with?

GFWilliams: 05:22 Yeah, well, it all started for fun as I think most photographers do. Um, and it was back about 10 years ago. Um, I was 16 years old and at first it wasn't a love of photography. It was a love of cars and it was an excuse to move my dad's cause around his driveway and take photos of them in the process. So that was sort of the real beginnings and just experimenting with a camera, working out what it did. I, I really liked the techie side of photography, so that really appealed. And after a while I got a bit bored of just being on the driveway. So I asked them friends to photograph their cars and it developed from there basically. Wow. 10 years later.

Raymond: 06:09 Yeah. Here you are still doing it. So how, yeah, I kind of want to know about how it started. Like when you first picked up the camera, obviously you wanted to take photos of, of your dad's car, but when you picked up the camera, did you have any idea what you were doing at all?

GFWilliams: 06:23 I'm not massively, I picked up the technical side really quickly from youtube videos, that kind of thing. Again, like a lot of people do. I think, um, and I understood how to use the camera in manual and what achieved what results fairly quickly, which meant that I could then be focusing, ignore the pun. Um, um, the more creative side and trying to do things a bit differently and trying to get the actual quality of the photography better.

Raymond: 06:54 I gotcha. I gotcha. So it all started from this love of cars. Did your dad have a, a particularly interesting car that, that made you want to photograph it?

GFWilliams: 07:04 Yeah, so he had a couple of cars at the time. He had Kate from seven and he had a replica push, three, five, six speed stuff and if you know anything about me

and then um, I still drive that push speeds then now so that I'm allowed to drive now, which is nice. So I borrow that as often as possible. And I bought myself a k from seven, three years ago. So cause that's Instagram. It is, yes.

Raymond: 07:34 That's a, that's a very cool car. I'll be sure to post the link in the show notes so that people can check it out. It's a, it's very interesting. It's open wheel, it's open roof. Uh, it's not a very traditional car that you would see on the road. And, uh, and if that's the car that, that your dad had that you wanted to photograph, I could see how, uh, that would, that would want to get you to get that camera in your hand. So do you still happen to have like those first photos? Like, do you remember how it turned out? Did you achieve what it was that you were looking for?

GFWilliams: 08:02 I could dig them out potentially. Um, I can't remember whether I've still got them. I've got photos from my earliest or from my first proper shoots. Um, which I was looking at today actually this morning. Um, it's fair to say I've got a bit better luck. Um, but there was definitely some good stuff in there, surprisingly so. Um, it's actually quite nice to look back, but this stuff on the driveway wasn't great if I'm totally honest.

Raymond: 08:37 Well that's good. Yeah, it's good to, it's good to be able to look at those photos and then, um, you know, at least assess what it is that, uh, that you either like or don't like and then, and then move forward from there. So how challenging was it there in the beginning to, um, try to get more cars to photograph if you know, if at the time you didn't even have your license?

GFWilliams: 09:00 Uh, well it was only about a year before I got my license. So at first I would get people to pick me up and we would then go and do the shoot. So they were all quite local. Um, and this was before the days of Instagram. Really? No one really used Instagram, so times have changed. Back then it was forums, um, eastern heads being the main one I used, which was very popular and I just asked stuff and said, is there anyone local that I can photograph their car? I will, not the money, I just wanted to have fun. It was never going to be a career for me at that stage. I just enjoyed it and wanted to take photos. And I wanted to learn. So luckily I had about five people come back to me saying, yeah, we'd love to do it. Let's go and take some photos. And Sarah, my misses judged purely off the photos I'd taken on the driveway, but they gave me the opportunity. So I was quite lucky. Um, so I ended up shooting a Ford Mustang, Roush, uh, ultimate DTR, which is a British kit car and a Lamborghini Guyardo.

Raymond: 10:06 Wow. Right. So like the first four guys were still like, like very, uh, like traditionally nice looking cars too.

GFWilliams: 10:15 Yeah. And that helps. They were right up my street because I have an interest in supercars as I think a lot of people do. I'm taught not to. Um, but yeah, it, it was, it became my niche that I would be photographing these kinds of cards and it's still is today. So right from the beginning until now, it's stayed true.

Raymond: 10:38 That's awesome. That's awesome. That's very rare, I think in photography that many people start off with something and then, and then continue on with it into their career. So, uh, if you could take me back to those first few shoots that you did. Uh, did you have some sort of game plan or they just picked you up and they asked her where do you want to go and did you photograph in their driveways? How did that work?

GFWilliams: 10:59 So what I did, I went onto Google maps and Google street view and I went and found as many locations as I could locally that I thought I could get away with using. Um, I wasn't too clued up on private land and where you're allowed to shoot and where you weren't of course, cause I was 16, but I figured I could get away with it because I was 16.

Um, so we went and shot some photos on a local vineyard, um, and also on a ended up real estate. So industrial sites I would very rarely use now, but in terms of an easy place to practice technique, that's perfect cause they're quiet. Um, and the vineyard, I still take some photos there today, so I explain clearly onto a winner. Yeah.

Raymond: 11:51 Do you ever, uh, this is kind of a side question. Do you ever like share those photos with the vineyard

GFWilliams: 11:57 at night? No. Gotcha. I tried to make sure they don't like this. I'm taking both of them. I did actually call them up before that first shoot and ask for permission. They said yes. And I've taken that to be permission forever. Definite permission. We buy, I sit at the, I don't do any, uh, commercial photography that and you'd just the fun.

Raymond: 12:22 Oh, right. Yeah, of course. Of course. Now I got it. I got it. Um, so, so as, as a, as an automotive photographer, I kind of want to know what do you view your, your job description as, what is it that you're trying to get out of these photos?

GFWilliams: 12:39 Um, now I would call myself a commercial automotive photographer because I, a of what my client base is, I am working for the manufacturers and I am working to a brief every time, uh, which is challenging, but I don't know. That's difficult. I, I, yeah, I'd say that sort of answers it vaguely, but I already have a job description as such. I am just a photographer. I like acts.

Raymond: 13:14 Okay. Okay. So follow up then. Uh, I guess what I'm getting at is that in wedding photography it's very easy. Like my job is to tell the story, right? It's very easy to show up on a day. People are already happy, they have emotions. Um, and it's easy to capture those emotions on subjects that have faces, you know? So how do you create some sort of story around your images?

GFWilliams: 13:38 Um, I think it's the context of where you put them is a big part of the story and it's how you, I mean, it's combination of everything if we're honest, because you've got to have the lighting, right? You've got to make sure all the lines on the car look correct. Everything counts towards that final image. And it's not necessarily that I'm trying to tell a story the whole time. Quite often I am, but it's a story that we are creating from scratch on the whole, we're making it a story as opposed to actually being a story. It as it would be with a wedding, with a wedding and events happening on the whole. I don't really shoot events, so I am making it an event. That makes sense.

Raymond: 14:28 That does make sense. And you kind of mentioned earlier about shooting a to a brief. Can you kind of talk about that a little bit? Is it, um, can you tell me what it is and where these, these briefs come from?

GFWilliams: 14:43 So the brief either comes from the agency or the client that you are working for and it in how it is, but sometimes, and this is probably most common with most of them, my work, you will have what's called a creative director and the creative director will tell you exactly what they require. Um, in terms of assets, which is what you are ultimately creating.

Raymond: 15:11 Can you tell me what that means? Is, does that mean like the photos that you give?

GFWilliams: 15:14 Yeah, exactly. The final finished photo. Um, and that asset will have a particular usage which is determined before the shoot. Say for instance, it will go on such and such a position on an Instagram feed, which is quite a common one now, but you

plan it all out in a bond so that the feed looks correct and, uh, I had the right look to it. So you've got that. And then the brief will say angle of the car, uh, if there's a look and feel that after they will state that. But quite often they will leave that down to me and they'll just give me a general steer. And I think I've got quite a lot of experience now, so they're happy to do that more when you're first starting. There'll be hopefully if you've got good clients, more specific and then they become a bit more relaxed as they've worked with you a bit more.

Raymond: 16:10 Sure, sure. So, uh, just, just so that I'm clear, it would be something like they say, hey, we need, um, five photos for Instagram. We want the car in this position and we want it to feel powerful. Go ahead and go do your thing. Does that sound about right?

GFWilliams: 16:31 Um, yeah, it's more in terms of how natural they want it to feel. Uh, whether they want the car to pop off the frame or whether they want it more to be in part of a scene, that kind of thing. And they tend to be fairly specific with angles for each shot because it needs to look correct and context and maybe for layouts of stuff as well. If it's, if it's got other usage like print, then they might put texts and they need space in a certain area of the photo and you have to think of all of that and get it correct.

Raymond: 17:10 So then you get that brief, you're like, awesome. It can you give me an example of a car maybe that you shot recently?

GFWilliams: 17:20 Uh, so I shot a high on die in America. I shot three cars, race, car.

Raymond: 17:26 They come to you and they say, here's the brief. What's the next step? You say, okay, I got Hyundai. They want this, this, this and this. How do you, how do you go about planning the shot?

GFWilliams: 17:38 So you have, the first thing you have to do is go through the what's called the bidding process, which I won't go into too much, but it basically means you're working out how much time it's going to. So once you know where you're shooting it, you can kind of work out in your mind the logistics of everything, whether you're moving between locations, that kind of thing, how long you've been, how long you think you're going to need to get those shots and you give yourself a bit of a buffer for if anything goes wrong, like weather or car issues, that kind of thing. And you then sort of allocate the amount of time and you build a schedule. Once you've done that you say how much money you want. Like yes, hopefully, uh, that's, that's the boring business side of things I don't really like. Um, and then it progresses to a, it depends on the client, but on the whole, I will then have what's called a pre production meeting with the client and talk to them in detail exactly what image and is which and how I will achieve it for both the creative and the technical aspect. Okay. Just to kill aspect as well.

Raymond: 18:56 Gotcha. So at this point where you're, where you get this brief, you're not even hired for the position yet?

GFWilliams: 19:04 Uh, no. On the whole, the brief will be sent to more than one photographer.

Raymond: 19:08 Oh, I see. Oh my gosh. Wow. So then they just kind of pick the one that fits this campaign the best for them and then they move forward

GFWilliams: 19:18 on the whole, I think this is correct in saying, I think when they send the bid out, they know who they want to use and they have to fill a process where they

get three people, at least the bed and they can do it. Um, and you have to be roughly in the right ballpark figure, but that fairly easy.

Raymond: 19:41 So then can you walk me through this process that you had with Hyundai, with this latest a set of shots that you did when you got the brief, did you already have an idea of how the photo would turn out in your head?

GFWilliams: 19:54 Uh, yeah, I could, I could work out what it needed to be from what they had said on that brief. It was, it was actually a pretty good brief. The agency were good, um, and I could work out exactly how much time it needed. Unfortunately, we had to cut it down a little bit, but such as life. Um, and I was quite lucky because the job was out in America. Obviously I'm British and I happened to be in la where the agency was so I could go and meet them for face to face and it just meant we could go and clarify exactly everything on the free or, um, the final stages of getting the logistics and everything like that. Right, right. So then walk me through the logistics. What, what, what, what does this mean when it comes to burn building the shoot day?

GFWilliams: 20:48 So I was lucky that I had a very good producer and that is someone that will do all of the logistics. So I don't have to think about that too much. But what he is effectively doing is hiring the race track that we were shooting on a sorting out accommodation, flights, food for everyone there. Anything you might need. So if you need to hire any equipment locally, that kind of thing. Um, so the, I can turn up and shoot and not be distracted thinking for instance, Oh I hope the food's going to be okay for the client. Lunchtime. I don't need to be thinking about that. I need to be shooting like, especially when we have so little time.

Raymond: 21:33 Right, right. So I these people your team or are they, do they come from the agency?

GFWilliams: 21:41 Uh, it is, I use freelances and often I will ask the agency to say who they like working with. Cause I think you've got more chance of winning the job if they're working with people they've used for sure. But I also have a selection of people throughout the world that I know now who are very good at it.

Raymond: 22:00 Oh good, good, good. Okay. So, um, I, so like you said earlier that it's more common for a company to hire you rather than a single person. Um, how is that, how it worked for you in the beginning, like for those first few shots that you did? Um, no,

GFWilliams:

Raymond:

GFWilliams:

22:22 22:22 22:24 22:25

lots of,
not at all. Okay. Can you,

yeah, that,
Hey Raymond here and if you're listening to this, you are listening

Raymond:
to the free version of today's interview. If you want to hear more from today's guest about the business of photography, consider becoming a premium member every week. Guests answer questions about products, pricing packages and so much more that will help your growing photography business to rise. This is the next logical step to join head over to beginning of photography, podcast.com and click the premium membership button at the top of the page. Interesting. Okay. So that, that perfectly ties into my next question, which is, uh, how important is, uh, lighting for, for automotive photography. So if you had to guess, if you just had to take a shot in the dark, what percentage of your photos would you say are mostly natural lighting and what percentage of your photos have some sort of artificial lighting?

GFWilliams: 23:22 It's hard to say as a percentage term because it more depends on the job and the brief. But well over half of my, I'd probably say over 60, 70% of my work is natural light. Oh Wow. Okay. So quite a lot. I, I, I'm of the opinion that if you can simplify things, do, um, especially if you get a do the result by simplifying than do it cause it's more efficient. Uh, and that's quite important in a commercial world, but thinking more of a creative sense. Um, I think you're best off using lighting. So get a natural light shot, make it look as good as you can and then add flash only if necessary to sort of lift the image a little bit. They trying to be fairly subtle.

Raymond: 24:24 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So how, if you know, most people enthusiasts, right? Car enthusiasts, even hobbyists will go out and if they see a supercar, they're like, oh, I got to take a photo of this. And then they take the photo and the photo is usually garbage. Right? Um, even though that is done with natural light. So do you have some tips for beginners to kind of manipulate natural light in a way that will make a car look more pleasing?

Speaker 4: 24:49 Okay.

GFWilliams: 24:50 Yeah. So a big thing about car photography is polarization and how that reacts with the car. So a polarizer is a filter that only lets through certain way blends I believe is probably the best description of it. And what that really does is it means you can cuts out reflections on a reflecting car, body or window, and you can twist the polarizer to get different, uh, sections of the car blanked, not blanked out, but less reflections on certain sections. Uh, so that is a really useful thing to have on your Lens. As a car photographer. You have one on every lens and you use it pretty much all the time. And it's only if you want loads of reflections that you'll ever take it off. So I'm sure that's pretty important. Not really.

GFWilliams: 25:48 Um, I think the second part of that is you should be walking around the car looking at various different things on the car. Um, in terms of reflections, in terms of where the light is captured, cap catching on parts of the body work. So if certain Bates are in shadow, it creates more shape in the car sometimes. Um, and kind of showing the car in the best light that you can, that is available if the car is parked. All you can do is walk around it and step back from it, different heights, that kind of thing. If you're then controlling the car and you can park it anywhere on a location, you have total flexibility to get the car with the best background, with the best lighting possible. So yeah, it sort of opens up a world of opportunity, which is quite interesting and takes time to learn, but you do learn what works best and it becomes second nature. So

Raymond: 27:03 that makes sense. Yeah. Have you ever had a, uh, I'm sure you have. Can you tell me about one of the most challenging shoots that a, that you've had a you've had to go through.

GFWilliams: 27:14 There's sort of challenging in different ways. Of course failure is a very challenging thing to deal with,

Raymond: 27:24 but that that's out of control. Right? Okay. Oh, I guess a lot of things would be out of control I suppose. Like you show up to a situation, camera works fine, car looks great but something's not working.

GFWilliams: 27:37 Yeah. It's, that's pretty rare actually. Um, it's normally an external factor that causes the problems. Um, I think the client picks you to because they like your style, the problems arise when there's conflicting opinions between various different people within an agency or within the client. And so while one person may like it, another one might hate it for instance. And then you've just got to try and work through these things in order to

get to somewhere where everyone is as happy as can be to get it signed off. And I think that is probably the biggest challenge that you will ever face is when someone just doesn't like it. But if you've done it in your own style, which is what they hired for, you've kind of, you've got to be confident in your own ability. And if they don't like it, then that just is what it is. And you've just got to keep working with them to try and get to a point where it works. And sometimes you may not like the end result, but they might like it for instance. And such is life. You're getting paid. So who cares. Okay. That's frustrating though. Very.

Raymond: 29:01 Yeah. So what sorts of things would they be, sorry, I thought you was coming back in. What sorts of things would uh, would I guess producers or creative directors, uh, want changed, um,

GFWilliams: 29:17 that you were kind of normally situation? Normally it stuff that you can change in retouching. Um, so the effect on the car, how it's fitting with the background, sometimes even what the background is. Um, so I had a project where the creative director really wanted CGI and he was telling me exactly what CGI he wanted. I'd shot the car in a studio. And in my opinion, it looked great with the studio background. The creative director was very set in his decisions of what he wanted and ultimately we just couldn't make the photo look good and we really struggled to come up with a solution that worked. And ultimately it ended up with us going higher in the company. And I'll escape me talking to one of the directors and saying, look, I can't make this work the way that he is asking for it because ultimately I believe what he's asking for is wrong. And the conclusion was the director agreed with me luckily, and we ended up making it work with a studio background.

Raymond: 30:40 Oh, okay. Okay. I see. Yeah, that can be, uh, something that, you know, if you can't fix it on set, I would imagine that most people would try to, would not know what to do. So. So thank you for sharing.

GFWilliams: 30:53 Yeah. And it's, it's ultimately about your relationship with the client. And just dealing with that because there's always a solution. It may not be the solution you want, but there is always a solution.

Raymond: 31:07 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, so we were talking earlier about kind of those first photos that we took in the, in the driveway. You said that you saw some of your first worker earlier today when you were looking at those photos, you had said that he was like, Oh wow, I'm glad that I've progressed in my skills that I've gotten a good bit better. What are some of the mistakes that you saw in those photos that you see other amateur, um, automotive photographers making?

GFWilliams: 31:36 I think you can break it down into different sections. Um, so you take composition and lighting as probably the two things and then you've got the technical aspects as well. Um, in terms of composition, I always try and make it so the car within the frame of the shot has a bit of space around it because your client might want the crop. Um, but also just generally, I think it's a bit more visually pleasing and you don't want a car right next to the edge of frame, that kind of thing. It doesn't look nice. And I think general composition, you just over time, I've got a bit, I've got a better, I basically, I know what will work, what doesn't. Whereas when I was first starting, I would experiment and things, so I didn't know what worked and whatever. And because of that, some of them didn't, hadn't my opinion what works and what doesn't might have changed as well.

Raymond: 32:41 Yeah. So it's important to go out there and take a lot of bad photographs at first.

GFWilliams: 32:47 Yeah. Yeah. Ultimately you won't learn unless you go out there and take lots of photos. Yeah. So you've got that from the composition on the lighting. Um, I think when most people start with lighting, they go a bit over the top. I think we're all guilty of that. Um, I certainly was. So that's, that's not great. One thing I say to people is when your lighting, certainly with cars, I don't know what it's like with other aspects of photography, it's the shadows and what you're not lighting because that creates shape and ultimately you should be trying to show the shape of the car or your surroundings by using light. And when you're using flash you've got total control of that in theory. So you should be able to get it absolutely spot on. So that was an area where I've certainly improved where for an example, before if I was liking the side of the car, I would just have let the side of the car full on.

GFWilliams: 33:57 It's a flat panel. Now I would go from up high for instance, which means you can see the gradients of the shadow across the door, which shows that there's a shape in it. And that's just practice and knowing what works. And I think I get a better blend between ambient areas and the lit areas. Now that it looks a bit more natural. And to me, if someone can't tell whether it's natural light or Flash, I've done a good job. Right. And, well, it's before you could definitely tell it was flash because the car was popping off the frame. That might correct looked a bit like,

Raymond: 34:40 and I try and avoid that now. Sure. So how important was learning off camera flash for you? Like right in the beginning?

GFWilliams: 34:47 It's an essential to understand how it works. Um, because I mean, you never know when you're gonna need it. Yeah. Like it's rarely for anything professional, whether that's magazines onwards, you need it and you need to understand that and I think that opens a lot of creative potential as well.

Raymond: 35:10 Perfect. Perfect. So you as an automotive photographer who kind of specializes in supercars have had, um, a lot of opportunities to photograph some beautiful cars that people would have no opportunity to be able to do so. But I'm sure that you have a dream car in a dream location, uh, that you're just dying to shoe. What would that be for you?

GFWilliams: 35:34 That's a really hard question because I felt like I, every time I come up with one, I tend to make it happen and I'm not, is my aim, whatever. I come up with an idea of something I want to do like that. Um, I loved shooting stuff in the desert and I think just interesting areas in America, certainly. Um, like shooting in death valley was a dream for me and I did it with a Bentley a couple of years ago. Uh, and shooting in the desert out in the Middle East with supercars and putting them in the sand where there's such a juxtaposition between them. I love that kind of thing. And then one that I achieved the other day when I was in la, there was a location called lower grande, which is probably the most overused location in la, but I really wanted to shoot that. So now I have, and it terms of cars really, and I, it sounded bad to say this, I've kind of shot everything I would want to

Raymond: 36:42 up to this point. Right. Who knows what's going to happen in the future.

GFWilliams: 36:45 Yeah. So what's exciting for me is when you cause come out and when I'm the first one to shoot them, that's super duper exciting for me. I've got one next week actually, which is a car no one knows about at this stage, which I'm shooting, which is going to be the global release of it. And that is the ultimate excitement of my dog when you get to do a massive job like that. So that's awesome. Congratulations. Thank you. Got It. Got To do it. Well,

Raymond: 37:15 yeah. Well, I mean just by, by looking at your work, I can tell that you're, you know, you're competent, you're very creative, you're not going to screw it up. I'm not worried about it. If you were, if you were worried about that, you know, I'm not worried about that at all. Um, George, I really want to be mindful of your time. I really appreciate you coming on here, sharing everything that you did today and just helping out the listeners kind of understand automotive photography a little bit better than what they did before. Uh, your talk. So, uh, before I let you go, can you let the listeners know where they can find you online and where they can follow and just drool over all of your photos?

GFWilliams: 37:52 Of course. So if you want to have the nicest look at my favorite work, then go to GF williams.net and go to the portfolio. Have a look through there. That's my favorite work personally. Um, if you go onto the retouching section as well, you can see some nights before afters, which it seems to always be quite popular. And then if you're on Instagram, going to act GF Williams and you will see whatever my latest work is on that.

Raymond: 38:24 Perfect. George, again, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and I'm really excited to keep up with you and then all of your future automotive work and I can't wait to see what you're working on next.

GFWilliams: 38:34 Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.

Raymond: 38:37 As somebody who's, uh, my car has been in the shop now for three weeks because the dealership is just, you know, I just hate going to a dealership anyway. Um, my, my, uh, the sink rose in my transmission went out. Not that that matters to this podcast, but anyway, after this interview, uh, I got really excited to go out and, uh, you know, just try something new, photograph my car and uh, just see what happens. You know, I love interviewing other photographers of, of different genres because it, uh, it's really the best way to grow it is the best way to grow. And it's by trying new forms of photography to, uh, you know, to find out what it is that you like and then transfer those skills into what it is that you do or what it is that you love. So I've really been itching to get my car back and hopefully by the time you hear this, I will have my car back.

Raymond: 39:25 But I t I doubt it anyway. Um, I want to know, are you going to go out and photograph your car? It, you know, you don't have to have a supercar like George was saying in his interview, any car will work. It really, uh, it, as long as you add the right context to the photo. And you know, you make the car the hero, you're going to get a great shot. But for me, I think my biggest takeaway in this episode was just how, how shooting with intention grew George's presence in his market incredibly fast. You know, from the beginning, he knew that he wanted to photograph cars, so he didn't mess around with portraits or landscapes because he knew what he wanted to shoot and then he went for it. And as a result, he became established rather quickly, honestly. So I'm not saying that you need to know what sort of photography that you want to shoot is right now.

Raymond: 40:23 Right? You don't have to, in fact, I think that it's best to go out there and taste everything and shoot for free until you know what it is that you want to shoot, what it is that gives you that passion, you know? And then once you figure that out, go all in and that's it. All right. So I just wanted to let you know next week I have a huge announcement, uh, that I'm making all about the official launch of auto two amazing, which is my course guaranteed to teach you how to shoot manual in 30 days or less. And I'm making an announcement that I, I, I honestly can't even believe what I've lined up for those who sign up for the course. It is going to be incredible and I know that you're going to get a ton of value out of it. So if you wanna know more, join me back here next week where I will share all of the juicy details with you. So that is it for this week though. All right. Until next week, I want you to get

out. I want you to keep shooting. I want you to focus on yourself and I want you to be safe. That's it. All right, I love you all.

Outro: 41:37 If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.

BPP 155: Emily Brunner - Performance Dance Photography

Emily Brunner is a Performance dance photographer from Philadelphia PA who says She loves dance photography because of the way it allows us to see the movement, the lines, and the power in a way that we cant with our own eyes. Today she talks about the 1 trait you need to master to be great at dance photography.

Become A Premium Member is access to more in-depth questions that help move you forward!

In This Episode You'll Learn:

• When Emily got her first camera

• How she started shooting dance even though she didn’t dance when she was younger

• What goes into creating dance photography

• The different types of performance dance photography

• How much posing and directing the photographer does

• How important focal length is to dance photography

• A simple trick that will make the dancer look better immediately

• How to choose which lens to use when photographing dance photography

• The best way to photograph a dance performance

• Signs of an amateur dance photographer

• A common misconception people have about dance photography

Premium Members Also Learn:

• How Emily booked her first dance client

• Who hires the dance photographer

• The best way to sell photos online to parents

• Emilys advice on how much products to offer when starting out

Resources:

• Philadelphia Dance Photographer Emily Brunner’s website

• Emily Bruner on Facebook

• Emily Bruner on Instagram

Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

Full Interview Transcript:

Raymond: 00:00 Hey Raymond here from the beginning photography podcast. Today we're talking all about performance and dance photography. So let's get into it.

Intro: 00:08 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfield, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raymond interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now, with you as always, husband, father, Home brewer, La Dodger Fan, and Indianapolis wedding photographer, Raymond Hatfield. Welcome

Raymond: 00:37 Back to today's interview of the beginner photography podcast. As always, I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield, and I'm just happy to be here today. Today is going to be an interview, which is a, which is very fun and something that I actually have not done before. So you're going to hear me struggle to find the right questions. But I think, I think that that's important for me to, to tell you right now because that's okay. That's okay. There's, there's so many different types of photography that even as you know, I want you to know that as being a quote unquote professional photographer, that doesn't mean that I know everything about photography. That's why I started this podcast so that I could learn more about photography and become a better photographer. There there's so many genres that there's just no way to know everything about everything.

Raymond: 01:25 So this is why I get to ask the, the professionals, the questions to learn. So I'm really excited for today's interview, but first I want to give a quick shout out to a recent a iTunes review. And this review came from Jair. She says, I have no, her review starts with, I haven't shot in auto sense. She says, I got the notion to search up podcasts while trying to choose from the millions of how to books on Amazon. And I'm so glad that I did. I spend a lot of time in my car for work and this podcast is taken me from shooting an auto to refusing to do so. Every podcast has a great tidbit of information that I didn't understand before and fantastic tips if you're looking to take your camera knowledge and photography skills from what to wow, you have to download this podcast now.

Raymond: 02:20 Jared, thank you so much for that. Five Star iTunes review. It really does mean the world to me, but I want you to know that it wasn't the podcast that did any of that. It is you, you know, you can hear, you know, whatever it is that you hear on the podcast, but that won't make you a better photographer. It's you who went out and you put what you learned into action and then you grew from it. So again, Jared, thank you so much for leaving your review leaving a review for the podcast. It only takes a minute of your time and it really does help the podcast grow. So today's interview is, is kind of like I mentioned earlier, is going to be a good one, and it's one of those episodes that even if you don't photograph you know, this, this types or dance photography, I think that you're still gonna find it incredibly interesting.

Raymond: 03:07 You know, for me, just hearing how Dan, how different dance is to shooting a wedding like, like I'm used to. And also just the amount of attention to detail that has to be paid while shooting is incredible. So, as always, I have saved a portion of our interview that focuses on the business side of photography, just for premium members who want to actually make money from their cameras. So today premium members will hear who it is that hires the performance, a photographer, and then who pays them to different people, how to set up an online gallery to sell your photos and then what products to offer your clients and how to price them. So if you want to learn all of these things and all the business tips from past interview guests, then I want to invite you to become a premium member of the beginner photography podcast.

Raymond: 04:02 And if you want to do so, you can by just heading over to BeginnerPhotographyPodcast.com and clicking the premium membership button at the top of the page. So that's it. All right, let's go ahead and get on into today's interview right now with Emily Bruner. Emily Bruner is a performance dance photographer from Philadelphia Pencil who says that she loves dance photography because of the way that it allows us to see the movement, the lines, and the power of dance in a way that we can't with our own eyes. Emily, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Emily Bruner: 04:35 Thank you so much for having me. Raymond,

Raymond: 04:37 I am super excited to talk to you today for a few reasons. One of them being is that over the past few months we have become closer within a group of photographers where we kind of talk about our goals and getting there. And I've seen, I've seen you already just in the past few months grow your business and it's, it's, it's something that I had no ideas about before getting into photography. I haven't interviewed somebody who does dance photography. So, and just out of happenstance, somebody was asking about dance photography the other day in the beginning, photography podcast, Facebook group. So there is a need for people like you in the world. So again, I'm really excited to talk to you about you and your journey, but before we get there, can you share with me and the listeners how you got your start in photography in the first place?

Emily Bruner: 05:26 So my start in photography really came about from becoming a parent. I wanted photos of my kids to share with my family who lived far away. And I just immediately loved how capturing my life allowed me to see it in a different way and allowed me to share, share what was going on in my life. I remember being a kid and enjoying photography with my parents cameras. So maybe I could say I've always been a photographer, but I got really, really into it when had kids. So maybe about from about 14 years ago and I just wanted to learn everything I could about it.

Raymond: 06:03 So what was it, obviously you wanted to capture stuff to send to your family, but why weren't just the photos on, say, an iPhone good enough for you?

Emily Bruner: 06:12 I wanted them to be beautiful. I you know, I would see other photos that I would love and I thought, I want my photos to look like that. So I guess I just could, I, from the beginning, I could tell the difference between a snapshot and a photo taken with intention. And I knew that I wanted my photos to be, to have that intention behind them. And I also knew that if I was taking photos, I just, I wanted to learn about it. I wanted it to become something that I could enjoy and improve upon so that it can be something that's fulfilling for myself rather than just a snapshot that I didn't think twice about it.

Raymond: 06:49 Right. Of course, of course. So when that time came to, to get your first camera, did you already have an idea that you wanted a specific DSLR to get into? Or was it just, let's go down to Costco and buy, buy the first camera that we see?

Emily Bruner: 07:03 No, I mean, I was my husband bought my first DSLR for me as a Christmas gift. So before that I had had a little, you know, like Canon powershot digital cameras. Before that I had a film camera that had interchangeable lenses that my parents had bought from me. But my first like real camera in the digital age, my husband picked out for me and it was a canon and I still shoot with Canons today.

Raymond: 07:31 Yeah. So getting the camera, when you first got it out of the box, I want to know if you had to judge yourself on a scale from zero to 10, zero being you had no knowledge of photography whatsoever, this was your first time ever seeing a camera and 10 being world-class. Where would you say that your skill level was?

Emily Bruner: 07:53 I would say my skill level was maybe around a three or four. I had taken photos. You know, I'd use my parents film cameras when I was a kid. I never shot in manual. I remember trying once to shoot in manual when I was at Niagara Falls because I knew that I wanted to get this, you know, the blurred water. Yeah. I didn't have a clue how to do it. This is what the phone camera when I was in college and when I got the photos back, they were terrible. I mean it's blurry and they were like blue and purple. And so that was my only time that I ever really tried to shoot in manual before. Like there was no internet than really, sorry. I had no knowledge whatsoever. Nowhere to research how to do it. So I would say that when I got that first DSL out of the box, I knew just a tiny, tiny bit, but, but really very little. Most of what I knew was more along the lines of composition rather than technical knowledge of how to use the camera.

Raymond: 08:54 So how did you go about learning photography and I'm assuming that you are shooting in manual now, is that correct?

Emily Bruner: 09:01 I do, yeah. Pretty much. I usually shoot manual unless the lighting situation around me is changing super rapidly and I can't keep up with changing my settings.

Raymond: 09:10 You're right, of course. So, so how did you go about learning manual once you got this? This new a digital camera from your husband.

Emily Bruner: 09:18 So when I got the new digital camera for my husband, I actually shot with it for several years just with the kit is not really an automatic. So really focusing on the composition, capturing the moment in my perspective, you know, any, anything that I could do within my own mind and control with my own hands. That's kind of what I was focusing on. But then I wanted to, I wanted to do more and I researched and I realized I needed a better lens. So that was like my first step into really getting super serious into photography. I got a new lens. What Lens was that? It was a sigma 30 millimeter, one point f 1.4. So kind of just went all the way I did. Yeah. And I loved it. It really transformed my photos in a big way.

Raymond: 10:04 Yeah. Coming from the kid lens, I would imagine that it would just be a completely different experience.

Emily Bruner: 10:09 Yeah. I loved it. It was a, it was a great purchase. And even though I rarely use it now cause it's for sort of like about the crop sensor camera and now I shoot with a full frame camera, I don't want to sell the lens because it's kind of like meaningful to me. But yeah, so that, that was my first, my first like real serious, like dive into it. And then I again, I knew that I wanted to learn, learn more. When I, when I got that first great lens and I saw the difference, I realized, Gosh, if I really learned how to use my camera, I bet I could do even more. And it was at that point that I I purchased an online course to dive in and just learn as much as I could about my camera.

Raymond: 10:49 So you didn't even go like the book route or Youtube tutorials? It was just I'm gonna jump head first into an online course.

Emily Bruner: 10:57 Yeah. yeah, I did. I, they just, if it's my personality, I don't tend to read much. And there's too much of a rabbit hole than youtube videos because you d I needed somebody to like guide me really specifically keep me on track.

Raymond: 11:13 Yeah. Shit, you, this is exactly what you need to do. That makes sense. That makes sense. A, I too love online courses for, for just for that exact reason. They're so hyper focused and you don't have to go hunting around for literally there's like 24 hours of videos uploaded to youtube every minute or something. So trying to find the right ones is insane and it takes a long time. So can you share what course it was that that you signed up for and how did you, how did you like it?

Emily Bruner: 11:39 Yeah, so I signed up for Shultz photo schools, a photo fix class and I really loved it. I just completely loved it. It, it was everything I wanted it to be. It told me it was teaching me all the things that I kind of knew I wanted to learn and it did didn't in a really focused way. It was a great experience doing that.

Raymond: 11:59 [Inaudible]. So at the time you were still focused on just photographing your children. Yes. So at what point did a, I want you to tell me a little bit about the dance photography side. At what point did this come along in your life?

Emily Bruner: 12:13 Well my oldest daughter, who's 14 now, she started dancing ballet when she was four. And so for those first few years I was just taking kind of like snapshots of her. But she really got into it. Quickly. It became obvious that she loved it and she started performing more and more. And I wanted beautiful photos of her performing on stage. And I didn't, if I could have hired someone to do it, I would have to be honest. But there is, I just didn't, there was nobody I could hire to take the photos that I wanted of her. So I said, you know what, I'm gonna learn how to do it. I'm going to do it.

Raymond: 12:50 So when, so, okay. So, cause that's a big jump from, I'm going to photograph my kids to now going into a various like specialized area of photography. So did you go, you photographed your, your daughter, these photos were beautiful. Did other people see them? Like what, what gave you the spark to, to pursue it even further?

Emily Bruner: 13:11 Yeah. it was really just sharing my photos. So it was a gradual progression. It wasn't like snap overnight. My photos or for performing on stage are beautiful. I had to learn a lot of violent, do it like a trial and error and learn that way. And she, she dances so much. I had a lot of opportunities to practice and figure out what I needed to do. But once, once I got some photos that I was proud of, I, I, I shared them on Facebook, the, the photos of my daughter. I shared them on Facebook and then the photos that I took of other dancers in the performances, if, if I knew the parents, I would give them the photos. And then the school I gave them, the photos that I took as well. And really me giving those photos to the school was what prompted dance photography to become a business for me.

Raymond: 13:59 And how so did they ask you

Emily Bruner: 14:01 When you asked me? Yeah. They said, oh, these are wonderful. These are great. We didn't know you were a photographer. Would you be willing to photograph our upcoming recital and sell those photos to the,

Raymond: 14:12 Ah, I love it. I love it. So this just kind of fell in your lap. I mean obviously with, with lots of practice and, and, and passion for that fell into your lap. But so let's talk a little bit about, a little bit more about the dance photography itself, because there's really two different types of dance photography. There's the performance and then there's portraits. So if dance photography is more than just photographing people dancing, can you explain more about what else there is to this?

Emily Bruner: 14:43 Well, with dance photography in particular it's, it's really a collaboration between the photographer and the dancer. Even if the is in a performance and doesn't quite realize they're being photographed, it's still kind of a collaboration. That's their art. The photography is our arts. And in the same way that we as photographers would kind of be horrified. Like, imagine, you know, you're, you're your worst image or a photo you take it's blurry, dark. The white balance is Yucky. Imagine if that photo was shared all over the Internet by your friends and family, you would be embarrassed. So in the same regard, when we're taking a photograph of a dancer, they want to look their best. They want their techniques to look as good as it possibly can. So as photographers, we need to be very, very careful that the photos that we are sharing of them that we're giving to them or selling to them or, or sharing with our friends and family in that, in those pictures, the dancers technique is good, that their toes are pointed, that their feet are nice and straight, but their legs are straight. You know that their shoulders aren't all 10 stuff, that they that they have a nice expression on their face. All these things, all these things that they worked so hard for and they've trained for a, we need to make sure that our photos are showing that showing the dancers to the best of their abilities.

Raymond: 16:06 So that, that's more of that performance side. What about, what about the portrait side, because first of all, is this, is is doing the portrait something that still requires a stage or, or does it require a studio? Where do these portraits typically happen?

Emily Bruner: 16:25 Yeah, so poor, I mean a dance portrait where you were, it's more like you, you know, just you and the dancer and you're taking the time for them to pose and you're working on their pose and trying to take a beautiful photo. You're creating the photos that can happen anywhere. In my experience, we never do that on the stage to rent out a stage or find a stage that's available to us to do that. It's just not really feasible. Right. So in my experience doing dance portraits, we would be doing that either outside. So some of it similar to any other portrait, finding a place that has nice light and a nice backdrop. And then for a dancer in particular and it also needs to have a nice and safe ground for them to work on and stand on and dance on outside is an option on streets in parks.

Emily Bruner: 17:16 Really just anything that you would do with a normal regular just portrait session or you can do it in a studio and by studio, I don't literally mean you need to have like a photography studio, but find a room that's big enough. You need a pretty big space to photograph a dancer. I find a room that's big enough and either bring in your own backdrop or use the walls in the room and a, when you're photographing a dancer inside, you're really gonna need to bring in some light. You're going to need to start using strobes to get enough light to photograph them cause there's so much less light inside.

Raymond: 17:52 Right, right. I want to talk a little bit more about the posing side though. Cause this is something that I feel like so many beginners already have a hard time with enough for just regular people. Right now we have to deal with somebody who is used to doing something in an exact way. Are you, are you manipulating that at all or are you, can you kind of walk me through, through that whole process there, how you get somebody in the pose?

Emily Bruner: 18:19 Yeah, so we are manipulating it in a way with, with dance photography, we're taking something that's like four dimensional, you know, there, there's time and then there, then there's the three dimensions of space. We're taking that and we're compressing it into two dimensions. So I'm taking time out of it as one thing. But then taking the three dimension dimensional pose and transforming into two dimensions makes it a little bit tricky. So when we're posing someone a dancer, I start with a dancer and ask them like, what are your ideas? What sort of poses do you want to do? There's all dancers have different abilities, so we want to make sure that whatever we're trying to photograph for them, that it's something that they're good at, something that they feel strong and safe doing. So we never want to push them into doing something that we think is amazing but might be beyond their comfortability.

Emily Bruner: 19:10 Yeah. So we, I always start with them and ask for some inspiration ideas and they always, they always have ideas. They always know what they want to do. So we start with that and a, and then I have them do it, do the movement or do the post for me a few times and I look at it and I'm looking at it trying to decide what the best angle is going to be for the camera. So if they're doing an Airbus, that's where their, their leg like goes back in the air behind them straight. Their leg is straight. If we do that, so their leg is pointing behind them, like away from the camera, I'm not going to see that back leg at all. It's just going to look like they're standing and they have one leg and that's not what we want. So for we're photographing and Airbus, we want to see that leg.

Emily Bruner: 19:57 We want that leg to look nice and long. So we want that leg parallel to the camera. So those are the kinds of things that we're thinking about at the beginning of a pose. And then once we have them positions, we might turn them ever so slightly to get their leg to look as good as it can possibly look. Then we start shooting. And we might tweak it a little bit as we go. I, when I'm shooting them, I wouldn't have a nice low camera angle that makes them look tall. It makes their legs look nice and long. So in that regard, it's a lot different from, from a portrait of a person, you know, more photographing people. We often went to their eyes to look nice and vague. So we want to be slightly above eye level. But with dancers we want to get lower so that we're not distorting their body in an unflattering way. We want their legs to look nice and long.

Raymond: 20:46 Yeah, man, that, that's really interesting. I never,

Emily Bruner: 20:48 Never really thought about it like that. And it, it's, so obviously before I interview, I was looking at your website, I was looking at your portfolio and I was looking at your images and there's kind of this very comfortable feeling as if I'm, all the dancers were on stage and even like for your portraits. That's Kinda like why I thought that the camera was so low because we as an audience would be sitting lower. But that makes so much more sense that it just looks better on camera to, to accentuate those legs. Okay. Cool. Tricks of the trade fair. Yeah. I love it. I love it. Yeah.

Raymond: 21:23 So what if what if you were to show up in a situation where okay, let me rephrase the question. Are the poses that you are asking these dancers to get into, are they just holding like a, I was going to say a pose, but like a, like a, like a dance move that they are used to or, or are you trying to get them to do, to do more? Did that, did that question make sense?

Emily Bruner: 21:47 Yes, I think that makes sense. So the, I'm with classical dance with, with ballet, there's really there's really like a lot of sort of standard poses that we would do with modern contemporary dance. There's going to be a lot more improvisation going on, but in a, in a photo session with a dancer we're typically working with, with some sort of oppose something that's kind of established in it that is often in pieces that are going to be choreographed for the dancers. So these are things we're not, we're not usually starting with something that's never been done before. We're calling, we're starting with something that already exists and people are familiar with. And we might tweak it a little bit. You know, we might rotate the body a little bit or do something different with the arms or the direction in which they're looking with their head to change it up a little bit.

Emily Bruner: 22:41 But, but there's, there's standards with dance just like there are with, with music performance, you know, with playing an instrument or photography, there's, there are standards that we, that we need to stick to. And when the dancers are posing, I'm not really asking them to like hold a pose. Because dance dance is his movements and if, if they're stationary and trying to pull hold a pose for a photo, it's going to not look right. It's going to look kind of tense. So I think of the poses that we do as movements and I asked my dancers, I say, you don't need to hold that for me. I need you, you know, to, to get into it and then go out of it the same way that you would in a performance or in a class. And then I'm timing the shot to capture at capture it at the apex of the movement that they're doing.

Raymond: 23:32 Wow. How many times do you think you have to have them Redo a move before? Yeah, before you nail the shot.

Emily Bruner: 23:39 Sometimes it's really like we sometimes same size who get it on the first shot. Sometimes we get it just, you know, two or three other times we work it for 20 minutes. Wow. It really just depends on what we're trying to do and the dancer and how quick my reflexes are that day.

Raymond: 23:59 So okay. That was, that was a good amount about posing there. And I think, I think that it might I think that I was looking at dance photography kind of all wrong possibly because I am just so uneducated in the field completely. That to me it looks so much more difficult, right. In terms of, in terms of the posing where I said that a lot of beginners have a hard time enough posing regular people. Now we have to, now we have to post answers, but if these dancers already have some sort of base where of moves that they already get into, would you say that it that that is helpful to to you as the photographer?

Emily Bruner: 24:39 Very, very helpful. Yeah. And especially for me, I am not a dancer and I was not a dancer. So everything that I've learned about dance I've learned over the last 14 years from watching my daughter and and, and then taking a dance class myself, which was very humbling. But I wanted to learn more about it. So it is, it is not with older, more experienced dancers. Like knowing how to pose them isn't, is not quite as difficult as it seems, but knowing how to recognize in your photo that they're doing the pose correctly or that maybe they're doing it correctly, but that the, your camera angle is flattering and that we have them turned in such a way that it's showing them, showing their lines, literal lines of their legs and their feet and their arms, that it's making all of those look as beautiful as possible. That's the tricky part. And now younger, younger dancers you know, kids who are maybe like eight, nine, 10 years old, that's going to be a lot, a lot harder honestly to, to photographs them. And because I'm, we're as photographer is going to need to give them a lot more guidance.

Raymond: 25:46 Oh, I see. So that's where being more educated in dance in the movement would, would really help. So yeah, we're talking a lot about lines and the importance of, of kind of showing that power and stability. I guess. So how important of a role does focal lengths play in, in your, in, in capturing these images? Because a wide angle lens is really gonna Distort lines. So can you, can you talk a little bit about that?

Emily Bruner: 26:15 Yes. Yeah. I prefer to use the, the longest focal length that I can. So somewhere in the range of 70 to 200. I really if at all possible, I don't want to shoot any wider than 70 millimeters. This is one on my full frame camera. Because you're right, wider angles are going to completely distort their shape. And for a dancer where their body shape and movement is their art, if we stored that it's really not flattering to them and it's not a very honest way to show what they're doing. It doesn't really show what they're doing very well. So when I'm inside, I usually am using 70 millimeters because that I'm inside the spaces that I have access to inside are just not big enough to allow me to go all the way to 200 millimeters. Right. If I'm shooting a performance, however, where we're in a big auditorium, I am often shooting at 200 millimeters

Raymond: 27:15 Just because you have that extra space. Yeah, yeah, sure. So I'd imagine obviously being that far back, needing that telephoto Lens do you have any recommendations for anybody just getting into a photography who wants to start dance, who maybe maybe the 70 to 200 to eight is a little bit of a stretch. Do you have any recommendations for, for what else they could use?

Emily Bruner: 27:36 So if we're talking about photography of performances, so in inside the theater really you really are going to need the wide open aperture of like a 70 to 200 lens or a 24 to 70 lens year to, to have enough light to capture them. The movement, yes. But with dance there's also a lot of moments where people are not moving, you know, where they are. Just taking a second in between poses to not even transitioned, but at the end of the pose, or at the beginning of a movement at the beginning of a piece that they're starting at the end of a piece there, there are times where people are not moving or they're not moving very fast. So even if you don't have a super fancy Lens, you could, you could use your, you could use your Kit Lens, you know, and zoom in all the way to 55 millimeters. Or if you have a kit lens that goes all the way to 300 millimeters, you could, you could use that and you're just gonna need to compensate for the, the, the more stopped down, closed down appetizer and increase your ISO to make up for that. So when we hit lines, your shutter speeds going to be a little slower. It's going to be, it's going to be slow enough that if a dancer jumps across the stage, then there'll be a little blurry,

Raymond: 28:51 A blur. Sure. So would you say to prioritize a faster aperture, say over longer reach of the focal length?

Emily Bruner: 29:01 That's a good question. It depends on what you're doing. If you have a young, you know, a dancer, if one of your kids is dancing and they're doing a lot of performances I would say in a performing inside, I would say maybe prioritizing aperture might might be a good thing. You know, 50 millimeters will be okay. Like if you have like a 24 millimeter lens or even 35, you might end up with a little distortion, but you can scoot further back if you're not right on top of them. Taking a picture with a wide angle lens. If you're a little further back, they're not in there in the center of the photo, they're not going to be as distorted as if you're, you know, right there taking a picture of them. Yeah. Photos of your dancer outside before or after her recital or his recital for example. And then, then you don't really need the [inaudible] quite as much because if you're outside and you have lots of light you don't necessarily need that big wide open aperture. So in that case, for the, a portrait outside of your dancer to celebrate the recital, I would say prioritize the longer focal length, use a longer focal length and get yourself download. Don't take the picture from up above kind of looking down at them so their heads big and their legs are tight.

Raymond: 30:12 Right. That's funny. Yeah, exactly. So obviously you wouldn't be able to do that in a, a in a performance setting. But during a performance setting, are you, are you running around from side to side during the actual performance? Like while parents are, are, are in the audience to capture these photos?

Emily Bruner: 30:33 No, no one should ever do that. I go to dress rehearsals. That's my secret. I you know, if I'm doing, if I'm a, a dance school asks me to do a job for them and to photograph their performance, I strongly suggest that I go to their drugs rehearsal rather than the performance. Because at the dress rehearsal I can move around and I can try different can't, you know, I can try some, some photos where I'm close to this stage. I can try somewhere in far back and capturing the whole stage and in the Lens. I do not, I'm not in favor of photographing during performances, both as a photographer cause that's just no fun. And as a audience member that's distracting. If you're a parent trying to take photos during the performance, you're missing the performance, taking photos and then for the dancers on stage it can be distracting. It can be very distracting if they see somebody moving around or walking around. They might, might think somebody's leaving their performance. If you, one big thing about performance photography, if you are taking a photo during the performance and even if you're taking the photos during a dress rehearsal, turn your flash off. Don't no flash, no flash.

Raymond: 31:44 That's why you got to get that faster lens. Yeah. I it's, it's funny cause once, once we had a Charlie and we started going to these, you know, like little school performances that they put on, they're not dances or anything but just, you know, like little kindergarten songs that they sing for all the parents and you know, you watch all the parents not watch their kids but just watch their phones, watching them watch. They just watched their kids through their phones, you know what I mean? And a while I like to, you know, pull out the phone to take one photo just to kind of remember the moment and use it as my one second a day. It's, I can imagine that it's very, it as a dance in the dance setting that you would really want these photos of your child being in a situation doing something that, that, that not only are they a lot of time working on, but also you don't get time to go see it very often unless it's a performance. So having a photographer run around during the performance would a would, would just be very distracting. It would be very distracting. So

Emily Bruner: 32:55 It's going to be to get ingredients, I would assume so. And then if you're sitting in a seat, tried to take photos from your seat, you're not going to be that great. You know, there's going to be like heads in front of you. You're probably like not at the angle or the perspective that you want. So just go to the dress rehearsal and ask, ask permission, ask the school, Hey, can I, can I go to the dress rehearsal and, and take, take some photos. Then if the school, if the school has an open dress rehearsal where they allow parents to come in, they would so much. Rather you take photos in then during the performance, a lot of performances we'll, we'll say the beginning, you know, please put away all recording devices. Okay. Yeah. Whether it's photos or videos. So yeah, dress rehearsals. It's the perfect time to take your photos.

Raymond: 33:44 Yeah. More weddings need signs that say please put away your recording devices. I shared a, I shot a photo on the, in the Facebook group in the beginning, photography podcast, Facebook group of of a guest at a wedding that I was just at who I couldn't believe it, like, just got right in front of the eye as like the bride was coming down and you know, you, you missed the shot. It's like, what, what do you do? You know, you always got to prepare for these things and get out of the way. But I mean it was just so blatantly right in the middle of everything and it was just like the brightest yellow neon dress that you've ever seen in your life. It was, it was atrocious. But I totally went off on a tangent there, so I apologize. I want to talk, I want to go back to your first client. I want to know how, when you decided to start charging for this, when you decided, oh, maybe, maybe I could do this. How did they find you? Were you nervous? How did the session turn out?

Speaker 4: 34:48 Hey Raymond here, and if you're listening to this, you are listening to the free version of today's interview. If you want to hear more from today's guest about the business of photography, consider becoming a premium member every week. Guests answer questions about products, pricing packages, and so much more that will help you your growing photography business thrive. This is the next logical step to join head over to begin on photography podcast.com and click the premium membership button at the top of the page.

Emily Bruner: 35:17 Yeah, and I think, I think most people who are buying things from you understand that you are not Walmart. You know, they, yeah, I really do. At least in my experience, people, people understand there's a difference.

Raymond: 35:29 Yeah, that's a hard thing. But I'm, I'm glad that you shared that. I'm glad that you shared that. Again, that's another huge for beginners to get over. Whenever I hear any sort of question about pricing, I know that's going to help a lot of people. Can you kind of share, now that you've been shooting dance for a while? I'm sure that you've seen a lot of dance photos. I know personally that you've taken dance photography workshops. What are some things, what are some signs of an amateur dance photographer?

Emily Bruner: 35:59 Okay, so some signs of an amateur dance photographer are having the camera perspective where the camera is high and looking kind of like, like maybe the camera is at face level or maybe like chest level or maybe even higher. Especially for the little kids even like above them. Using, using a wide angle lens, especially if you're, if you're close up taking a photo of somebody. And then probably the, the, the really big thing is if the dancers not doing the pose correctly, you know, if their, if their fluid is, is like sickle, the, which means it's sort of like, like turned in like this. If they're, if they're doing a jump in their toes or not pointed, but their, their toes are kind of like straight out up or just kinda like halfway pointed. If a knee is been twin, it shouldn't be been. So if the dancers technique is not correct in the photo even if it's a beautiful photo with the most beautiful light, you know, and the, it was gorgeous background ever. It's not a good photo. So I would say those three things are what would tell me that it's an amateur or somebody who hasn't yet studied and learned how to, to take some really great dance photos.

Raymond: 37:12 Yeah. What I'm learning is that this form of photography is very, very, very detail oriented and requires a very a trained eye from the photographer. And it is, I think it's great to hear that you didn't even start off dancing like as a child that you got into this much later after just watching your own daughter which is kinda like goes to show that even if you didn't grow up in dance, you can still pursue something like this and be successful. So

Emily Bruner: 37:42 Yes, we can hope we can always learn. I mean, you know, until our last day, we're always learning. And this is if, you know, if you were like me and you, you didn't learn about dance earlier in your life, you can, you can learn now I took a dance class. I, I asked dancers around me, I would show them photos and I would say, what's good about this photo? What's bad about it? I'll go to workshops, watch youtube videos of dance classes where you, you see the instructor teaching the class, observe any dance classes that you have the opportunity to observe. Cause when you're observing a class, you hear the teacher correcting the students. So you learn what's proper and what is not. There's, there's a lot of fun ways to learn about it.

Raymond: 38:28 I never would have thought about that. I never, I never would have thought about that is so smart. I would have just googled photography tips on Youtube. But the fact that just like, well, let's just see what a class entails is your, that's so smart. I'm not, I'm not a very smart person. This is why I like having these conversations with others because now I get these other perspectives. But it's awesome. What do you think would be something that somebody would be surprised to find out about being a dance photographer?

Emily Bruner: 39:03 Hmm. Oh Gosh, I don't know. Something people would be surprised to find out about being a dance photographer. Maybe, maybe that you need to have like wardrobe supplies on hand. You need scissors to trim away like loose strings. You need safety pins. Because the, the costuming like what they're wearing. The wardrobe is also an important part of the photos. So you kind of need to have just some backup supplies. You know, and there's, there's also a lot of retouching that often needs to happen because a lot of dams, photos, there's a lot of skin showing arms, legs, spaces. You know, when people have bruises on their legs, maybe they have a line around their ankle from where they were wearing socks earlier in the day. And it, it's me and they, they take the sock off before the photo session and it takes several hours for that. That like, I don't know, you call that line around the ankle to go away. Yeah, it's still there. You know, you have to edit that out later. So editing dance photos because of all the skin retouching and, and the wardrobe is pretty intense.

Raymond: 40:18 That just all goes back to paying, you know, having that, that strong attention to detail. I love that. Well Emily I wanna thank you for your time. You've been very gracious and you have answered every question that I have thrown your way and then sound my ass way more questions than I even had written down and you answered them all wonderfully. I know that the listeners gonna get a lot out of this interview with you, so, so thank you. Before I let you go, can you share with the listeners where they can find some of your work online?

Emily Bruner: 40:48 Yeah, so my website is www dot Emily Bruner, photography.com and Bruner is with two Ns, B, r. U. N. N. E. R. That's my website. And then I also have an Instagram and it's Emily Bruno photography and the Facebook page for my business, Emily, Bruna photography. So they all found the same name. So you can find me in any of those places. It's fine. The brand. Yeah. The local theater. Taking photos of dancers.

Raymond: 41:19 Yeah. [inaudible] Well, again, Emily, I want to thank you so much for coming on and I always love keeping up with you and your stories and even on Instagram. I love you a little weekly stories that you share on there as well. So I forward to keeping up with you and and everything that you're doing.

Emily Bruner: 41:36 Thanks so much Raymond.

Raymond: 41:38 You know, like I said earlier, it really is amazing how much truly goes into proper dance photography. My biggest takeaway hands down was just the amount of collaboration and teamwork required to pull off incredible dance images. Because oftentimes, you know, on a wedding day when I shoot weddings, I pretty much tell the bride that just leave me alone. I mean, this is her day, you know, I want to capture what her day looked like. I don't want her to pay attention to me, to, you know, take time away from her friends and family because I'm, I'm the stranger at the wedding, you know? But in this setting, in this setting for Emily in dance photography, it was so great to hear you know, the other side and truly how much goes into a a working together. Just to pull off a great image. So Emily is actually in the beginning of photography podcast, Facebook group.

Raymond: 42:35 So feel free to share your biggest takeaway with her and I'm sure that you would be more than happy to answer any questions that you may have about dance. So if you're not already a part of the beginning photography podcast Facebook group, you can do so by just searching Facebook for beginner photography podcast and it'll, it'll show right up. You got to answer a few questions to be approved into the group, make sure that you're not trying to sell sunglasses or anything weird like that. And then you're in. So that is it for today's episode. Until next week, I want you to get out, keep shooting, focus on yourself and be safe. Alright, I love you all.

Outtro: 43:12 If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.

BPP 154: Kevin Mullins - True Documentary Wedding Photography

Kevin Mullins is a London Documentary wedding photographer in the truest form. Kevin has an incredible ability to capture rich stories in a single frame with next to no interaction. Today we clear up some misconceptions about what it means to be a documentary wedding photographer and some of the challenges he has to face.

Become A Premium Member is access to more in-depth questions that help move you forward!

In This Episode You'll Learn:

• How an article in a magazine convinced Kevin to leave his IT job to start shooting weddings

• Documentary wedding photographers that inspired Kevin

• The definition of documentary wedding photography and why most people get it wrong

• How Kevin interacts with his couples to best prepare them for the wedding day

• How to tell a story with documentary wedding photography

• A comon misconception of documentary wedding photography

• How much posed photos Kevin does at a wedding and his philosophy on group photos.

• Why Kevin does not use artificial light in low light

Premium Members Also Learn:

• How to convey the power of documentary photography in a world of bright airy popularity

• How to tell the story of a wedding through the wedding album

• How Kevin builds his documentary wedding photography packages

Resources:

• London Documentary wedding photographer Kevin Mullins website

• Kevin Mullins on Instagram

Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

Full Interview Transcript:

Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.

Raymond: 00:00 Hey Raymond here from the beginning of photography podcast, and today we're talking about documentary wedding photography was one of the best. Let's get into it.

Intro: 00:10 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfields, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raymon interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now with you as always, husband, father, home brewer, La Dodger Fan, an Indianapolis wedding photographer, Raymond Hatfield. Welcome back to this episode,

Raymond: 00:40 The beginner photography podcast. As always, I am Raymond, your host, and I wanted to start off today's episode with a big shout out for a iTunes review that we got in. This review comes from Ashley. Ashley says you can stop looking. You have found it a, the rest of her review says, this podcast helped motivate me into turning my dream of becoming a better photographer and building a business into a reality in the interviews. It is refreshing to hear that even photographers that are living their dreams did not get where they are right now overnight. This podcast is truly the best. Thank you so much Ashley for leaving that review in iTunes. I would, I would be so grateful if you are listening right now. If you haven't left the podcast, a review for you to leave a quick, quick review in whatever podcast player you were listening to.

Raymond: 01:33 And to Ashley's point, I think that all of this comes down to persistence, right? Is it all the photographers who I talked to just didn't get there overnight and like she says, it's all about persistence. It's all about once you start, just keep going, half the battle or 99% of the battle is just showing up. So if you just keep going, you're going to find that success. But if you are having trouble even just getting started, I wanted to invite you to take my online mini course called conquer your camera, where you will learn about the three most important aspects to photography and how to use your camera to conquer them. So if you want to learn more than you can a about the mini course, just head over to learn dot beginner photography podcast.com. Again, that is learn l e a r n.

Raymond: 02:19 Dot beginner photography podcast.com. So today's episode is with one of the world's best in his field and we clear up or he clears up rather a lot of the confusion about what it really means to be a documentary wedding photographer. And as always, I have cut out a portion of the interview. I've, it focuses on business just for premium members. So in today's the premium members are going to hear how to convey the power of documentary style to couples to to book for their wedding. We're going to hear Kevin's

approach to telling the story of a wedding day through the album and how it affects the way that he shoots on the wedding day and how Kevin structures his wedding packages for sale to work best for him. So if you want to become a premium member and hear all about the business side of photography, just head over to beginner photography, podcast.com and then click the premium membership link at the top of the page. So that is it. We're going to get into today's interview right now with Kevin Mullins. Today's guest is Kevin Mullins, a UK documentary wedding photographer in the truest form. Kevin has an incredible ability to be able to capture rich stories in a single frame with, with next to no interaction today. I'm really excited to chat about seeing the the bigger picture, as you might say. So Kevin, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Kevin Mullins: 03:42 No problem. Raymond, thank you very much for inviting me.

Raymond: 03:45 Of course you are a photographer who I am very excited to chat with not only being a fellow, a Fuji photographer, but I'm a photographer who I've been following for a long time almost since I started. And I think that it's just because of your approach that you take at weddings. I've heard you on other podcasts and I just Kinda love everything that you stand for. So today I'm really excited to have you share with the listeners kind of what is documentary photography. Cause I think that term gets skewed in many ways. And if anybody can talk to that point, it's going to be you. So before we get into that, can you share how you got your start in photography?

Kevin Mullins: 04:28 Oh man, it was a, it's quite a long story really, but I'll keep it short. I was what was it, 2007, 2008, something like that. I was not a photographer, never owned the camera at, didn't have any ambitions. We have to talk at all. I was working in it has a lot of talk for start date and five hours community and every day, two and a half hours each way was just a bit too much. And one day I picked up a magazine on a train, you know, one of those free magazines and it was an article about weddings, not photography, but at weddings. And I've just about to flip through it and like weddings had no interest to me whatsoever. And then I saw these little black and white pictures at the bottom from a photographer called Jeff Ascot, who you know, ended up becoming a huge inspiration.

Kevin Mullins: 05:17 And so I went home to my wife and I said, I'm going to do it. This is what I'm gonna do. I'm going to become a rep right away. Yeah. And she was like, well, you know, you hey, you don't want a camera. B, you've never taken pictures in your life and see, you really do not have the personality to be a wedding photographer. So, but that was it. And that's, that was the, the seed was so nan and I just kind of went with that and went on some workshops and stuff. And I think now I've done like 490 odd weddings 10 years later. So, yeah.

Raymond: 05:49 Oh my gosh. What, what was it that, what was it about those, those photos from Jeff that made you think like, I could do this, like, I want to

Kevin Mullins: 05:58 Do this. Yeah. It wasn't a case of I could do it. It was a case of wanted to. Yeah, that was, that's, that's, that's worth pointing out because I just loved, you know, I'd always admired documentary photography, but without really knowing it, you know, like we have the Sunday Times over here and the Sunday Times magazine is a very famous photo journalistically based magazine. And I'd always look at those images. Often they were about war and poverty and stuff, but, but it was always the photojournalism of, you know, people like dominant color and, and stuff where those images were always the ones that I knew spoke to me. I had no idea of why I'd run much, rather look at those types of images than a post portrait or something, you know. So when I realized that there was an opportunity in photography, wedding photography to do that, I thought, well, hang on, I'm going to try this. You know, this seems great. And the whole idea was to, you know, to give me my life back and spend more time with the family and, you know, not have to do this terrible commute every

day. And you know, and it worked, worked really well. It was a big shift because you know, I used to play rugby and that was always on Saturdays and you know, that

Kevin Mullins: 07:06 Got a lot more time during the week, I lost my Saturdays generally. So kind of a rugby pals and all that kind of stuff. But, but yeah, it was a great move. And you know, we've, we've, my wife has helped me enormously in the business of course, and it's facilitated us having I think, a way better life. You know, I don't drive around in a Maserati unfortunately, but, you know, it's, it's definitely a better life.

Raymond: 07:29 Yeah, I understand that. So when, before you had seen those images, kind of those more reportage style wedding images, did you have a, a skewed idea of what wedding photography was like? Did this change things for you? Is that it?

Kevin Mullins: 07:46 Yeah, absolutely. So I guess, I don't know whether it's the same in the states, but over here certainly. And definitely that time, you know, wedding photography was seen as the bottom of the barrel. It was a, if you were getting married, it was just another commodity on the list, you know, within a venue, dress, shoes, car, hire, photography, and you would normally just pick up the phone and ring the nearest photographer here, turn up, he'd stand on a truck, on a stepladder, he boss everybody around, he'd take a picture of the cake, then he'd go home. And you know, that's, that's why I always thought wedding photography wasn't, all of the, my friends went inside being too, which we're all getting married around about the same time. It always been like that, you know, don't get me wrong, they were taking nice pictures, but it was very formulaic and it wasn't part of the day that everybody hated, you know, no 25 group shots and you know, the long list and everything like that. So when I realized that that wasn't necessarily the way it had to be done, then suddenly, you know, I thought, hang on this, this could be really interesting. And, and that's, that's how it kind of manifested itself really.

Raymond: 08:52 Wow. That's so cool. How kind of like, once you saw those photos that kind of grew in your head, like, wait a second, I can kind of do my own thing. So the next step was do buy a camera. So when you bought that camera, would you like, what would you say were your technical what would, what was your technical knowledge before you had picked up a camera or before you purchase that camera on a scale from one to 10? One, one, so that was obviously a hurdle.

Kevin Mullins: 09:20 Yeah. I mean, of course when I was a kid, I, I'd had like instance kind of Kodak beach cameras if you like, you know, and point and take the film and it got developed. There's no talents whatsoever involved in that. You know, you never had any kind of idea of exposure or, you know, the, the only thing I ever remember is my dad always used to say to me you know, make sure the sun is at the, is of the back is behind you basically. And that was that. And so I bought a canon what we would call 300 d, which I think is, was the entry level rebel, whatever, x t I believe they'd like the cheapest, cheapest DSLR I could get my hand on. And really the only reason I chose a canon one over a nick on one was because my the printer we're using work or we're using work at the time was a canon printer. So I just ran the awareness. And so I thought, well, they make pretty good printers. Then photocopiers and stuff. So I went when to Jessops and bought a canon DSLR. And you know, the manuals that come with those cameras, all cameras still are terrible. So you know, there was no such thing really is like youtube was very embryonic there no such thing as a online mentoring or training. And so I just picked it up and just did what I could with it.

Raymond: 10:42 Was it so totally self taught you just went out there and just practiced until you figured it out?

Kevin Mullins: 10:47 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, totally. And we've just had a baby at the time. So of course I had the perfect way subjects and, yeah.

Raymond: 10:54 Yeah, it's a, it's funny, we have a member in the Facebook group. His name is Jason and he just a over the weekend had had his first child and he was excited. What he posted was that that he got time to practice with his 35 Nolan's is brand new, that five Mil Lens and didn't even mention the baby. So I'm sure that he's gonna appreciate that as well. So what would you say was one of the hardest aspects of excuse me, maybe exposure or photography for you to Kinda kind of get the grasp of, was there anything that you were struggling with it that took a while to figure out?

Kevin Mullins: 11:28 Yeah, I think, I guess it's a bit of a Cliche, but it's this idea of understanding the light I suppose. So when I first started shooting, I would you know, I'd fight against the light all of the time. So it was always right and exposure, compensation and you know, never really had an understanding that the light was, cause I shoots all natural light or available light. And so I had no real understanding that light is, is a, is a friend rather than an enemy. And you know, I was just like say ride an exposure, compensation and stuff. So, so now of course I, I use the lights to see where it's coming from on meter for the lights coordinator, use a lot spot meter into to help the light make something for me and the camera. But that was really something that, that was, that I found very hard.

Kevin Mullins: 12:15 So right at the beginning I would go into perhaps a, you know, let's just say a. Dot. Bridal prep room with one window. And I couldn't figure out why you know, from one end of the room, everything was just silhouettes and from the other ends of the room, everything was blown out and you know, so I was constantly riding that exposure, compensation and to try and deal with that. And, and then, you know, then I'll kind of all kind of comes together with exposure and understanding and exposure triangle. But yeah, that was, that was a kind of light bulb moment, so to speak. You know, when I finally figured that out, which wasn't too long after I started, but that was, that was the thing that I technically wise I struggled with the most.

Raymond: 12:53 Right, right. It's hard, like if you're not used to photography, seeing with your eyes light, because I think that our eyes are, they're so good at not only distinguishing light but color as well, that you just kind of feel that when you go into a room, the entire room has an even amount of light. But a, as you said there, you know, you get towards a window and everything changes. That's awesome. That's awesome. So I think it's kind of interesting for you like to hear your story about how you got into weddings. Like it was kind of from the beginning. You're like, oh, I want to get into photography because of this idea of shooting weddings. So you needed to learn about weddings, kind of the wedding day and how you were going to shoot it. So this is kind of where you started in er, finding documentary photography, documentary, wedding photography. Can you define what you considered documentary wedding photography?

Kevin Mullins: 13:51 Yeah, I think I mean, part of the reason why I've, I kind of did it in a way, the reason why I still do it and I still enjoy it is because I was not shackled by any of those rules, you know, the kind of pose in and group shots and, and all of that kind of stuff and the, the formula if you'd like, of wedding photography. So I always knew from the beginning that I wanted to do it in a documentary way. What documentary was at the time for me basically meant not in group shots. That's, that's really, as far as the I, you know, I didn't, I did not and still do not have the personality to, to organize people like that. So for me, a edit that right at the beginning and essentially it was just snapshots, candidate snapshots, a lot of head shots.

Kevin Mullins: 14:39 When I started shooting weddings properly, you know, I bought the kind of lenses, a good lenses and stuff. I had a 70 to 200 and they were, there were essentially headshots of you know, people just like not doing much. There was no story to them. And you know, I kind of realized after a while that actually I need to be going wider. I need to be getting closer, but going wider with why the lenses and started telling more of a story. That's, that's what documentary meant to me then. But initially it was, it was really this idea of just taking candy pictures if you'd like candid snaps. And I suppose to a certain extent that's what they were. They were just candid snaps. And you know, I've, I worked, I still work very hard at trying to layer the story and you know, work on a lot of themes and mantras of kind of start, middle and end. And, you know, telling a story properly rather than it just be in a whole series of snapshots, you know, head shots of people. Because I think that to a certain extent, everybody does those anyway. I still do them as well. You know, I still think it's important to have record shots, but it's it's not necessarily something that lends itself now, at least in my understand into a story. And ultimately it should be a story rather than just a series of individual pictures.

Raymond: 15:59 Sure, sure. So if, if, if starting if getting into documentary wedding photography, you were excited about it because you weren't going to take a group photos or you wouldn't be pressured to take these group photos. Did you get any kind of pushback on that in the beginning or, or was there any fear?

Kevin Mullins: 16:18 Yeah, I think and, and you know, even these days, I still do a couple of group shots if people want it, although it's, you know, it's very minimal partner, but, but yeah, right at the beginning I'm in, I'll, you know, when I do workshops and stuff, I actually show pictures from my very first wedding to, to that, to the students because I think it's important for them to see that. And you know, one of the things that happened at my very first wedding was I said to them, you know, this is, this is the way that it things is documentary. And they were like, yeah, that's cool. We love the idea. And then at about nine o'clock, just as I pour my cameras where they said, what about all the group shots? And I was like, Whoa, what'd you mean? And then when, yeah, we need to lose a group shots.

Kevin Mullins: 17:00 And so I just panicked and you know, just took these pretty poor group shots of, you know, like i think it was 45 of them in the end. My gosh. Yeah, exactly. So I came home and I said to my wife, I said, I don't think this is working because you know, the whole idea was for me to have a better way of life. And it just stressed me out really bad. So you know, I made a very conscious decision to adjust the branding and marketing of the business to ensure that as much as my brand in is to, is there to attract people, it's also, there is a filter. So it doesn't happen these days doesn't happen so much. And, but back in the beginning, yeah, was definitely a case of not really being brave enough to say to people, or I suppose not to say to them, but to educate them and say, actually, you know what, this is, this is how I, I'm, you know, this is my style.

Kevin Mullins: 17:53 And of course, if you want something else, then I can recommend somebody else who can do that for you. But, but you know, if you want me and you want the stuff that you see on my website, then this essentially is how, how I do things. And you know, that that works. It works really well. So I rarely, rarely have any issues with, with kind of that that idea that people see what they want on the websites and then want more, you know, want more of the traditional stuff because the clients are filtered and you know, works really well now. But yeah, right to the beginning it was, it was a bit of a challenge.

Raymond: 18:26 I can imagine. So I know that from my own personal story when I started, I did a lot of things that I didn't necessarily want to because I wanted to be shooting weddings and then, like you said, use my website to filter out to people. And then now I'm kind of at this point to where I'm shooting more of what it is that I do. Like. Would you recommend

taking a similar path? Or would you say just straight from the beginning say, I do this, I don't do this. If you want somebody else, go for it.

Kevin Mullins: 18:53 Yeah, I think, you know, just be brave and, and you know, the whole point of most people become what in photographers, like, you know, like there is nobody in school in high school when they say to you, what do you want to be when you leave school? Nobody ever puts a hand up and goes, I want to be a wedding photographer. Right. Just doesn't happen. And they might want to be a fashion photographer or a sports or music photographer, but not what is, so you end up becoming a wedding photographer through fortune circumstance. Whether that's simply that, you know, your brother or sister asked you to photograph a wedding cause you had a nice camera or whether it's because you wanted a completely different way of life, something that was a bit easier on the, you know, on the, on your kind of family life, whatever reason you ended up doing it through vocation.

Kevin Mullins: 19:42 You know, I think, and if it's vocational, you're doing it because you want to be doing it, then you certainly don't want to be coming back from those weddings. Thinking that was, I didn't like it, I didn't enjoy it, you know? So you have to, I believe people need to be brave and be able to just say, actually, this is how I do it, you know? And if there's not, there's absolutely nothing wrong in being a documentary photographer that also does lots of group shots and lots of portraits and all that. There's plenty of people out there that do that, of course, but they're the elements of the day that you don't want to do. You know, the don't do them or don't market them at least because you, you will end up falling out of love with her and because of his party of vocation, then you're gonna end up, you know, going back to the old day job or whatever that was and, you know, hitting the, hitting the road again.

Kevin Mullins: 20:32 So yeah, yeah, you've got to, you know, you do need to be pretty strong, I think, and without being rude. But education is the, is the key thing for the clients. You know, there's, I'll never say no to somebody, you know, I'm not going to say no way. I don't do that. But, you know, I'll say, hey, well, you know what, I can do that, but that will take up so much time, you know, and you just won't get the stuff you see on my website, which is, you know, really what you want. So have a think about it and, you know, let me know and, and, and that works all the time.

Raymond: 21:03 So you said something there that really caught my attention in that was that a, you can be a documentary wedding photographer and still get like group shots and post portraits and stuff. I guess I'm a little confused, I suppose. Like what would make what would make that still a documentary photographer? Does that make sense? Could you expand on that a little bit? Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Mullins: 21:30 No, it does. Absolutely. And I guess the point I'm making is, whilst I don't do that, I mean, like I said, we'll do a couple of group shots, but that, but that's it. The, there are plenty of people out there who will set aside half an hour of the day to do bridal portraits and you know, more group shots, et Cetera. And, and just because they do that doesn't mean for the rest of the nine and a half hours of the day where they're shooting. Candidly, they're not good documentary wedding photographers, you know. And it often, often it comes down to the marketing side of things where the confusion lies. I think for example, I don't think anybody can come to my website and expect me to be anything other than what they see. But there are plenty of people out there who market themselves as documentary and then actually on the day they spend all of their time setting up candid shots of, you know, which aren't candidate of course, but setting up shops to make them look natural.

Kevin Mullins: 22:25 And, and that definitely is not documentary photography that's stage or something to look natural. And not only is that kind of disingenuous to the term, but also I would imagine it's quite upsetting for the clients who might be expecting to just have a

funnel day with their friends and family doing their thing while the photographer does his thing. But then being told to, you know, go and stand by that window or you know, do this, do that. And that's, you know, my, my kind of definition if you like called and of course it's only minor, the people's definitions can be different is that, you know, I will not, I do not have any guidance or direction for my clients whatsoever. So for example, if the if the wedding dress is in a, in a bag lying on the floor in the, in the bridal prep room, that's the picture, you know, orange just wouldn't take that picture. But you know, it's, I'm not going to be taking that dress out and hanging out, up anywhere or anything like that. You know, if the bridesmaid is doing that for whatever reason, then I'll probably take pictures of her doing that rather than the actual thing. At the end maybe, but it's, it's about the, the inference of direction. I think. You know, and like I say, people can and do set aside time to do the more traditional stuff and that doesn't make them a worse or better photographer.

Raymond: 23:50 Yes. I gotcha. That made it perfectly clear to me. So I totally understand that. So thank you very much for a, for, for clearing that up for me cause I'm not I think you're right. I think a lot of it is the marketing. Cause you know, you see, you see a lot of wedding photographers market themselves as documentary, but then maybe they'll post like there's one photographer I'm thinking of who does like some behind the scenes photos at like weddings and stuff. And it's very much like, hey, come over here. Like, let's do this, like smiled together. And that's not as you said that, that's, that's not documentary wedding photography. So if, if kind of your job is to tell a story of a wedding day, you want to properly capture everything, including light as well as emotion, emotion between family members willing days are, there's lots of emotions already. Is there something that you do before the wedding to get an idea of a family dynamic so that when you show up, you already have an idea of a story that you're gonna tell? Or do you show up and say, let's go, let me figure it out from here?

Kevin Mullins: 24:51 Yeah, basically I don't, I very rarely meet clients beforehand. Very rarely if they want to meet me, if they want to come to the studio and have a coffee or something, then then absolutely fine. But generally I don't. And you know, sometimes when the conversation comes up about, you know, do we need to meet, I actually say to them, no, because if I come with a complete blank canvas without any expectations or any preconceived ideas of, of what you are like or your family, or like, then, you know, everything is as natural as it possibly can be. You know, and, and that works really well for me because I, I can just do my thing and, you know, I don't need to know that you know, mom and dad are divorced and hate each other or you know, there's a, there's a brother that nobody's spoken to for 15 years because if they, if I know all of those things, then, you know, that can affect my judgment perhaps.

Kevin Mullins: 25:46 You know, of course it makes no difference in terms of the photos really, because I'm not guiding or setting anything up. And you know, if, if they're not going to stand next to each other because they don't like each other, then there will be no pictures of them standing next to each other because they don't like each other. I'm not going to try and force them to do that. You know, so, so, yeah, I mean, a kind of example was this weekend at this weekend's wedding, I went and it turns out that there was a pretty, pretty well known person at the wedding. It was the sister of the groom, in fact. And I had no idea. I, you know, I had no idea whatsoever. Nobody had taught me that. And in fact we'd go all the way through to pretty much the speeches before I realized who this person was. And then I kind of, I put two and two together and I was like, ah. Right. Okay. No, I understand. But you know, and I, and I'm guessing because they hadn't told me that they didn't, you know, they, I, I reacted in such a natural way that I wasn't kind of starstruck or anything or, you know, it was just like, you're just anybody else who, you know, who I didn't recognize.

Raymond: 26:57 Of course, of course. Now, kind of going back to that, did, did, knowing that, did that new piece of information change the way that you tried to capture any photos? From there on out?

Kevin Mullins: 27:10 Not really. I think, I mean, I've done, I've done several kind of y with classes minus celebrities, minus lefties to me, major celebrities to other people. And yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't really, I don't know that it were to bother me.

Raymond: 27:27 So you weren't trying to find the one shot for the website or anything like that?

Kevin Mullins: 27:31 No I don't. I always think, and I think this is kind of important that the, my job is entirely on the day is entirely to produce pictures for the wedding clients. Okay. I never, I try not to, it's hard not to, but I try not to ever think about portfolio awards, blog posts or anything. If a good blog post or a good picture or a good award or whatever comes because of the pictures I took on the day, then that's a bonus. But I try not to allow my shooting on the day to be effected by, you know, what, what I want to put on my marketing. You know, and lots of people, a lot of people will, will do that, you know, and, and, and I think that's sad because ultimately what I want to do is give a set of images to my clients that they can look back on in 40 years time. And it'd be just a true memory of their day rather than infamy or my business, you know, they've already paid me. And that's, that's the most important thing.

Raymond: 28:30 Yeah, of course. No, that totally makes sense. So, so then in, in kind of this world of like you know, we're Pinterest and very bright and airy type photos, how do you personally convey the power of documentary approach to your wedding clients? Does that question make sense?

Kevin Mullins: 28:58 Yeah, I think you know, there's, there's a lot of subtle messages on my website in terms of you know, for example, it's not just pictures, like my portfolio is a, is a store. I talked to people on my portfolio page about how I took this picture, why I took this picture. I even include some bad pictures and I explained that, you know, technically it's bad picture, but the moment is the important thing here. So I you know, try and manifest it in terms of the way that I would speak to them face to face as if we were flicking through their childhood photo, help them you know, and, and you know, or I'll even say things like, you know, when you look at the pictures that you have from your childhood, do you are you interested in your school portraits or do you smile and laugh more at the pictures of you and your mum at the park on the beach at Christmas?

Kevin Mullins: 29:49 The candidate stuff that your uncle took on is old. You know, it's that instant printer picture camera, you know, it's faded and is blown out or whatever, but it's those pictures that are the important ones. Right. and that as soon as you start having those kinds of conversations or passing that message, then people really understand that, I think. But you know, you're right about there the kind of Instagram generation and Pinterest and the brightness of everything. And you know, there are for those people, there are the photographers and you know, there's plenty, there's plenty of wedding photographers to go around

Raymond: 30:25 Absolutely. Especially who shoot very bright and and every style for sure. So on a wedding day, I know I often get asked by, you know, the bridal party to take a certain photo or I'm, you know, can I see the back of the car? Like, can I, can I see how that photo turned out or anything? How do you, okay, I'll get, I'll give it, I'll give you another example. I am not the cheapest wedding photographer here in Indianapolis. And I shot a wedding for a couple who I would say that I was about 90% of their budget. They really wanted amazing photos, right? Is what they said. They said, we really don't care about anything else.

We want great portraits. We want, you know, great photos that we're going to remember the day by. And I said, okay. Absolutely. So I showed up great couple, but the bridal party was very much like, you know, okay, now let's you know, do this photo, let's do that photo and it was hard for me to say, you know, that's not what it is that I do, but it was the bridal party who was taking more control over the photos than the couple was.

Raymond: 31:35 Do you ever find yourself in a situation where a bridal party is either asking for a certain style of photo that may be goofy or Pinterest like and then because your, your couple is going to have a better idea of your photography then then they will. How would you handle a situation like that? Hey Raymond here and if you're listening to this, you are listening to the free version of today's interview. If you want to hear more from today's guest about the business of photography, consider becoming a premium member every week. Guests answer questions about products, pricing packages, and so much more. It will help your growing photography business thrive. This is the next logical step to join head over to beginner photography, podcast.com and click the premium membership button at the top of the page. Okay. Yeah. Do you think that there are any misconceptions or something that would surprise people to know about being a, a, a documentary wedding photographer?

Kevin Mullins: 32:36 I think, well, I dunno, I, I, I think a lot of people, not, not potential clients, but potential photographers think that it's an easy way of becoming a wedding photographer. It's easier to do this than to understand posing and lighting and all that kind of stuff. And to a certain extent it is, you know, don't get me wrong. I mean, it's, it is a talent to be able to pose well and unlike bile, etc. But the, it's not just a series of, it's, you know, there are a lot of people, a lot of photographers out there who will take 20,000 frames our wedding and take 500 friends at the end and, and, you know, essentially hoping for the best. Sure. and that's, that's also fine if they, if that's the way they want to operate and that's the way they want to work.

Kevin Mullins: 33:24 Absolutely. but you know, I think from a photography point of view, it's telling a story and layer in a story and connecting the dots and having the cohesion throughout the day that tells a full history of the event rather than just taken thousands and thousands of shots and hoping that you get, get some good pictures. That's the challenge. That's the hardest thing. And they don't get me wrong. I overshoot as well, you know, the, as much as the next person, maybe not 20 face and pictures, but I do overshoots. But you know, I, I like in my camera bag, I have the five W's written underneath the, the lens of my camera back and these stand for who, why, what, where, and when. So if ever I'm struggling or to where they're in length you know, I can't, there's nothing happen in what, you know, it's, it's slow.

Kevin Mullins: 34:17 It's, it's pedestrian. Look at that. I re I'm reminded of those folk W's and as long as I've answered who, why, what, where, and when, then that's the story. That's all of those, those parts are connected. And it's just like writing a newspaper article or writing a novel. It's the WHO, why, what, where, and when you get that part right, you've got the story. And that stops me from having to run around with a, like a headless checkin and thinking, Oh man, I haven't got any pictures. I don't know what to do. And then, then you just end up taking pictures for the sake of it. Yeah. You know, and I think, and I think also one of the challenges for documentary style photographers is to have the confidence to stop photographing and listen, watch, look at the light and look at the characters, put the cameras down and understand the environment and then start taking pictures again.

Kevin Mullins: 35:11 You know, I feel that, and this is true for all whatever your talk was, I guess I feel that because we're being paid to be there, we'd feel like the, if the clients are looking, we should be taking pictures. We should have a camera and stuff to her face. And that's, that's not true because that means they're just paying you to be a a mechanical

photographers. Somebody's pressing, anybody can press the button on the top of the camera and you, but anybody can do that. But only you can see what you see through the viewfinder. And only I can see what I see through the viewfinder. And so sometimes you need to stop and slow down and watch and wait and listen and, you know, smell the kitchen, whatever it is that manifests in order to get the pictures that will tell the story of the day. And don't be afraid to just stop, you know, and it's not, you're not there. And I often say to my clients, I'm not there as a photographer on there as, as an observer. And, and that's the thing, a photographer has a technical function. Photography is a technical function. Seeing is, is not, that's, that's kind of a difference.

Raymond: 36:13 Yes. I think that that's really important to hear. Especially from me as somebody who I feel that exact same way. I feel you know, if I'm being paid to be there, a lot of people look at wedding photography already as very much a luxury. And here I am as a service provider, not doing anything, you know, like if I'm just standing there, and this happens a lot during meal time is typically people don't like photos of themselves eating. Do you find anything? Is there anything that you do during meal time to kind of fill that gap? Yeah, let's sit down and like, Hey, I, I take a break.

Kevin Mullins: 36:55 Yeah. you know, and that's, that's all in the contract. And if they, I mean, if something happens, for example, the speeches might be between courses, then obviously I'll come in and out. But yeah, I mean, I, I

Raymond: 37:06 Pictures of people eating is not a, nobody wants that. People, people don't want that. Yeah, yeah, go on. So no, I was going to say sometimes if

Kevin Mullins: 37:17 Thought maybe a child doing eating something like stuffing a cake in their face or something, then maybe that's an interesting picture. But generally once they sit that normally either be shooting for six hours or so by the time they sit down for their meal. So I'm ready for them to break at that point

Raymond: 37:30 Yeah, I always think that it's weird that, that how popular the cake cutting shot is. Then people want that picture of them meeting cake. I think to myself, like, you're not going to frame this. Like who wants a picture of them being stuffed with cake? So yeah, unless that's a child. I don't understand. I don't understand. A, so in the group I asked some people some questions what questions they had about documentary, wedding photography and [inaudible] I think I pronounced that right. I believe is French. I could got that totally wrong. He wanted to know specifically, he asked how difficult is it to cover the whole wedding day in a reportage style? So I know that you answered that a little bit earlier. We kind of talked about your, your, your philosophy, but I will expand upon that a little bit without doing much posing. When you show up, what is it that you're looking for aside from the WHO, what, when, where, and why. There's obviously light, right? And there there's emotion. So is there a way that you try to go about capturing a scene in, of you that kind of makes it

Kevin Mullins: 38:39 Repeatable for you, that is like your style? Did that question make sense at all? It, yeah, kind of. But the answer is not really because you know, when you shoot in a purely candidate style, every single wedding is different, like every single one. And there is no, there's no formula as such. I mean, weddings themselves are quite formulated yet. So, you know, they, they, they kind of fall into a pattern. You know, I suppose because I, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm really obsessed by kind of the interaction between people and the emotional play between them. So when, for example, at the end of the ceremony when people start hugging each other, that's, that's really my important time. That's there, the pictures that I really want to get and I get in really close to get those pictures. But at the same time, I know that I don't want to be in the way or [inaudible], so I'll nearly always make sure I'm behind the bride or the groom

or the person who's being hoped and I'm capturing the, the huggers rather than the, the hoked.

Kevin Mullins: 39:43 And, and that way the brides, you know, doesn't even see me, doesn't notice me. I do my thing and I, I get in close and I move around very quickly. And you know, that's, that's kind of the thing that I'm, when that doesn't happen for whatever reason, when people don't have that, that part where they don't park at whatever, you know, for whatever reason, then that's quite sad for me. And I know that there often sets the trend for the rest of the day. But yeah, I mean, it's, yeah, literally every single wedding is different. One, you know, I, I rarely, I don't, I've never gone down the route of being recommended by wedding venues. I'm not, there's anything wrong with that of course, but I just have never gone down that route. So it's rare for me to be at the same venue very often. You know, so it's everyone is a new adventure. Sure. So

Raymond: 40:36 That taking photos of guests kind of sparked another question. I think, I think it was you who I heard on Andrew Helmitch's photobiz exposed podcast. I believe that you said something to the effect now it could have been somebody else's. So please correct me if I'm wrong, that that like your ultimate goal or dream would be to go to a wedding and be confused as a guest so that like nobody knew that you were there. Does that sound familiar? Am I thinking of somebody else?

Kevin Mullins: 41:01 No, no, no. I mean, it's something that I probably would have said. Yeah. It's I, you know, I, one of the testimonials I have on my website in fact is, is so to that point yet she says that you know, the common she got from a lot of the guests where they didn't even know they had, I, they had a wedding photographer and that, and that's the ultimate, and that's, that's the utopia of course. And as, apart from during the ceremony I suppose, where you're often the only one either at the front or the for the rest of the time, I just am, I behaved like a guest. I use small cameras. I dress like a guest as much as I can. You know, I just, I just do my thing and you know, I don't, I'm not telling people to do anything to say cheese or anything, you know, like they do often just totally forget on there, you know, and that, and that's a great thing. I mean generally it's obvious I am the deficient, you know, I'm the only single guy there with, with two, two cameras, I will, other than that, I'm doing my absolute best to, to just be a guest. Yeah. Yes, yes.

Raymond: 42:09 So how does that is there ever been a time where you've had to interact with with a guest? You know, maybe they're asking lots of questions or something and like you need to get back to work. How, how does it so it was John specifically within the Facebook group asked, well, what is it like interacting with guests when you're just trying to be a fly on the wall?

Kevin Mullins: 42:29 Well, yeah, I mean, when I say that, you know, I don't interact with them. If they talk to me or we have a conversation, you know, just a general chat. Often people ask me about my cameras and you know, that kind of stuff. Of course I'm going to speak to them, you know, occasionally are, if I can see some of the guys looking at the football scores or wherever, I'll go over and see what's the score. You know, that kind of thing. I'm not a, you know, I'm not trying to be completely invisible and never speak to anybody. But what I won't do is, is kind of affect a particular moment by doing anything. So yeah, I mean, I'll, you know, I will chat to them and everything and occasionally you do get the, the odd guests that is a bit more friendly than others in terms of you know, especially kind of photography questions and everything and yeah, it just polite and then walk away. And then my friend, he always says that I'm, you know, one of the questions we always get asked is oh, how many pictures have you taken today? And, and Neil always says to try to confuse me. He says, Oh, about 20 gallons and that, and then of course, their face just changes in, and then we just leave them in this confusion yet.

Raymond: 43:40 That's genius. I was, I was thinking, I was like, maybe if you said like a small number, like 12 converted to gallons, that, that's wonderful. When, when you, when you're shooting like I can only imagine, I've never been to the UK, but from photos that I've seen of weddings typically their older venues they're much darker than you know, not as much available light. And I know the cameras today, especially Food Fuji can operate it just like incredible ISS. Do you use any sort of, any sort of artificial light at all and what do you do when it gets too dark?

Kevin Mullins: 44:24 Yeah, so the only, the only lights that I typically take with me these days is a it's called a Lumi Muse. So it's a little handheld net. It's I don't have it to hand, but it's, it's no bigger than, than this, this thing. So that's a memory card holder, but it's about the same size. And I can hold that. It's, it's actually, it's, it's rechargeable any day. I charge it once a year and I just use it for perhaps the first dance or something. And that's it. And like my philosophy is that if it's light enough for people to see each other, then it's light enough for my camera to see them. That's, that's the way that I work. And you know, if I have to slow the shutter speed down or push the ISO up and then, then that's it also, that's fine. But honestly it's the Djs that this goes to the bands, they all have lights that we can work with. It's,

Raymond: 45:24 lights they've already set up.

It's fine. So just finding a spot to where you can utilize their, their

Kevin Mullins: 45:30 Yeah. And if they, if the light isn't good, then I'll use that Lumi Muse. And I don't like using it because it's, it looks artificial. It just doesn't look, it's, you know, if, if the DJ or somebody sets up specific lights, then I want the pictures to remind the bride and groom of the particular lighting that was there when they had that, that their first dance, you know if you, if I go and set up off camera flash and all that kind of stuff, and then all that does is remind them of the time that I set up off camera flash. Yeah. So that's, that's kind of why I don't do it, but again, just because I, you know, I don't do that. It's, it's partly a, you know, just no knowledge and Latin and laziness perhaps even, but it doesn't mean that it's wrong to do that. You know, I've got, I've got very good friends who do do that and do it very well. And which is, as you said earlier, would be a boring world if we were older.

Raymond: 46:25 Right. Right. So then last question here for ya. Have you ever got a couple who said, oh my gosh, this photo is way too grainy. What were you doing here?

Kevin Mullins: 46:40 No. no I haven't, but that doesn't mean they haven't thought that or said it to themselves or they've never actually said it to me.

Raymond: 46:49 There you go. If it's never been told to you, then it's never happened. We're going to go with that. I think a lot of beginners get, so I'm worried over ISL performance scared to push their camera past like 800, you know, and you're just living proof right here that if you know you're shooting in a very dark venue, you can push it upwards of higher than 6,400.

Kevin Mullins: 47:11 Oh yeah, I get 12, 800. Yeah,

Raymond: 47:13 You got a 12,800 and you've never heard a complaint from a client to you never. He go, just focus on getting that shot. Just focusing on getting that shot. Yeah. Kevin, I really want to be mindful of your time. I appreciate everything that you've shared today. Before I let you go, can you please let the listeners know where they can find you online?

Kevin Mullins: 47:33 You kind of did. Thank you very much. It's m my website is Kevin Mullins, photography.co. Dot. UK. Instagram is Kevin Mullins photography. And we also run a podcast called the Fuji Cast, which they could find that FujiCast Dakota UK or on any podcast network specifically Fujifilm kind of stuff. Yeah, that's it. Yeah.

Raymond: 47:55 Well, Kevin, again, thank you so much for coming on the show and I, I, I just want to tell you one last time that I truly enjoy looking at your photos and you inspire me to be a better photographer. So this was, this was a joy to talk to you today, so thank you.

Kevin Mullins: 48:08 Thanks Raymond. And it's been great. It's really pleasurable to be here.

Raymond: 48:12 How about that? If you are unaware of, if you were unaware of Kevin Mullins before this point, please, please, please check out some of his work. If you're listening on your phone, you should be able to just swipe up to view the show notes where I've included links to some of his photos. But if you're on Instagram, Facebook, please look at his work, check out his website. It is really something that is almost, I mean the photos that he is able to anticipate and take that are almost complete, that are completely candid, but no interaction are so much better than the photos that I try to manipulate and, and create a moment around. So that is a skill that has just so impressive to see. And I think one of my biggest takeaways was that, that everyone kind of told Kevin that he wasn't set out, you know, to shoot weddings, but it was because of his, his fresh approach and he that he found something that, that he meshed with and obviously, you know, he's killing it. So just don't listen to, you know, what others are saying. If it feels right to you when it comes to a photography. So there you go. That is it for today's interview. Until next week, I want you to get out. I want you to keep shooting. I want you to focus on yourself and stay safe. All right, that's it. I love you all.

Outro: 49:41 If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.

BPP 154: Kevin Mullins - True Documentary Wedding Photography

Automated transcription by temi.com

BPP 153: How to Stand Out as a Photographer in a Saturated Market

Now more than ever it is hard to stand out as a photographer. Anyone can create amazing photos with the phone in their pocket. So how to you stand out and become the photographer you are meant to be? Know that gear does not matter.

Now more than ever it is hard to stand out as a photographer. Anyone can create amazing photos with the phone in their pocket. So how to you stand out and become the photographer you are meant to be?

Know that gear does not matter. Like I said earlier incredible photos can be taken with a telephone. You need to have an understanding of the most basic elements in photography before you can move on and start your journey to stand out.

Learn about my mini course “Conquer Your Camera” here

https://learn.beginnerphotographypodcast.com/p/conquer-your-camera

Once you understand the basic elements of photography you can move on to taking the steps to stand out.

Step 1: Develop your Style

You do not pick your style, your style picks you. It can not be created just refined by taking thousands and thousands of photos.

Step 2: Focus on ONE THING

Don’t be a jack of all trades. Focus on one thing and go deep. Don’t be a portrait photographer, be a lifestyle portrait photographer for families with multiple foster children over 7 years old. Don’t worry about the clients you are cutting out. McDonalds is the most profitable resturant in the world and is not worries about those people who want tacos.

Step 3: Charge More

If budget was not an issue would you rather hire a $500 wedding photographer or a $5000 wedding photographer? Chances are you would choose the $5000 wedding photographer because even though you have not seen their photos, they must be better to charge that much money. It is all perceived value.

Step 4: Care about People

Go 1 on 1 as often as possible. You could pay to have an ad shown to 2000 people to hire you and 1 might book. But if you were in a room with 100 potential clients and you talked to them individually I bet 5 would book you. Take the time to understand people and they will feel valued and want to help you and share you with their friends.

All of this takes time. I know I still need to work on caring for people better. But all of this is not possible if you don’t know the essentials of photography.

Chances are you can not implement all of this tomorrow because you don’t know who you are as an artist, as a business owner if thats where you want to go, or how you want to make the world a better place.

If you have ever been on a shoot and it just wasn’t working and you didn’t know how to fix it, you need to be working on that first. Thats step 1. Because if you still get lost just trying to make sure your photo isn’t way too bright or too dark then developing your style can not be your priority.

That exact reason is why I have created a mini course called Conquer your Camera. I dont want you to feel stuck when shooting, I want to give you a helping hand so this is not your average mini course.

In Conquer your Camera I go over the essentials you need to know before moving ahead to the next step.

In Conquer Your Camera you will learn about the 3 most important elements in photography

• What is exposure and how its controlled

• How composition is used to frame your photos

• and the importance of light and the different kinds to look out for.

But what makes this mini course special is that included in the mini course you will receive the Conquer Your Camera field guide. This set of cards held together by keychain are the perfect companion to attach to your camera bag or camera strap. Never again feel lost when you are out shooting. The answers will be at your finger tips!

It covers everything from when to use what camera settings, where to find soft light, compositional guidelines to improve your photos right away, a checklist of what you need to prepare before going out on a shoot, and a list of photography terms you need to know.

This is the first step you need to take before focusing on all of the extras.

Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

BPP 152: Jessica Rae - Powerful Boudoir Photography

Jessica Rae is a Vancouver boudoir photographer. Take one look at her website and you will see she has an incredible ability to create soul and tell a powerful story through the images she takes. Today we chat about how she creates such beautiful images.

Become A Premium Member is access to more in-depth questions that help move you forward!

In This Episode You'll Learn:

• How Jessica got started in photography

• Challenges she faced when learning photography

• Jessicas main source of photography education

• How Jessica got into Boudoir Photography

• What Boudoir photography is

• How to get intimate lighting when shooting boudoir to add mystery

• What it means to be a Believer in the power of Vulnerability

• Weather or not you need a studio to shoot boudoir

Premium Members Also Learn:

• How to approach someone to do boudoir when you’re building your portfolio

• How to make clients comfortable when in a venerable state of being partially clothed in front of a strangers camera

• How to book more clients when its hard to share images on social media

Resources:

• Vancouver Boudoir Photographer Jessica Rae’s website

• Jessica Rae on Instagram

• Jessica Rae on Facebook

Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

Full Interview Transcription:

Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.

Raymond: 00:00 Hey Raymond here from the beginning of photography podcast. And today we're talking about getting started in boudoir photography. So let's get into it.

Intro: 00:08 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfields, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raymond interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now with you as always, husband, Father Ho brewer, La Dodger Fan, an Indianapolis wedding photographer, Raymond Hatfield. Welcome back

Raymond: 00:37 This episode of the beginner photography podcast. As always, I am Raymond, your host and a, I've got a bit of a story for you today. This past weekend I had a wedding that I had been looking forward to all year, right? So this wedding, it was a, it was, it was at a nice venue. It was, it was going to be great. And this year, you know, weather has been, has been just so crazy. It has been ridiculous. In fact a lot of what's being talked about on the news about the weather is how farmers are our projected to lose $51 billion in revenue. Because they're unable to plant crops because there's just been so much rain. So I've been really lucky this year. Every wedding that I've had there was supposed to be rain. And then the day of, there was no rain and this wedding was a no exception leading up to it.

Raymond: 01:32 It was scheduled to be rain, but I really didn't you know, factor it in too much. I really didn't care because I just assumed that all the rain would clear up by the time of the wedding. So the morning, you know, comes, I wake up pouring down rain, like, okay, maybe it will clear up just a little bit later. You know, I've, I've been working long enough to to know that I can get all the portraits that I need in about 15 minutes, you know? And if, if the rain clears for that much time, then we will be okay. So I show up to the venue, still pouring down rain, and in fact, now it's harder than ever. We even had flash flood warnings. Our phones could, even though like they were on silent, we kept everybody's phones kept going off because of the flash flood warnings for where we were.

Raymond: 02:22 And what I, I quickly came to the realization that I would not have any, any time that day to do any sort of outside portraits, any sort of like, you know photos in nature, nothing outside, nothing with any sun that was kind of worried today the truth, because the venue, even though it was beautiful, it was very small. It was essentially it's a, it's a barn. It's a barn, you know, and it it, it was, it's turned into a wedding venue. And as you can imagine, there's not really a lot of space to roam around in a barn with like 150 in there. So I thought, okay, what am I going to do? To get portraits? Because as a professional

photographer, I can't just say, oh, I'm sorry guys, it's raining. It looks like you guys aren't getting photos today.

Raymond: 03:11 It is still my job to get this couple beautiful photos, no matter the conditions. So this is where I was so thankful for knowing how to use my my flashes and specifically being able to use them off camera, putting them on a light stand, setting them behind the camera or I'm sorry, behind the couple and just moving them around so that they weren't directly on my camera pointed right at the couple just to be able to get some interesting fun and unique shots that, that were, you know, good quality. Because again, like I said, just because it's raining outside doesn't mean that I get a free pass and don't have to take photos. So kind of the, the, the, the whole point that I'm trying to make here is that I'm, I'm fortunate, right, because I know how to use off camera flash, but that is, that's more of an advanced technique.

Raymond: 04:05 I'm not saying that you need to know how to learn off camera flash right now, but what I'm saying is that you need, you still need a strong foundation in photography. You're going to see things like off camera flash and you're going to think, wow, you can create amazing portraits with that. I got to learn that. Or you're going to be able, or you know, you'll see things like tilt shift lenses like wow, you can make incredible portraits with that. I need to get a till CIF Lens. But if you don't have a solid foundation in photography, it's all going to be for nothing. You need that strong foundation to build on because otherwise everything's just going to fall apart. If you don't know the fundamentals of photography and then you get an off camera flash, none of it is going to matter. You're not going to be able to get beautiful portraits because you don't understand the fundamentals of how a camera works.

Raymond: 04:51 And therefore adding in an extra element is it's just not going to turn out very well. And so it's, it's because of that, you know, that I just want you to realize that where you're at right now, that photography is a very long journey and you are at the starting line and just because you're going to see cool things often to the distance, you know, that doesn't mean that you need to rush to get there. The, the, the stronger of an understanding that you have of the basics of photography exposure. You know, how by how to control your settings light where to see it, you know, just where it naturally occurs and how to manipulate it yourself without, you know, off camera flash or anything at this moment. And then composition, how you're going to compose your shot, how you're going to frame it, the stronger of an understanding that you have on those three things.

Raymond: 05:48 Those are the fundamentals of photography. When the time comes to build on that, to look into new specialty lenses, to look into the off camera flash or we're going to be so much better prepared. And I'm just once again happy that that, that I'm at that point because if I were to, you know, book a wedding and think, hey, you know, everything's going to be great and then show up and not know how to use flash. I mean, it would, it would have been a disaster. It would've been an absolute disaster because essentially I just had to create things out of nothing because I, I brought the, I brought the light and could control it all myself. So just enjoy this time that you are in right now. Even though it seems like everything's brand new and that you don't have a full grasp of it, still do everything that you can to enjoy these moments while you grow because one day you will get there.

Raymond: 06:40 You're just not there today and that, that's not a bad thing. Enjoy the ride and you will get there eventually. So that is it. That's a, that's a story that I wanted to share. Hopefully you can take something away from that. But now I want to give a quick shout out to our latest iTunes review. And that came from Kaylee Sorg. Kaley wrote a, I just recently started listening to the podcast and it has quickly become one of my favorites. I am a beginner in photography. And honestly, learning this craft can sometimes be really overwhelming. A Raymond is relatable and breaks down things in an understandable way that takes the

pressure off of learning. This is so helpful to a beginner like me, Kaylee, thank you so much for leaving that review in iTunes. I really do appreciate that. And I think that that kind of relates back to that story that I just shared a few moments ago.

Raymond: 07:36 You know, it's that a, it can be overwhelming, but as long as you enjoy the ride and you continue moving forward, you're going to get there. So if you are new to the podcast or just photography in general, I want to thank you for joining me today and I would love to invite you to subscribe to the podcast for more weekly interviews with some of the world's top photographers like you're going to listen to today. And today's interview is one that we, we talk about a lot. I mean, we really get into it. This is not a technical episode by any means. This is, this is going to get your mind in the right head space to just start shooting boudway right? Why Shoe boot Voir what sorts of things are you looking for? And even more importantly, you're going to learn about a Jessica's journey into Duar and how it helped her.

Raymond: 08:27 So as always, I cut a portion of the interview out just for premium members specifically related to questions about business, right? If you're kind of at that stage where you're slightly past beginner, you understand, you know, the, the foundation of photography, but you want to learn a little more or you want to start making money with your camera. This is the, a portion of the podcast that I cut out. So today, premium members are going, going to hear how to approach someone to do booed wire when you're still building your portfolio, how to make clients comfortable when they're in a vulnerable state of being. You know, partially clothed in front of a stranger's camera, a where to shoot, whether you can shoot in your home or you know, you have to rent a photography studio and how to book clients when it is so hard to share your images on social media.

Raymond: 09:17 So again, this is all business related stuff. So if you're interested and you want to know, learn more about business and photography, head over to beginner photography, podcast.com and click the premium membership button up at the top and you can now become a premium member right away. So that is it. Let's go ahead and get on into today's interview with Jessica Ray. Today's guest is boudway photographer, Jessica Ray. If you just take one look at her website, you will see that she has an incredible ability to create soul and tell a powerful story through the images that she takes today. I'm excited to chat about how she creates such beautiful images. Jessica, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Jessica Rae: 09:53 Thank you for inviting me.

Raymond: 09:54 Of course. So as I mentioned there your work kind of stands alone, right? If you just look at your work compared to another photographer's work, I think that there is something that differentiates it from a, from a visual standpoint. And that's really exciting to see us as somebody who, you know, as, as, as a collective of people who just see tons of social media images every single day. But I'm sure that it took a while to get to this point to where you are today. So can you tell me how you got your start in photography in the first place?

Jessica Rae: 10:27 I was about 15 years old. I won't, wow. I don't care if you know my age, but anyway, it was a long time ago and back in the day where we still had dark rooms in our schools. And so I actually took zoom class and learn how to develop my own negatives and we did our own prints in the dark room. So that's the only formal education that I've had as far as photography goes. I've always been heavily into visual arts, whether it's drawing, painting, sculpting, woodwork. I've Kinda tried my hand at all of them. I didn't actually take up photography seriously until about 2010. And then I didn't start my career or my full time dive into the photography world until about 2013.

Raymond: 11:16 Okay. So what was it between those years when you were in high school learning photography, being in the dark room? What was it that, that, that didn't?

Jessica Rae: 11:26 I think I let my old man get to me and I didn't think I could make a living being an artist. And so I tried to do the nine to five grind. I tried to make a steady paycheck and all those things that, you know that generation kind of scared you into. And I wanted, I knew I wanted to start a family, so I kind of, I made, I made making a regular paycheck and starting family my priority. I'm at a young age, so it's funny because I didn't start taking myself seriously until I became a single mother. And then I started to realize that I, yeah, I having three little children takes up 24, seven, three 65 days of your time and there's not much left for you. So I think I got back into photography more as a self care and drawing and painting and all that felt, you know, when you've got three, I, my children are very close in age, so having three little children are running around, pulling out all the oil paints and getting into all of that. It was, it's too labor intensive and it's too messy and it's too, it's too involved. So I think I liked the act of photography that for me at that time in my life, it was kind of a clean art. There was some instant gratification with it, but I also was able to document life and moments and tell people's stories. And that's kind of really what pushed me into going, no, I need to do this everyday, all day, all the time. I need to come fully immerse myself into this genre.

Raymond: 13:08 Yeah. So when you were in high school, you mentioned the dark rooms or you're shooting film. When you pick the camera back up again, first part of the question was, was it like riding a bike where you could just kind of pick it up naturally again or are I guess? And then part two what sorts of hurdles did you find when you, when you switched to digital?

Jessica Rae: 13:28 It was, I mean I had all the basics. I knew, you know, my shutter speeds and my ISO is and you know, in my f stops and how those all work together. But learning, I think honestly once you have that knowledge, it's just about learning light and I think light is the most important factor when it comes to photography. So there was still a learning curve there. And going to digital, I mean, I was able to experiment a lot more. I was able to take more risks because it wasn't like I'm wasting money or I have to wait weeks on end to, you know, see the results, remember what my settings were and you know, versus getting my film developed and back. So I definitely was able to be a lot more experimental and try new things, which inevitably got me to where I am. Cause that was that. I think that's the best and most fun part of, of digital photography. But I won't lie. I'm getting back into film. So

Raymond: 14:28 I love it. Now just to clarify, the best and the best part of digital photography is the instant gratification. Is that it?

Jessica Rae: 14:35 I think there is no, that was just photography in general. Painting was just more of a process. Oh my gosh. I think it was not having the fear and being able to let go and experiment more. Yes. The pro to digital for sure.

Raymond: 14:50 Okay. So, so you picked back up the camera, you started photographing the kids and kind of documenting their life. How did it turn? How did it go from there to where you are today? Shooting Boudoir?

Jessica Rae: 15:03 I've, regardless of what type of art I was doing, drawing, painting, sculpting, whatnot. I've always done portraits. I've always drawn or documented people and body scapes. So that was just without question that when I started photography I wanted to focus on people. I didn't take pictures of landscapes. I didn't take photographs of, you know, it was just, it was just life. And it wasn't even necessarily focused on, on my children. It was just just moments in day to day. Because of, I'd say where I've gotten now and why I think I got back into it was really important. Being a single mom, I didn't have a very healthy relationship

with my ex. And so for me at that time in my life, it was really important to shift my focus to being not just a mother, not just a wife, not just that it was being a woman. And so that I think is what first propelled me into the booed wire world was that I got to work with women and help empower them and help to let them take control of their own bodies and their own selves.

Raymond: 16:12 How did you first discover boudoir?

Jessica Rae: 16:15 I don't really remember actually. I mean, I can tell you who some of my early influences were definitely you and failing of last 40% who has now gone on with his wife, Brianna, to create, do more photographer community. They were definitely a big inspiration. But I can't tell you specifically if there was a moment, I mean, coming from a fine art background, I've always done life drawings and new drawings and, and, and whatnot. So I think it's just always been ingrained in me. So boudoir, when getting into the photography genre of art just felt like a natural progression for me.

Raymond: 16:53 I see. I see. That makes sense. Okay. So I guess before we go any further can you give those who don't know a, a can you describe what Boudway is?

Jessica Rae: 17:07 First. funny enough, I don't actually love the word boudoir because it has such a, either lack of definition or too broad of a definition. I think that there are many people define it differently. I mean, you go to the while, the textbook definition dubois rate in a woman's bedroom and people take that a little too literally. And so if you all of a sudden are taking photos of someone out in nature or outside of the bedroom and into another type of environment, all of a sudden it's not booed wire. And that's, that's not what that means to me. I connect more with the term intimate portraits because I feel like good wire is to pigeonholed by, by at least the general population. Budweiser to me just is an intimate portrait. Doesn't have to be a woman, doesn't have to be a man. I don't care how you identify. It's just having a nice, vulnerable, intimate, candid, authentic capture of a human being.

Raymond: 18:14 Okay. So,uI'm trying to put myself in the listeners shoes real quick. And,utypically,uthe boudoir photos are wearing like intimate clothing or like,

Jessica Rae: 18:25 Yeah, we're good are typically would be lingerie in a, in a bedroom and typically it would be a woman.

Raymond: 18:30 Gotcha. Okay. Okay. Gotcha. So if anybody's listening now you understand going forward what it is that we are going to be talking about. So you mentioned earlier when, when you, when you made the switch to digital, you focused a lot on, on light, right? Because that is one of the most important things that is not in the camera that you need to be focusing on. And when I reached out to the beautiful people of the beginning photography podcast, Facebook group about questions that they had about boudoir photography, one of them came from Isabelle and she wants to know about lighting. She wants to know about intimate lighting. And I figured if there's anybody who's going to know anything about this, it's going to be you looking at your photos. I've seen some behind the scenes photos and you also work with some artificial lighting as well, which is awesome. So can you talk to me a little bit about lighting and kind of the miss the mystery I suppose that you create?

Jessica Rae: 19:24 For me, I would say I'm 90% natural light. I do like to experiment and play and I encourage every photographer to kind of break past their comfort zones and their norms and to try different things. So I do incorporate some strobes or some constant led lights at time. Sometimes you just get a different look and sometimes I live on the Pacific northwest. It's very rainy and cloudy here a lot of the time. So every now and then if it's a really gloomy day, I need to kind of just help the sun out and give a little boost.

Raymond: 19:58 I love that. So what is it that you're trying to create with, with, with your lighting?

Jessica Rae: 20:03 For me, my photography would be described as dark and moody lighting versus light and airy. So a lightened area is going to be a very well lit light all around, kind of 365 degrees, kind of. And it has its place. It's just not mine. I feel like the dark and Moody Lighting we're, we're really playing up. The shadows really helps to create Beyonce and drama and mood. And for me it's going to convey a lot more emotion and a tele, a lot more of a dramatic and dynamic story.

Raymond: 20:44 Okay. So spending more time in the shadows. I love that.

Raymond: 20:48 I love that. Accentuating the shadows or playing up the shadows rather. So does that mean, so how, how would you, how would you approach a situation? Cause I know that a lot of new photographers are worried about shooting like in low light situations. Is that, is, is playing with shadows the same as working in low light conditions?

Jessica Rae: 21:08 It is, but there's a huge misconception with dark and moody photography that it's either a very low or having a lack of light and that is, can be farther from the truth if you walk into my back bedroom, for example, where it has my absolute favorite lighting, it's a north facing window so it doesn't get any direct sunlight, but it has the most consistent and even even and predictable lighting. Regardless of the weather outside, it's actually a very bright room. So if you're walking in there and you have no idea how I've created my work, you're going to be like, oh, you must close to curtains or you must do this. And that's just not, not true at all. It's not about a lack of light. It's about the direction and the placement of light. So if I have a room that's going to have multiple, like say a forest, you know, you're in a box round, there's four sides to a square.

Jessica Rae: 22:02 If you're going to have lights on either opposing sides or all three sides, you're not going to be able to achieve that dark and moody lighting. You're going to get more light, even airy lighting because there's light all around. So it's definitely going to be about the direction of the light and the placement of the light in conjunction with your subject. So you don't want to have your back to the light that's going to create a more flat lighting scenario, do you mean? Yeah. Right. So the let, I don't want the light to my back. Gotcha. I want it to my subjects side or back. So the light source for me is always to my side or in front of me. Gotcha. Okay. And then that way my shadows are created facing the camera cause the light sources to the side and behind. So that suspense play up more of the shadows. Correct. Like Saris is behind me and facing my subject, I'm getting a flat lighting all around and I'm losing all of my shadow.

Raymond: 23:05 Yeah. Yeah. So let's say that a, you weren't in this room, right? You had to go out and shoot somewhere else. I think at times, like when I see a lot of like intimate portrait share though the lighting can be either very soft or it can be very hard, like to accentuate aspects of the body. So can you talk to me about how you like how, how hard or how soft do you like your lighting?

Jessica Rae: 23:31 I'm definitely a fan of hard light. I love contrast. I love I, yeah, high contrast is definitely my jam. Do you

Raymond: 23:44 Get that through, through window in that bedroom?

Jessica Rae: 23:46 Absolutely. Yeah. So I only have, have a foresighted square in the room. There's only one wall with a window. Now to control that. And you can, I have blackout curtains on there as well. So I mean I can close them to a degree. It's kind of funny when you

start looking at it. I'm usually utilizing my natural light window, like a studio light, cause if it's fully open, it's like a big giant soft box. But if I'm closing it, all of a sudden now I have a tiny little strip box. So I mean it's just about having the quality and the direction of the light versus just filling a room completely with light

Raymond: 24:30 Come in from everywhere for sure. Right,

Jessica Rae: 24:31 Right. So I mean, while I still prefer natural light, you can definitely get all of these, this the same dark, moody look using strokes and using artificial light sources as well.

Raymond: 24:43 Very cool. Very cool. So I kind of want to go back to when you first started, I asked there earlier kind of how you found boudoir and how you moved into that space. Can you tell me about your first Boudoir client? Like how did I want to know how you booked them? Where are you nervous and how did it turn out? Hey Raymond here and if you're listening to this, it means that you are listening to the free version of today's podcast, which means that you are missing out big time. You know, if you become a premium member, not only do you unlock the full interview with today's guests where they share so much more valuable information on how to become a successful photographer, but you also get access to the entire back catalog of past interviews with some of the world's most renowned and experienced photographers who open up and share how they got to where they are and what they would do if they had to start all over again today. Now, if you want to find out, become a premium member by heading over to patreon.com Forward slash beginner photography podcast or just head on over to beginner photography, podcast.com and click the link on our homepage. That's it. I hope to see you there in of course. And that makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah. On your website it says that you are a believer in the power of vulnerability. And you talked a little bit about this earlier, but can you, can you expand on that and what it is? Did you mean by that?

Jessica Rae: 26:12 I think I'm an empath and I've struggled with that most of my life. I remember being little and everybody you'd be like, Oh, there goes Jessica. She's going on a tangent talking about herself again. She's so self involved and I've learned through life that that is never been my intent. It used to hurt my feelings when people would say that. Cause I'm like, that's not what I'm trying to do. I want to connect with people, I want to relate to people. So I share my story with you so that I can be like, do we have something in common? Do you understand how I feel? Or you're telling me something that happened to you? So I talk about something similar that happened to me so that you can see, I relate to you. I understand. And I think that that is being vulnerable.

Jessica Rae: 26:57 It's not about being vulnerable because I'm half naked. It's not about being violent, it's just stripping down all of the layers and being candid and authentic and genuine and just connecting with other human beings. And like I was saying earlier, that vulnerability is brave and it is courage. And so I think it takes a lot of being brave and being courageous to connect with other human beings. It's kind of a scary thing, right? To put yourself out there to tell your story and risk people either making fun of you or being like you're the only one that's, that's ever happened to you. And that's just not the case. That there's always somebody else that maybe needs to hear your story, to know they're not alone or you need to tell it so other people can come to you and be like, it's okay, I understand and you're not alone. So that's kind of my whole message is that I just want and want people to share their stories. And that doesn't have to mean that they verbally spilled their guts to me or that they write all their life story. But I just need them to go there in their own mind, in their own heart and in their own self through our session that they're kind of working on it. I'm not a therapist. Same. I'm not.

Raymond: 28:14 How do you get them in that spot?

Jessica Rae: 28:17 It's a lot of talking. I talk a lot. My Camera, I say I talk more than I shoot during a session. And again, I'm not a therapist. I'm not sitting there like, you know, I can help fix your problems or, or, or make everything better. But sometimes people just need somebody there to listen and to relate and to have empathy. And I think that that's, I feel, I think that's what I've learned over these years is that that's what I excel at. And that's what I do. I mean, every single client, I've never had a client leave here without saying, you made this, made me feel so comfortable. Like I have lots of clients that don't come in expecting to get negative. They're like, no, no, I'm not kidding naked. No. End of the session, you're like, okay. And they're walking around my studio naked in front of me and talking to me, and they're like, I did not expect to feel this way. And so I can't tell you what my secret sauce is. I don't know exactly what I do to, to help people to feel that comfortable other than I just talk and I relate and I just tried to connect with them in any possible way that I can.

Raymond: 29:21 Let me ask you a side question. Do you know who Kristin Kalp is? I do not. Okay. Kristen Kalp and I, I don't, I haven't kept up with her in a while. I'm not sure how much she still does, but she did a lot of like copywriting for photographers and in one of our books she says that I maybe it was her email list, but she says that like smalltalk is like the worst thing in the world that like she can imagine she would rather than just like fall into a volcano. Then like make small talk and just like talk about the weather. Would you say that that it's similar for you? Would you rather have someone

Jessica Rae: 29:57 Yeah, it's not small talk. I asked big questions. I tried to go deeper and I always tell people, I'm like, if you're not comfortable talking about this, just tell me to shut up or fuck off. You know, like you don't have to have to talk that. But I, I don't do it in a way that I'm sitting here interviewing them and asking them 20 questions. Right. I'm just naturally letting it come up in conversation. So it might start off as small talk. I'll be like, so you know, like how many kids do you have or do this or what do you do for work? I mean, I need something so sure to start with. Right? So I mean it's gonna start that way, but I also send out pre questionnaires before my sessions that kind of, again, open asking, open ended questions because most people want to talk, right? So if you give them an opportunity to, and that's hard for me because as you can tell, I like to talk is to shut up and listen too. Right? So if I ask somebody something, I just listen and then I engage when I need to to show that empathy and to relate and connect. But at the most time I'm just letting them do most of the talking.

Raymond: 30:58 [Inaudible] Do you think that I take that back. I don't want to, I don't want to load that question. What do you find are some common mistakes that a new boudoir photographers make?

Jessica Rae: 31:10 A feeling like you have to do everything right. 24, seven, right out the gates, whether that's with your shooting style, whether that's with how you're running your business. There is no overnight special secret that's gonna make you an instant success or an instance, you know claimed amazing artists. It's a process and it's a journey and it can be painful and slow Tom Times, but just enjoy the ride. I mean, I blinked and I'm like, how am I here? How am I, you know, how are you sitting here interviewing me right now? I don't remember. Never stop learning. Don't get complacent.

Speaker 6: 31:48 Yeah.

Jessica Rae: 31:49 When you get complacent, you stop learning and then you stop growing and then your work becomes stagnant. I'd say the biggest, yeah, I think it's just, they just feel like they have to get it all right right away. Right out the gate. And it's just, it's not

possible. Yeah. So don't get hung up on that. Be Afraid. Don't be afraid to make mistakes, to experiment, to try new things because the only way that you're going to learn is by doing.

Raymond: 32:16 Would you be, would you be willing to share some of the early mistakes that you made early on that you wished that you didn't

Jessica Rae: 32:24 Like? My husband's looking at me like I got a whole bunch here for you because [inaudible] no they are. I'm, I'm guilty of a lot of this at the, at the beginning I thought I had to light it a certain way. I thought that I had to pose a certain way. I got so hung up on posing early on in my career that I thought it was so important. I mean obviously it is, we don't want to, you know wound another human being by taking an unflattering photo of them and being like, Hey oh see there goes my train wreck again. My brain is just,

Raymond: 33:01 Oh, the window. Ask Your question again. It'll no pocket mistakes I made. Sharing any mistakes that you made early on? Yeah,

Jessica Rae: 33:10 I, I think posing, I think posing was my biggest one. And lighting. Yeah. I felt like I had to do it a certain way and had to look a certain way. People expected a certain thing. And once I finally was just like, why am I stressing about this? I might not even like it at the end of the day. But I did it because I thought that's what the clients wanted or what my peers wanted. And I just was like, I'm just gonna do me. Things got a lot better. And I started attracting the type of client I wanted instead of the type of client I didn't want. I, you know, even as, as recently in the last year I used to do very, my black and whites were super contrast. [inaudible] Super sharp. I'm just like, just have a very specific look. And I was, so I missed film, I wanted greeny gritty, beautiful money, black and whites still with contrast, but like they were just so different than what I had been putting out.

Jessica Rae: 34:14 And I was so afraid to start posting those because I was scared that my clientele wouldn't like it or I mean my peers were less of a concern because I was worried about the people booking me and making me money or like, like they might not like it or they're used to seeing this, this is what they expect from me. And so then I got hung up on the idea of, oh, I need to create a whole separate session experience if they want this and I, and then I didn't produce the work that I wanted to because I got so stuck in this, how do I create the second session? How do I explain this and articulate it to a client so they know the regular Jessica Raila versus the ones she really wants to produce. You know? And, and I, I got hung up on that and I wasted valuable time and I tortured myself without reason until I finally was just like, why am I doing this? Why am I putting other people's perceptions, which I don't even know on myself. And I just said, fuck it. And I, I just went with it and I just fully jumped in both feet and committed. And now I get people messaging me like, Oh my God, I love your grainy black and whites. Oh, I love this. Or Oh, that was why I booked you because I love the way you use the light. And I like this. And I'm like, wow, why was I in my own way for so long?

Raymond: 35:29 I would imagine that that would be incredibly frustrating, especially after putting in all that stress and kind of heartache into a, into that. But I think, you know, I think, I think that you figured out what Vat, a lot of people don't really know what they're looking at when it comes to photography and that, yeah, we as artists, our, our inside of our head all the time and are often the most critical people of our own work. It's funny cause I, I often share in the group that whenever I go to shoot weddings, I'm so critical with my work that when I look at it, I either love it or I or I hate it. Right. When I deliver a wedding, I always find that my brides will like make their profile picture. Like one of the photos that I was like, oh, this is terrible. You know, from a technical standpoint. But that doesn't mean anything to them because that's how they felt.

Jessica Rae: 36:19 Do you know, I think that's one reason I really like the genre of Boudoir. I think that it has the most, this is going to sound weird, but the most room for error, okay. It doesn't have to be perfectly lit and perfectly tack sharp focus. And that's like, oh well it was really dark and I had a shoe at 3000 ISO and my images are super grainy. I meant to do that. Oh, I missed focus. I meant to do that. Oh, there's a motion blur. I meant to do that. Like it, it adds to the art. You know, like I feel like we just have a few more graces in, in this specific genre then you do with others. And again with weddings you can kinda get away with that a little bit. Any genre you, you can, but you know, like the headshot was super noisy or out of focus. You don't go no good. That doesn't work. I'm so I feel like, I guess mood bar is more artistic and you have more, more room for play.

Raymond: 37:23 Do you think that that's just the, the lens that a you've put on it or do you think that that's the thing that's interesting because I think that, I think that a, a kind of what you discovered there is, is really important. You know, cause it's, it's playing around with those settings and figuring out what works and doesn't work. And oftentimes you can find things that you love through a situation that you didn't mean to be in, you know, like by using a slower shutter speed or something like that and giving yourself that. Okay. Is super important. Yeah.

Jessica Rae: 37:52 I can't tell you how many times when I was starting and I was experimenting and I would look at the back of camera and I'd be like, oh, I don't like this. And then I would stop doing it and I moved to something else and then I'd get it on the computer and be like, oh, that didn't suck. And so now I've made a conscious effort when I'm trying something new, shoot at least 10 or 20 frames of that, you know, like, just do it. Be like, you know, it's not my favorite. It's not my go-to. But it doesn't mean it's bad. And you just kind of have to let it percolate a little bit. Sometimes you come back, you're like, okay. Or at least you can look at it and go, I can see what I would do different. All right, but change it. So again, don't be afraid to experiment and just fully commit because I did not do that enough when I first started.

Raymond: 38:35 I'm not sure if there's a way to in this interview, better than that. That last statement was was perfect. It was perfect. So thank you very much for sharing that. Thank you. Jessica. Before I let you go, I want to be conscious of your time. Before I let you go, can you let everybody who's listening know where they can find you online and see more of your work?

Jessica Rae: 38:57 Ah, yes. My website is artist Jessica ray.com and Ray is r a e and all my social media is exactly the same. So facebook.com artists, Jessica Ray, Instagram artist, Jessica Ray. I keep it simple. Yeah.

Raymond: 39:13 And you're going to be doing some teaching soon with the a is it the do more camp or,

Jessica Rae: 39:17 Yeah, camp do more. This will be its second year. Takes place just outside of Toronto and Ontario, Canada, this June. We're sold out this year. But I'll definitely be back next year is the most amazing experience ever. I've been to a few different conferences and retreats and count do more is definitely unique in the way that they have structured things. You can come and just attend. You don't have to take all of the classes. You can just come hang out. Everybody kind of does Durham shootouts and hangs out. I mean, it's Kinda like a n a nudist camp with people wearing cameras running around. It's, it's an incredible experience. But they have a lineup of amazing educators, instructors every year. I think there's like eight, no. Is there that many instructors? There's not that many. I think there's like eight to 10 instructors each year. And it's a variety from business to shoot style to everything in between. I mean, there's definitely something for everyone. I only took two

classes last year just to kind of get my feet wet. This year I'm teaching three classes and I'm going to take every other class I can when I'm not teaching. So

Raymond: 40:35 I recently interviewed a Michael Sasser for the podcast. Yeah. And when I told them that that's, he said he was a, I told him that I was interviewing you and he was a, he was super excited to to, to meet up at that at Camp Dasha.

Jessica Rae: 40:47 Fabulous. I love him. He's a great, I'm excited to get to meet him in person. And I do. Even if you're new and you're feeling intimidated to go to these type of things, please don't. These communities, especially with the booed wire community, I mean, and I think you can attest to this with the wedding industry is huge. There's so many groups, there's so many pockets, there's so many things put voir really is intimate. It's, we're a smaller industry, we're a smaller, you know genre and we are, I don't, I just, everybody I've met has been so awesome and so welcoming and so amazing. And they're all so different. Like it's just great. And I was the number one concern of people that want to attend camp and habit was they were having social anxiety and they were really nervous. I can tell you that probably 85% of the people going have social anxiety. So don't fret color coded. We have color coded name tags. Cause we have this big joke with you more about who's a hugger and who isn't. So we had blue name tags for the people that were like, yes, I'm open for hugs. And red is like maybe once I get to know you are asking me first. So we're very conscious of everybody saying that you wear a blue name tag. I am, yeah, I guess. Yep.

Raymond: 42:09 Well, again, Jessica I want to say thank you again so much for coming on the podcast and sharing everything that you did. I look forward to keeping up with you in the future and I wish you the best of luck at the camp. Do more.

Jessica Rae: 42:20 Great. Thank you so much.

Raymond: 42:22 Oh man, I loved my time in talking with Jessica. She was so insightful, you know so insightful. When I first started photography, I think one of the things that I looked out for most was the technical aspects, right? I wanted a definitive answer on how to do things. From a, from a very technical standpoint, I wanted to know what settings should I use. I wanted to know where I should point the camera, what Lens I should be using. And after this interview with Jessica, it just really reaffirmed that those things don't really matter. I mean they matter to a degree, but it really is you know, how you interact with the camera, how you interact with your clients, how you make your clients feel. And in fact, my biggest takeaway from this episode was, was even though the, how photography was, was kind of became a form of therapy for Jessica, like the self-expression that she found through her photography.

Raymond: 43:21 And it just goes to show, you know, how powerful photography itself can be because we as photographers think that photography is, is his most powerful to the viewer to the person looking at the photo when in fact it can be, which, you know, Jessica is proof of. It can be just as powerful to the photographer as well. So Jessica, if you're listening, I want to thank you so much for sharing everything that you did with the listeners and myself included taking the time out to chat with me. I really did enjoy our time and everything that you shared. So again, Jessica, thank you so much. One last time. I want to again, invite you to subscribe to the podcast so that you can get more weekly interviews with some of the world's best photographers like we got today with Jessica. All right, that is it for this week's interview. Until next week, I want you to get out. I want you to keep shooting. I want you to stay safe, and I want you to focus on yourself. That's it. I'll talk to you next week. Love you all.

outro: 44:21 If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners

of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.

BPP 152: Jessica Rae - Powerful Boudoir Photography

Automated transcription by temi.com

BPP 151: Steve Brokaw - Fashion Photography 101

Steve Brokaw is an Indianapolis Fashion Photographer with more than a decade of experience. Today he breaks down the different types of fashion photography and how to break into the business when just getting started.

Become A Premium Member is access to more in-depth questions that help move you forward!

In This Episode You'll Learn:

• What drives Steve to shoot fashion

• Why fashion photography is not always about hard lines and angry looking models

• The different types of fashion photography

• The job description of a fashion photographer

• How many people are involved in a fashion shoot

• How much styling is needed to shoot fashion

• Who is responsible to find and hire models

• That is is possible to be successful in fashion even if you dont live in Los Angeles of New York

Premium Members Also Learn:

• Step by Step guide to breaking in to fashion photography

• How to book paying fashion shoots

• Who your client is as a fashion photographer

• How to make money as a fashion photographer

Resources:

• Indianapolis Model Photographer Steve Brokaw’s website

• Steve Brokaw on Twitter

• Steve Brokaw on Instagram

• Steve Brokaw on Facebook

Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

Full Interview Transcript:

Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.

Raymond: 00:00 Raymond here from the beginning of photography podcast. And today we're talking all about fashion photography. So let's get into it.

intro: 00:08 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfield, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raymond interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now with you as always, husband, father, home brewer, La Dodger Fan, and Indianapolis wedding photographer, Raymond Hatfield. Welcome back.

Raymond: 00:39 This episode of the beginner photography podcast. I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield. And I cannot tell you how excited I am to be here today. I come up with a lot of interviews, right? It's, it's one every single week that comes out. A new episode comes out every week. And me, I'm a, I'm a wedding photographer, so sometimes it's hard for me to think about other genres, right? Because there's a lot of niches in photography. In fact someone in the group just this week posted a link to somebody who just does photography for book covers. Like that is pretty narrowed down. You know, when you're starting out and you're thinking about becoming a photographer, you're probably not thinking, you know what, I would love to do, just shoot photos for people who are going to use the photos on the covers of books, right? So this podcast is really opened up not only you know, my thoughts on photography, but just open my eyes to how anybody can make it as a photographer, no matter how narrow a they, they go in photography.

Raymond: 01:50 And today we're talking with a fashion photographer in fashion photography. While it's not a as niche down as somebody who just shoots photos for book covers, there are lots of John, like there's, there's sub genres of, of fashion photography. And I didn't know that, but it makes sense. And today we talk about a lot of those and kind of the differences of fashion photography. So this is a really great interview and I'm really excited. I'm really excited and it's with another photographer right here in Indianapolis. So a great, great interview today. The first, I wanted to give a shout out for a iTunes review this week. This week the shout out goes to Deb Reese. This is, this is a fun review. Deb says for anybody looking to learn photography from the ground up. This is your podcast. It's easy to listen to and through a Raymond's interviews and with guests and solo teachings e the podcast answers questions about cameras, equipment and photography that a beginner not even know to ask.

Raymond: 03:02 That is so cool. Deb, thank you so much for that five star iTunes review. If you haven't left a, an an iTunes review, I would, I would ask you to consider doing so. It only takes a moment of your time and who knows? You might just hear a your name here on

the podcast next time I give a shout out. So again, Deb, thank you so much for that review. This weekend, this past weekend, I had a, a wedding. I want to share this real quick. I had a wedding and it was a, it was a smaller wedding. Typically I shoot you know, weddings with about 150 to 200 people. But this wedding that I had on Saturday was just 20 people. It didn't even have a reception. Well, I didn't go to the reception, but the, the ceremony itself was just 20 people.

Raymond: 03:49 It was this couples closest friends and family. It was very intimate. Everybody knew each other, everybody was very well not connected. Of course they're all connected. The family, everybody was just, you know, it was very comfortable. Everybody was very close with each other and there was a different vibe to that wedding than most weddings that I go to. I think when you have like a very large wedding, there's just a lot of moving pieces. And on the wedding day, like over time, that's going to, when you have so many moving pieces that's going to build up stress in a variety, right. Because that takes a lot of just making sure that everything is, is in the right spot. And this wedding that I had on Saturday, it was so stress free and relaxed. And it wasn't even until like moments before the ceremony started, they realized, wait, are we, are we walking out together?

Raymond: 04:41 Do we walk out separately? Like how is this going to work? Because what they knew, they knew the goal of the day was to get married. The goal of the day wasn't put on this show. And it just, it just, everybody had a great time and it was very fun to be a part of. But it was a very interesting ceremony because it took place like in a little conservatory garden with like a waterfall. And it was very, very small, a very tight little area of this conservatory. And even though it was a small wedding with only 20 people, it was packed. I mean, it was tiny. And that made shooting quite a challenge because not only did I have to cover, you know, both sides of the aisle to get his reaction, her reaction, some wides with you know, the guests and then the whole bridal party as well.

Raymond: 05:32 You had to navigate in between people left and right and dodge, you know, it was, it was, it was very challenging. And not only that, but I realized something. I've never photographed a wedding that was behind a waterfall and even though it was just like trickles of water coming down it made autofocus extremely difficult because the camera would want to focus on the waterfall instead of the couple behind the waterfall. So that made it very challenging. But I mounted a GoPro on my camera to to record the whole thing and I'm going to be sharing segments of that in the beginning of photography podcast, Facebook group. So if you want to check that out, I highly encourage you to come join the group and that is just by going on Facebook and searching for beginner photography podcasts and you will, you'll find the group, there's a few questions to answer what you do.

Raymond: 06:23 You're going to be given access to the group and you can check out that video. So I'm excited to share that one. Okay, let's go ahead and get on into today's interview with Steve broke. Off, he broke as a fashion photographer here in Indianapolis. And what you're going to find out is this is a very not technical, but v like very like list oriented episode. So Steve shares so many ideas on like, like a workflow of how to get into fashion photography, which is just invaluable. A lot of times I try to ask questions that are about, you know, like your ideas, how do you go about doing something like this? And when Steve Does, he says, you need this, you need that, you need to do this thing, and then you need to do these things in that order and then get that done before moving on to this step. And it was very eyeopening into how much goes into fashion photography. So you're really gonna enjoy this one too. If you're not driving bust down a pen and a pad to go ahead and write down all the ideas just to keep up with this interview. So let's go ahead and get on into this interview right now with Steve Brokaw. Okay.

Raymond: 07:35 Today's guest is Steve Brokaw, a fashion photographer from right here in Indianapolis today. I'm excited to talk about the wild and sometimes unknown world of fashion photography. So Steve, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Steve Brokaw: 07:48 Oh, thanks Raymond. I really appreciate it. Sounds like it's gonna be a good time.

Raymond: 07:51 I'm excited because fashion photography is something that a me along with a lot of other new photographers know nothing about. We kind of look at it as like this wild west. And I think now that as, as as time goes on with Instagram influencers, lifestyle photography, there's, there's become so many kind of sub genres that the whole industry of fashion photography kind of gets a little gray. So again, I'm excited to have you here today and, and talk to you about your experience. Perfect. Yeah. So before we get into all that, you have had an extensive career or, or time with being behind the camera. Can you tell me how you got your start in photography?

Steve Brokaw: 08:34 Yeah, I been a photographer, I guess since I was a kid. So I've always had a camera in my hand in probably about, I'm going to say almost 20 years ago I started to get more serious about, you know, doing this on a regular basis. I was working professionally in the finance world, so I was had a corporate gig. And what I was doing was doing, before it was even called street photography, I was doing a lot of, you know, it's going out in the street whenever I traveled on business and just photographing all types of scenes. But what I was finding that over time I was doing more like when I've looked at my photos, there was focus on people and a focus on like stylish looking people or people that were wearing something unusual or people that you know, just stood out in the crowd.

Steve Brokaw: 09:24 So what I understood in looking at those images was that I really enjoyed what I would call portrait people, beauty photography. And so I started to do that more as my main focus. And what I found out was to be able to do that. You really needed to an environment to do it in. So about 12 years ago, I set up a studio here in downtown Indianapolis and that's pretty much all I've been doing since then is just focusing almost exclusively on really three John Arras fashion, beauty and portrait photography in primarily a studio setting. And it's gotten so active that a couple of years ago I retired from my corporate gig and have been focusing almost exclusively on doing this on a studio setting. So it's really been a lot of fun. It's been quite a trip.

Raymond: 10:12 Yeah, that sounds like quite a trip for sure. Especially to find kind of that, that passion for something new, this new hobby that got you really excited while still working in the corporate world. Ubut I want to, I want to go back to that moment for,ufor a minute. I want to know kind of kind of when you first picked up the camera, so when you first picked up the camera, the, these are gonna be film cameras, correct? Right. Okay. So, so,uI, I want to know, can you talk to me about kind of that,ulearning process of having to take a photo, wait until you saw the photo and then make decisions based on that? How, how did you best learn photography?

Steve Brokaw: 10:52 You have photography, whether it's film or digital, I think it has the same process. It's just a different workflow. Yeah. And for me, you know, it was enjoyable just getting out with something and trying to capture an image. And what's, what I find exciting about it and what I think it gets a lot of people into it is that it's a moment in time. So you take a picture of something, whether it's a, a dog running across a your backyard or it's a on a vacation or it's your first, your first child's first time of walking, whatever it is. That picture will only occur that one time. Yeah. And so what I found was there was a real passion for me and I think for a lot of people of capturing moments. And so that's the classic snapshots. And what I was finding is that when I was looking at all my pictures there were a lot of snapshots.

Steve Brokaw: 11:44 And so you take a roll of film 36 or 24, and there might be two or three images that you know, you keep in a good, in a good role. Yeah. Yeah. but then it slowly migrated to digital, but it's the same process. And that is you have to see something in your mind, you know, hey, I really liked to capture, I'm going to go on a trip to Yosemite and I wanted to photograph some some mountains and some trails and some wildlife. And you do that and you come back and you look at the image and say, ah, you know, they were all kind of overexposed. So what do I have to do with, whether it's a film or digital camera to make the the light correct. Or you take a picture of a your first child or your girlfriend or your boyfriend, and you look at the faces, oh man, it's too red, or it's too dark, or wow, you know, we were on beach, but all the, the faces is too dark while I was shooting with the sun in the back. So from that, you look at those images and you try to figure out what do I need to do to get better? And just over time you do start getting better. You find out, you know what, this camera doesn't work for me anymore. I need something a little bit better. So it's a process and it's a process of learning, developing what's in your eye, what you like shooting, and then improving it over and over and over again. So it's, it's a it's a long journey.

Raymond: 13:03 Yeah. Well, you know, what I picked up most from that is that is the amount of time that it takes. It does, you know, it's not it's not as instant. Even though now we can take a photo and just look at the back of the camera and have that instant gratification, that doesn't mean that whatever lessons you need to learn from that photo are going to sink in right away. And as, as you were just saying, you know, you spend the time behind the camera and you, you really can't really can't go wrong. You can't help it get better if if you really do that. Right.

Steve Brokaw: 13:28 Yeah. I think one of the challenges that people have today, and this is one of the things that was an advantage of film, but I don't want to say, Hey, film is better than digital. It's not, it's just another way of capturing an image. But in today's environment, you have a cell phone. Everybody has a camera essentially. And I think what happens a lot of times is the people, especially with social media, they just want to put something up. They want to get something on their Instagram, on their Facebook, on snapchat. They want to send something to their friends. And so what happens is that the quality of the images and as important as just getting some content out there. And so I think to a certain extent there is a difference between taking a photograph and taking something just to record it. And so what happens is that I think that if you're using a camera in you're doing it on purpose, it kind of forces you to get better.

Steve Brokaw: 14:21 Because you do look at that image and you say, you know, boy, this just doesn't look, this doesn't look nice. The skin is too red or the hair's all messed up or you know, the background doesn't work correctly. And so I think that is, if you're doing photography for my intentional purpose, it really forces you to get better. Versus if you're just taking snapshots to post on content, unless you're an influencer or unless you do this, you know, because you want really high quality content. I think a cell phone can make you a little sloppy to be honest with you, especially if you're going to put in a lot of filters. If you're going to use a lot of you know, just take 58 shots and just find the one that you liked the best. You know, if you're doing that professionally, you're doing that with a client.

Steve Brokaw: 15:06 You can't do that. I mean, you know, you'll have the, your work with that client once. So I do think that, you know, you really kind of need to focus on what you want to do with your photography. And if you just want to take snapshots and put it up on Instagram, just, you know, just do it. Yeah. But if you want to do it where you're starting photographer and you may want to do it professionally or you just want to do it for a hobby and want people to look at your image and say, wow, this is really nice. You need to do it with an intent and you need to learn. You need to develop. But it happens over time. It doesn't

happen right away. And that's one of the big challenges that I think a lot of people have. They see a photographer, they see Instagram images and they think, wow, that's so good. I want to do that. And they get very frustrated because, you know, they don't see that image quality right away. And so there's, okay, well I need to get a better camera. No, you don't need a better camera or I need better lights. No, you don't need better lights. You just need to improve your eye. So it is a process.

Raymond: 16:04 So how do you improve your, I if, say, I, I kind of take me back to when you were doing street photography right before you were even really considering doing this professionally or going into this field w w w would you say that you had an ability to see lines and light while you were out or how did that develop?

Steve Brokaw: 16:24 No, not at all. Not at the start. I mean, when I first started, you've look at images and you think, man, these are great. I mean, I'm just the best. And then you show it to somebody else and they say, oh, it's nice where you put it up on Instagram or Facebook. And I mean, I was doing it before those, but you know, you put it up today and you get, you know, 25 30 likes and you think my, I'm, I'm the best. But you put it in front of somebody who does it professionally or you look at high quality content, somebody you inspire to be like, and you look at it and you'll say, Ooh, this isn't good. And so it's just over time. So a good example is like with street photography. I've got a good friend Valerie Jardin who I think you've interviewed recently.

Steve Brokaw: 17:06 Absolutely. And she was one of the people that I used to follow and I used to get inspired by, she has a very unique eye. She has a very unique way of using light. And so she was somebody that inspired me on the street photography side. And so I would look at her images and I would say, OK, I, I see how you're using light. I see how you're interacting with people in the scene. So you, you get inspiration from people like that and you look at their work, you don't necessarily copy it, but you get inspiration from it. So let's say you're doing landscape work and you're brand new landscape photographer, well then what you do is you go and you look at other landscape photographers that inspire you. You know, you go on to Pinterest, you go to Instagram, that you use hashtags to find the work and you see their work and see what makes it nice.

Steve Brokaw: 17:54 What, what inspires me is it the saturation is, it's the way they use the light and you get that inspiration. Then you go out and you practice and there's nothing that can be practice. And so you just go out, you know, you take your camera with you all your every day, you keep it in your car and you keep it in your purse, keep it in your backpack. And when you go out and you see something, you know, you're out at lunch, take some shots you're on a vacation, take some shots and just constantly work at it. So it's a, it's a process. It's an evolution and you've just got to constantly look at yours, your work, you've got to self criticize yourself, you've got to figure out what worked, what didn't work, and then, you know, you put it back out there and you try again.

Steve Brokaw: 18:36 The other thing that's important and I think this is really nice that a lot of people have today that I didn't have when I was first starting out, is that there is this social ability and because of this social ability, you can put your content out there and you can ask really high quality photographers, what do you think about this? And most of those photographers will take time and they'll respond back to you. You'll connect with them, whereas you can never do that previously. Right? And you know, a lot of times photographers will want to help other photographers and they'll tell you, you know what, I love your work, but maybe you ought to take a look at the way the sun is hitting the face of an individual. Or you know, you're doing too much. Backlighting so practice, look at things that inspire you look at individuals and inspire you and to just go out and practice, practice, practice.

Raymond: 19:30 That was like super actionable. If anybody is listening right now and didn't take anything away from that, then, then they're just not listening.

Steve Brokaw: 19:36 Yeah. And I think that's one of the things that's important too is a lot of people say, well, you know, I look at somebody, let's say like a a Valerie Jardin. And she travels all over the world and she goes to different locations and, and so, you know, it's because of her location and now she gets good shots because you know, she's in Paris or, well, you know, she's sponsored by Fuji, so she has some of the nice cameras. No, no, that's not it. You know, if you gave her an inexpensive camera and put her in a small town USA, she feels still get amazing work.

Raymond: 20:05 I would love to do that. I've bet that she would thrive in a situation.

Steve Brokaw: 20:07 Oh yeah. It's great because she has that. I so the way you get that high is you just practice. So like I said, if you have a, if you're just starting out and you have a brand new camera that you know your parents got to at Costco, or you just, you have your cell phone, just go out and shoot some shots and you can select something. So let's say today I'm going to shoot the color green, so you go out and I'm just gonna keep my eye open for things that are green or I'm going to just shoot shadows. You know, people walking through shadows or I'm gonna photograph doors. So come up with a concept and then go out and shoot it, and you do it over and over and over and over again, and you'll find out pretty, pretty soon. You know, I'm the best person that I know that she had stores. Yeah. So, you know, I can't stress this enough. It's about practice and just being there. If you don't have your camera, it doesn't help.

Raymond: 20:59 Yeah. Oh my gosh. That was, that was great. Thank you so much for sharing that. So, okay, so we've talked a little bit about street photography there. Let's transition a little bit more into the fashion side of things. You mentioned that going out, you noticed that a lot of your photos have a similar aesthetic and it seemed kind of a fashion. When did you decide to like with intention move towards fashion photography?

Steve Brokaw: 21:26 I'm gonna say probably about 10 years ago. And I think it's important that people understand when, when I talk about or in concept of fashion, fashion is a, is a, is a broad Gianna. So essentially what you're doing is that there is really very few pure fashion photographers that all they do is photograph clothing or they photograph a scene for a magazine. Generally when people say they're a fashion photographer, they're shooting people, they're shooting beauty work, the shooting portfolio work. And that almost always includes fashion along with it. So as an example, if we did a typical portfolio shoot for an agency, that model is going to have fashion brought in or they're going to bring in fashion themselves and the photographer or the art director is going to say, you know what? We need to have five different looks. We need two casual looks to let's say more of a, a business style look in one high end fashion.

Steve Brokaw: 22:31 So you'll work with a designer, you'll work with a store or your work with the, the model, and they'll bring in those clothes. And so fashion is part of it. So you're doing a portfolio shoot that includes fashion. So it's important that when a lot of people say, Hey, I'm a fashion photographer, they think, okay, I'm just doing work for, you know, a high end brand. Very few people do that. Yeah. But what I found was that I migrated to that because honestly it was part of, of the beauty work I was doing. And also it's a very challenging r form because what happens is that you have to mix it with proper lighting. You have to match it with proper editing. You have to have the correct environment. You're working with a lot of people because you could have the best fashion in the world.

Steve Brokaw: 23:21 But if the, the model or the subject has terrible makeup or terrible hair, they're not going to be looking at the fashion because they're going to be distracted by the fact that the hair's flying away. Of course. Or if you may have the best fashion designer come in and you might have the best camera in the world, but your editing skills are terrible, then your clothing looks poor. You may have the best fashion, the best editing skills, you don't light it correctly. And so the top of everything looks well lit, but now the bottom of the clothing looks poor. So what I really liked about it was the, in the immense challenge of doing that type of photography so that you could have an image that came out and like, wow, that's really something else.

Raymond: 24:02 Yeah, it sounds incredibly challenging. In fact, just the other day, somebody in the, a beginner photography podcast, Facebook group posted something, I believe that they posted a photo and asked how they could edit it to look like a fashion shoot. And my response was simply that you know, Photoshop doesn't make a fashion photographer. Right. I would argue that if that was the case, anybody could show up, take any photo that they wanted and then create a fashion photo out of it. And I would argue that as a fashion photographer, you have to know your camera, your lighting, your composition, your interaction with with a model more than just about anybody else. Right? And then the editing is just kind of on top. Is that, does that sound about right? Just on top?

Steve Brokaw: 24:47 Yeah, I think so think about a f f. Let's say you're just starting out and you want to do a a fashion shoot or you want to do a, a fashion centric photo shoot. You, you have to have basically everything. And when I say everything, first of all, you have to have the proper equipment. So it's just assumed because we're talking about a photography podcast that everyone's going to have a camera and have a basic skill level of, you know, how to turn it on, you know, how to shoot you know, in raw or you need to, you can shoot in manual. But maybe you're still an auto, but you have to have the basics, understanding of your equipment. Secondly, is you need to have a location. So, you know, is it going to be in your house? Is it going to be outside?

Steve Brokaw: 25:32 Is it going to be an a studio? Is we're going to be some sort of a, a street scene? You have to understand what the location is. And so if you have a location, how are you gonna control the sound? How are you going to control the temperature, the wind people walking behind you? So that has to be thought out, the logistics of it. Then you have to have the, the people that go into it. So let's say that you have three pieces of clothing that you want to shoot. Well, you need the proper model that's going to wear those clothes. It's got a compliment. Their skin's got a compliment, their hair color. You have to have the proper person for that because that has to be so the clothing fits correctly on the person. Then you have to decide about the hair and makeup.

Steve Brokaw: 26:15 Okay. You're going to have the model do it themselves. A you going to do it yourself, you're going to bring in a team. How do you hire that team? What do you get that team? Then you have to physically do the shoot. So you have to coordinate it, get everybody there on time. You have to make sure it really shows up. It's going to be a long shoot. Three, four hours are going to have clothing. What about, you know, some place to go to the bathroom, someplace to change. Then once you do that, then you actually have to edit images. So the editing is going to be done, but to get you to just light roam, am I gonna use capture one? Am I gonna use you know, Photoshop, then you have to deliver your product to your client. So is that client the model? Is it a boutique, you know, do they want it so they're going to blow it up on a, on a billboard or are they going to put it just on their Instagram page so that determines the size? You know, what type of format? Is it appropriate? Is it consistent across all sh, you know, all images. So you don't have the color grading a different in every shot. So it is a very, very broad thing. And that's what I kind of, I like about it

Raymond: 27:21 It sounds like it.

Steve Brokaw: 27:23 It's a very complex process, but at the same time, that shouldn't discourage people. And the reason is, is that that is, that's the, the far end. But very rarely does somebody come in knowing everything about it. So you could have a friend, you could have your camera, you could have them wear something, you could go outside and you could practice with light, you know, in the shade, you know, out in the street. Get a piece of white foam core and use it as a reflector. Put something in front of the Lens. Have some hair, some wind blowing through their hair. You could do all types of things and you could just do it in your backyard. You could practice that and you could say, wow, that's really good. Okay, now what I'm going to do that's different. So now I'm going to have something where it's not going to be out in my backyard.

Steve Brokaw: 28:12 It's going to be against a white wall or it's gonna sell. Okay? It's against a white wall. So you're going to do it inside your house, but now you have a lighting issue. Okay? So what I'm going to do with lights am I gonna use the overhead lights. Well, now you've got a temperature issue, you know, color, temperature issue. Am I going to use a window light? How am I going to avoid harsh versus soft light? So that's the way, just with some very basic stuff, you can do some amazing work. And again, it's something you just build up on.

Raymond: 28:39 Yeah. Clearly just grows over time. It does almost with like any hobby. But I love your technical approach to it. I love that you're breaking it down step by step. And I know that anybody who's listening once again, who is interested in fashion photography at all is really going to enjoy everything that you shared there. Yeah. So when it comes to models though I think me personally as somebody whose never shot fashion before, whenever, I don't even know like all of the sub genres of fashion photography. But I would say that if you were to just ask me to do a fashion shoot and it would come to like the posing of the model, I would think that they did the models that fashion photography is all about like hard lines and angry looking models. Is that, is that right at all? Am I like very far off?

Steve Brokaw: 29:27 Well, I'm not very far off. So a lot of people think about when you talk about fashion photography, most people think of two things. So number one is what's called commercial or catalog work. So let's say you go to go on online and you look at Kohl's and you'll see the focuses on very clean, easily, very smiley, very well lit evenly lit look. So that's more for your showing off the clothing. So basically the model, and I hate to use this word as a coat hanger, they're just sitting there. They're just keeping the clothes up there, properly fitting the clothes. But that's not the main focus of the focuses of the clothing. Then there's editorial and editorial is what a lot of people think about. So that's the runway models. That's the the, the magazines. That's usually the moody looks not smiling.

Steve Brokaw: 30:26 Generally you can have all types of fashion but the idea is that you're setting a mood and the mood is what attracts people. So you see some let's say some very hard looking people or you see some hard lighting and it's a very dramatic look, okay, I want to look that way. So if I wear these clothes, I'm gonna look that way. Well, maybe, but it's the whole set up. So then there's other sub genres. So there's there's like lifestyle. So let's say you see a photograph of a Starbucks coffee and you see two people sitting at a table and a Starbucks, and they're smiling and they're holding their, their lattes. And you know, they look so happy together, see say, man, you know, if I go to Starbucks, that's the way it's going to be for me.

Steve Brokaw: 31:11 Yeah. So that's more of a lifestyle. Or you see somebody coming out of a shop, like a boutique and they're holding two shopping bags and they've got a nice clothing on and they're walking out a big smile on their face. You say, wow, you know, that

person looks amazing and they look so happy. So I better go to that boutique. That's more of a lifestyle. Then you can have others like fitness if you're in it, like in a gym, Yoga shop, I mean yoga a studio, you can have swimsuits, you can have fit models you know, that are a proper, proper size for a specific clothes. So there's all types of genres. But most people think about when you do fashion work, if you're doing something for publication or you're doing something where you want to set a mood, that's editorial photography. And so you want an editorial model.

Steve Brokaw: 31:57 If you're doing something for publication in a catalog or for a website, that's generally a commercial. If you're doing something for somebody who wants content for their influencer page or their Instagram, that's more lifestyle. So there's different types of, of photography and it's a different type of lighting. It's a different type of mood, sometimes the different type of model. And so you have to really understand what the client wants. So if you're starting out and you see somebody come to you a local boutique and says, Hey, I'd like you to shoot for me and let's say you've never done it before. The first thing you need to ask them is what style do you want? You know, is this going to go into into a magazine? Is it going to go on your website? Do you just need content for your Instagram? Or is this gonna go into a publication? In what type of shop is it, is as a youth shop? Is it a you know, it's nothing but hope to tour is it reconstructed fabric clothing. So you have to really understand what you're shooting and that's going to determine, you know, the style of your shoot and who you hire for it.

Raymond: 33:03 Yeah, I would imagine I feel already a bit overwhelmed with the amount that goes into fashion photography. I'm glad that there's others in the world like you who thrive in conditions like this. So let's say that a, we, that a, the boutique comes to us and they say, this is what we want. We know what style we want. Here's the clothes do it on you as the fashion photographer to hire the model and even do the what's the word I'm looking for? Just like the fashion styling, the styling or is it on them? How does that work?

Steve Brokaw: 33:39 Yeah, it's really depending upon both the client, the budget, your experience you know, the, the equipment, the location. But bottom line is fundamentally the person that's hiring you. So let's say there's a local boutique that's launching a spring line that's coming in and they've hired you because they've heard your name or they're, you're the friend of somebody to do the photography. So you're the one that's being hired. You're the photographer, you are responsible for basically everything. So unless there's an art director or a creative director who's hired you, the photographer is the one that basically does everything. You are the boss. So what'll happen then is that you have to determine, again, it's based upon the budget, you know, if it's for free, you know, a time for print type of setup, or if it's a page shoot, you have to determine what the budget allows.

Steve Brokaw: 34:37 So let's say that the boutique is going to pay you $200 and in return they get 10 images. Okay. So I'm just throwing those things out. Sure. And they're gonna use those for their online website and they want a consistent look, which means they want just one model. So, and they want it against they have a wall in their shop and it's a white wall and we want everything shot against that. Okay, well then you know where your location is, but you need to hire a model. So the first thing you need to ask is what type of clothing it's, is it a youth closing? Is it a more professional styles? You know, like going after work, I'm going for work. You know, what's that clothing like? And then based on that, you determine what type of model you want. And then you can either hire a friend somebody that they've recommended or you can go to an agency and hire the model.

Steve Brokaw: 35:35 Then you need to hire, determine if based upon the model and your budget, do you need somebody to work on hair and makeup? If it's something that's going to be a distance where you're focusing on clothing, it's not that critical, but you want to

have somebody that can do their hair and makeup because it's a full package. Yeah. But it's the photographer that plans all that out. And, and so it's something where generally somebody who's just starting out and the best thing to do is to apprentice with somebody or to assist somebody. Because you know, really there's no book that you can read. I mean there's a lot of websites, there's a lot of youtube videos on how to do it, but the best thing to do is just get in there and start doing it in the best way to do it without looking like a complete idiot is to be an assistant for some shoes.

Steve Brokaw: 36:18 But you don't, there's some basics. The basics are you need to know where the location is. Is it going to be street work so you can just do it outside on the street? Like on the sidewalk in front of the Boutique, is it inside the boutique or do you need to rent a studio? Then there's the lighting. How do they want it lit? They want a well lit because it's going to be in a catalog. Okay. You need some sort of lighting. So is that going to be studio lighting? Is it going to be ambient lighting or is it going to be sunlight? Then you have to determine, okay, if it's sunlight, what's the weather like? Is it going to be cloudy? You know, is it gonna rain? Is it going to be a studio? Okay. Is there a studio? Does a studio come with equipment?

Steve Brokaw: 36:59 Do you have to bring my own equipment? What's the cost? So you have a location issue, then you have an issue about the model, you know, do a higher model, you're going to provide the model for me. What's the budget for the model? You know? Then once you know what the budget is, who do I hire? Do I go to an agency? So there's some basic steps that you can follow. Sure. and it's really just a checklist type of thing that you can do, but once you do it once or twice, you find out it's fairly easy. Yeah. But what a lot of the same steps. It's always the same step. It's, it's a workflow.

Raymond: 37:33 So you mentioned obviously the agency, they're a modeling agency. When I think of an agency, I think of like, like having the like hire a model I guess, which, which is the point. So that I didn't get my point across there very well, but I'm thinking like as a, a, as a photographer maybe first time, second time only done this a handful of times. Are we okay? Too small to use an agency? How, how, how big of a job are we looking at to utilize something like that?

Steve Brokaw: 38:00 No, an agency is a business in the businesses to make money. And the way they make money is to book out models. So they are, they're representing models. And so an agency will, they do a lot of other things. They develop models, they place models, but fundamentally their job is to put models out to clients that are going to use that model to be photographed. Yeah. And so they do that for a fee and you pay the agency a fee. And for that fee they will tell you, you know, this is, we can make available. And you either direct book, somebody, say, I want, you know, this person, this, this male model that's on yet on your website or you do a casting where you say, you know, send me a f five comp cards of a six foot, two inch guys because I'm doing a shoot for a, a brand that, you know, once a photographic guy.

Steve Brokaw: 38:58 So you're working with that agency and they provide you a list of models that are available to for hire. Then they, it's just basically like any other business, you know, when do you need them? You know, will it be food provided? How long do you need them? This is how we'll invoice you, what your licensing needs. So it's a basic fundamental process. The challenges with hiring a model is that they're going, the agency is going to check you out. Sure. they're going to want to make sure that you have a reasonable reputation. You know, what's your fee structure? So if you say, Hey, look, I'm going to pay $100 for a four hours, well, they're not going to send you their top model. If they're going to send you probably somebody that's in development a new phase. And if for something that's, let's say starting

photographer, that's fine, you know you may have to spend a little bit of time of coaching them or directing them or posing them because they're new.

Steve Brokaw: 39:56 But if you have a big budget and you direct hire somebody and say, you know, I want this model and they've been on the board for, you know, five, six years, you may not need to direct them. May you just show them the mood board and they go, so I'm working with an agency can be frustrating the first time or two. But fundamentally it's like, it's no different than hiring a plumber. Actually, you know, you call up the company and say, this is my job, this is what I need. They'll say, okay, this is who we have available and this is our rate. And use decide whether you want it. And they come in and they show up and they do the work and they leave. It's fundamentally that way.

Raymond: 40:32 So with a plumber, I know nothing about plumbing, so it makes sense that I'm going to reach out and hire a professional. Otherwise I would do it myself. But with fashion photography do you have to have any sort of fashion sense personally too? Do you think be able to thrive as a fashion photographer? Yeah,

Steve Brokaw: 40:53 Yeah. You need to know the industry. You need to know style. You're not necessarily the person that's going to be doing the styling, but you need to know that, okay, if you're shooting you know, you're shooting a male model and you're shooting for a boutique you need to know how to pose them. You need to know what looks good together. You need to be able to watch the clothing to make sure that it's sitting correctly. You've got the buttons buttoned up correctly. If, if it's a fashion where they've not taken the tags off because they can just put it right back up on the rack, you need to make sure the tags aren't showing you know, so yeah, you need to have a sense of what looks good and what doesn't look good. You also need to understand how the lighting works.

Steve Brokaw: 41:40 You know, this pose may not be appropriate for the scene. So yeah, you need to have a certain sense of it. And the way that it's very, very simple to figure this out and the best way to do as if this is something you're serious about doing, then you don't need to take a class on it. You don't need to go to school on it. Just get some fashion magazines read them, look at them. You know, this is the classic look of the pictures and, you know, just understand, you know, how does that, how are people being posed? What does the fashion look like? You know, is it age appropriate? What does their hair look like relative to the fashion? What type of makeup is being used relative to the fashion and what you'll find over time as the photographer, you know, because you're controlling things.

Steve Brokaw: 42:22 If a model comes in and you're doing something very youth like let's say it's a a 16 year old model and they're doing for a youth boutique and the makeup artist puts some really over the top makeup on, you know, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, that, that doesn't work. That's, yeah, that's more of an editorial style. But if you don't understand that, then you're going to have these images where it's very youthful looking, but you've got makeup that's not appropriate. Or if you're going to do something where you know, it's going to show off certain, let's say the top well you've got to make sure that, you know, the, the setting is correct. So the top set comes out and you've got to make sure that, you know, the the makeup or the hair doesn't cover the theme, it doesn't take over. So you need to understand this stuff. And so there is a certain amount of, of training that you need to have an understanding of the industry. The other thing that's really important is that you have to understand what's in style.

Raymond: 43:19 Yeah. I mean, and for that reason alone, I don't think I can ever be a fashion photographer.

Steve Brokaw: 43:25 Yeah. I mean, you know, the thing is, is that that's why a lot of times I leave the the styling to a stylist because you know you know, what may look good for

me, we know what's good in my eye. Maybe a little outdated. It may not be contemporary for today. It may have been contemporary two seasons ago. So you do have to have a sense of style. You have to sense of what's contemporary today. And that's why there's a designers and there's a stylists out there that do that for you. Yes. Yeah. Well,

Raymond: 43:56 Thank God for stylist. They're helping all the people like me at least hit

Steve Brokaw: 44:01 The US. Is that one of the things about fashion, beauty, portrait photography is that it's truly a teamwork sport. You're not a a senior photographer. It's not like landscape photography or street photography and just go out and do it yourself. What you need to do is you need to be good at what you do. So if you're a photographer and you want to get into that, Gianna, you have to understand your aspects of it, how to use your camera, how to light, how to edit, how to do the business skills. But you're not going to learn how to do makeup. You're not going to learn how to do hairstyling. You're not going to learn how to design fashion. You're not going to learn how to dress somebody. That's why there are people who that's what they do. So in this industry, it's all about building a team and making sure that you know who's reliable, who has, you know, it's on point for their team, for their skillset, and you bring them together, whether it's a collaboration or it's a page shoot.

Steve Brokaw: 45:00 And so really as a beginning photographer who thinks, oh my gosh, this is amazingly complex. And so I don't want to get into it, but I really want to get into fashion photography, but I can't because it's so complex. Just focus on your thing. You become good at your thing, but start collaborating with people who are good at their thing and then form that team. And you could have, you know, I have the same makeup artists. I go to all the time, the same hairstylists all the time. I have one model I work with all the time or a couple of models or I have one agency that I work with all the time. Just keep working with them. But focus on yours, part of the the shoot of course. Yeah. As somebody just starting looking to bring somebody on, what position would you recommend to be the first to bring on, to build your team? Probably the model last. Generally speaking in a, in the fashion world. So if you're really truly interested in going to fashion, the person that generally I hire first is the makeup artist. Because the makeup artists compliments the clothing, compliments the face, compliments the mood. So if you have somebody that is excuse me a second. Oh, no worries.

Steve Brokaw: 46:16 For some reason I'm going to turn my phone on mute. Sorry about that.

Raymond: 46:21 No worries at all. Are connected world. I get it. Trust me. I know. Suddenly my phone rings. It's the phone, it's the iPad. It's the kid's iPad out there in the living room. Our computer, oh my goodness. My watch now. So yeah, I just got a new watch and it rings there. So generally if you're going to go into the fashion in

Steve Brokaw: 46:43 World ultimately you need to have a team. But generally what I do is that I've worked with makeup artists first. And the reason is, is that the makeup on a fashion shoot is just as important as the clothing. So the clothing will change. The people you work with, the designers may change, the stylists may change. The stores that you work with may change, but you can use the same makeup artists constantly. Yeah. And so generally what will happen is, is that you start working with a makeup artist and they'll start understanding what's your style is they'll start understanding, okay, this is going to be a standard editorial beauty shoot. We're going to be focusing on waist up and we're going to be focusing on a hairstyle. Okay, well then they're going to know this is the type of makeup we're going to apply on it.

Steve Brokaw: 47:34 You know, once you develop that relationship, they form a critical part of the team. The next person you generally work with is a hairstylist and the hairstylist, sometimes you have both what's called a hair makeup artists where they do both. And in most situations you can work with a hair and makeup artists that, that they do both and that's fine, but sometimes you want to have somebody that specializes. So, like in most of my shoots, I have a separate hair stylist and a makeup artist because somebody, you know, let's say that has really long hair and you need it styled properly you know, they may not know how to do it, you know, so you want to have somebody that that's their skillset. And so sometimes you work with different types of hairstylists. And then lastly, it's usually the the designer or the stylist and sometimes the designer is the stylist. So generally what you do is that you just have a list of people that you work with and based upon, you know, the type of shoot you, you reach out to those people. Then once you have that team put together then you hire the model.

Raymond: 48:44 I want to talk a little bit more now about the business side of being a fashion photographer. As a wedding photographer, a couple, they find me, they pay me money, I show up to their wedding and then it's over. With fashion photography, it's a little bit more complicated. Can you tell me just kind of the basics of how the industry works?

Raymond: 49:03 Hey Raymond here, and if you're listening to this, it means that you are listening to the free version of today's podcast, which means that you are missing out big time. You know, if you become a premium member, not only do you unlock the full interview with today's guests where they share so much more valuable information on how to become a successful photographer, but you also get access to the entire back catalog of past interviews with some of the world's most renowned and experienced photographers who open up and share how they got to where they are and what they would do if they had to start all over again today. Now, if you want to find out, become a premium member by heading over to patriotic.com forward slash beginner photography podcast or just head on over to beginning photography, podcast.com and click the link on our homepage. That's it. I hope to see you there. I was just,

Raymond: 49:55 I just had a an idea, a, and I got this from a video that I saw a long time ago, but something that might be interesting to do as a photographer is not to critique other photos. But like I would say as a fashion photographer, if you see an image or like you know, an advertisement out in the street, you could do like a quick little Instagram story or something of like, you see this like, I really liked this aspect of the photo. This was really great job. You know, photographer captured this thing great. Or something like that or, or give critiques, you know, that, I don't know. I don't

Steve Brokaw: 50:28 Know why I said that. That just popped into my brain or my thought. I know it's good. I think one of the things is it's about social interaction. What I found is that most people like working with people, so they want to make sure that you're a real life person, that you're sociable, that I can interact with you because as a photographer, you're working with another individual in my genre and your Gianna. And so they have to be comfortable with you. So they've got to understand, well, you know, Steve likes cats and he's got a studio and you know, he's of this age group and you know, so he likes this type of music. Well they've found that out because they've may have followed me on my social media. And then so it's more casual, it's more comfortable versus somebody coming in and say, oh my gosh, I gotta work with a guy who's my grandfather's age.

Steve Brokaw: 51:12 And it's maybe a little intimidating cause I've never been into a studio before. I've never worked with a hair and makeup artists. So they're super tense and so it doesn't come out well versus, you know, comfort level of just knowing these things. And the way you do that is by being a real life person on your socials. So it might be simply, you know, you'd go out and on your stories you take an image of a, you know, that billboard and say, you

know, I really liked that. I liked the way that the lighting was done on that. Or you know, you take a picture of outside of our department store of a window with some, some clothing and say, wow, that's really nice. I like the way they've you know, they've set that up. So you know, you show them that that's what you do, that's what you're alive.

Steve Brokaw: 51:51 Looks and I think that that's why the story side of your social media is good cause you can just pretty much put anything on there. Yeah. And there's a lot of people that do very well by developing their following just by developing a good storyline. The thing that I found those, you really need to be consistent with it. So people are watching it because we're looking at it because it's of interest to them. So I've always learned, just don't put anything political out there. Don't put anything that all of a sudden, you know, you want to see a one thing but they throw something else at Ya. So you need to be consistent. So it's just like your style. But it's a good idea. One thing you commented on Raymond, that I am a little uncomfortable with and that's about critiquing people. Sure.

Steve Brokaw: 52:36 what I've learned over time is that everybody has a style. Everybody has a, an interest. What motivates you may not motivate me. And so what I've learned is that I generally don't criticize people's images, even if, even if I've have years of experience and they have, they're just starting out in, they asked me, how's this image look? You know, it's hard to answer cause you're not bad photographer. Well, what I always tell people is that if you like it, then it's good. Right. You know, from a technical aspect, I might have these suggestions, but from a aesthetic standpoint, if you like it, if your friends like it, then it's a good image. Yeah. But, you know, from a technical aspect, I might work on the lighting a little bit, but I don't criticize the photographer and just generally don't criticize the overall, but I might critique an aspect of it, a technical aspect of it.

Raymond: 53:30 Yeah. I apologize if if my intent came off wrong.

Steve Brokaw: 53:33 Not at all. I think what's important though is there's a lot of people, especially new people who once they start getting good, they think that what they can do is they can be a judge. Yeah. They can be a judge. And Trust me, I've had a few people come to me that's like, you know, they, they'll comment on some of my images and, you know, it may be a legit thing, but I sit there and think, okay, well let me look at your stuff. I look at it as like, well, you know, that the lighting is really off on this, so I just, you know, it's about casting stones type of thing.

Raymond: 53:59 Right, right. Exactly, exactly. And it's hard when, like you said, you know, everybody kind of has a different eye. Everybody has a different style. Everybody's life experiences have, have brought them to a different point. And there's a lot of people who shoot, you know, very dark and Moody and there's a lot that you'd very light in area and that doesn't mean that either one is right.

Steve Brokaw: 54:18 Exactly. Yeah. I love that. That's really, really, really important for new photographers especially, is that don't worry about what other people think about your image. If you're just starting out, do it because you're having fun. Don't start off thinking I'm going to do photography to make money. Because if you do, then it becomes a job. Yeah. You know, do it because you enjoy it. Do it because there's a passion. Do it because I would do it even if I don't get paid. That's going to be a successful photographer. But if you say, you know what, I'm going to become a fashion or portrait photographer because you know what? I'm going to make x number of dollars a month and this is going to be my life's goal and my career. Then you know what? You're gonna just have another job. He models, we'll go work at Walmart, you know, because it's an eight to five type of thing.

Raymond: 55:06 Yeah, yeah. Well I don't, I don't know any more of a motivational way to in the podcast than that right there. Steve, that was wonderful. Before I let you go, can you let the listeners know where they can keep up with you online?

Steve Brokaw: 55:20 Sure. I'm pretty active in social media. I'm on Twitter. I go by my name just Steve Brokaw. Almost anything I can be found with that Instagram, Steven Brokaw my commercial site for my portfolio is Steven Brokaw, photography.com. And then as you might know, I also run a modeling agency, or at least I'm the business director of a modeling agency here in town and that seen models.com and I'm sure you can put all the links in the show notes.

Raymond: 55:50 Absolutely, absolutely. Also, side note do you still keep up with your film blog?

Steve Brokaw: 55:56 I do. Yeah. I haven't done anything recently because I,udid a little personal bucket list thing this year. I rode my bicycle across the United States.

Raymond: 56:05 Wow. Really?

Steve Brokaw: 56:06 Yeah. So I left the beginning of the end of February and just got back about two weeks ago. Oh my goodness. So I kind of put everything on, on hold for about about two and a half months.

Raymond: 56:17 Yeah, I would, I would imagine the, the amount of training and the preparation, especially just hearing your, just how your brain works and preparing for a single shoot, how it must be for an entire year planning for that him. But no. Yeah, I do a lot of film. I shoot probably five to six rolls of, you know, every two weeks. So wow. It's just, it's a lot of fun. Yeah. Well, like you said, I will leave links to all of those things in the show notes. Perfect. And Steve, I just gotta thank you so much for sharing everything that you did and I know that the listeners really appreciate it, so thank you. Yeah, I appreciate it too, Raymond, and you know, best of luck on the podcast. I think it's great what you're doing. And you know, we ought to run into each other sometime soon. We're gonna make that happen. Yeah, definitely.

Raymond: 57:01 What did I tell you? Did you fill up a notebook or two? I, I know that I did. This was, this was such a fun interview for me because very, very rarely, you know, do you get a podcast guest who just knows their stuff so well and then lays it out in just such a clear order? Right? There's been plenty of times where, you know, especially because this is like, you know, photography is, is artistic. It's an art and it's hard to put a process on that. But we weren't talking so much about the photography side of the art itself, but how to get, because that's, that's almost the easiest part. It's just doing what you love, right? Creating the art is just doing, finding out what you love and then doing more of that. All of the technicals are what is really going to trip you up, you know?

Raymond: 57:50 Oh, do I hire the makeup artist does a agency hire? But, and, and Steve broke that down today and that, that was so valuable. And I hope that you got a lot out of this interview cause I know that I did. So Steve, if you're listening right now thank you so much for coming on and sharing everything that you did seriously. I mean it was, it was a lot and even expanding on that, just a tiny bit could become a masterclass into becoming a fashion photographer. So again, I think you and I know that the listener, thanks you as well. Okay. That is it for this episode of the beginning of photography podcast. I want you to get out there. I want you to shoot as much as you can. I want you to stay safe. I want you to focus on yourself and let's say, all right, I love you all.

outro: 58:36 If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.

BPP 151: Steve Brokaw - Fashion Photography 101

Automated transcription by temi.com

BPP 150: Michael Sasser - Being a Male Boudoir Photographer

Todays guest is Michael Sasser. Southern Californias premier boudoir photographer. As you might have guessed he is also a male. Today I'm excited to talk about how he built an incredibly strong boudoir brand while facing the challenged of being a male in a predominantly female industry!

Become A Premium Member is access to more in-depth questions that help move you forward!

In This Episode You'll Learn:

• When Michael got started in photography

• Some challenges Michael faced learning photography

• Why Michael got into boudoir

• What is the goal of a successful boudoir shoot

• The challenges Michael faces being a male photographer shooting boudoir

• Some of the terminology Michael

• How to make images that are tasteful and dont get weird and trashy

• 2-3 actionable posing tips new photographers can create

• How to capture women of all sizes beautifully and how to make them comfortable

Premium Members Also Learn:

• Where to shoot and weather or not you need a studio space

• How Michael booked his first boudoir shoot and how it went

• What most clients buy from Michael

Resources:

• Southern California Boudoir Photographer Michael Sasser’s Website

• Follow Michael Sasser’s on Youtube for Boudoir Photography Tips and Education

• Michael Sasser on Instagram

Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

Full Interview Transcription

Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.

Raymond: 00:00:00 Hey Raymond here from the beginning of photography podcast. And today we're talking about booed wire photography from a male photographer. All right, let's get into it.

intro: 00:00:10 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfield, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raymond interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now, with you as always, husband, father, Ho brewer, La Dodger Fan, and Indianapolis wedding photographer Raymond Hatfield.

Raymond: 00:00:39 Back to today's episode of the beginner photography podcast. I am Raymond Hatfield is always your host of the beginner photography. Hi, I just said that. And a wedding photographer here in Indianapolis today is an episode that has been requested by quite a few of the members of the beginner photography podcast Facebook group. It's one of those that a I just haven't done before, and that is with a boudoir photographer. Now before we get into this interview if you don't know what booed wire is, it is intimate portraiture typically with a woman right in front of a camera. So when you hear us talking today kind of imagine that if you haven't seen it before. So I hope that that gives you kind of an idea. Typically it's like it's done either a as a gift or it is a very empowering to be in front of a camera in a very vulnerable state.

Raymond: 00:01:32 So it's, it's been taking off over the past few years and today, like I said, I'm super excited to be talking with not only a male photographer, which is predominantly a female dominated industry I guess or, or is genre. But one who is, who is just done incredible things in, in southern California, in Los Angeles of all places. He has not only made a name for himself, but he has been known as one of the best. So today's episode is, is really great. But first I want to share a little something about this week, this week today if you're listening to daily, this comes out Monday June 3rd, 2019. I'm super excited because I have been working so hard on this new course that is coming out auto to amazing and that is actually being soft launched tomorrow. So the majority of the course is done.

Raymond: 00:02:26 It is finished to this point, right? So now I'm going to invite 50 students to join the Beta launch so that I can get their feedback, make sure that the course is everything that it needs to be, that you learn everything that needs to be learned. Because I want this to be the fastest way to learn how to shoot in manual guaranteed. That's what I want. That is the goal for this course. And I don't just mean I guarantee it. I mean I'm going to guarantee it and that if you don't learn how to shoot manual in 30 after taking the course, then

I'm going to refund you not only all of your money, but 150% of the purchase price. That is how confident I am in this course. So like I said though, the, the Beta launch is gonna open up tomorrow to just 50 students and that is only going to be available to members of the beginning photography podcast, Facebook group.

Raymond: 00:03:20 So there you go. There is a reason, if any, if you haven't already joined the Facebook group too to join is that I do stuff like this for members of the group because well they obviously take their photography seriously. So I will have more information for you, the listeners if you're not already a part of the group in the coming weeks. When I have the official public launch and like I said, you will be the first to know about it. You're on the podcast. So that's it. Okay. Let's go ahead and get on into today's interview. Right now it is with Michael Sasser. Like I said, one of the top Boudoir photographers and he's made a name for himself in La of all places. One of the places where, you know, photographers go to, to be successful. And he has done it. So I had a great talk with Michael Today.

Raymond: 00:04:10 He shared, he's just an open book. He is excited to share about everything and if you get a chance, we talk about it a little bit in the interview, but he has a very, very informative youtube channel with lots of tips specifically for, for Boudoir photographers obviously. And just to hear that male perspective is really, really, really interesting stuff and valuable if you are a male who wants to get into boudoir. And as always, I save a portion of the episode geared specifically towards asking questions about business a and just making money with your photography. And I saved that portion of the podcast episode for premium members of the podcast. So in today's episode, the premium members are going to learn how to interact with a client for the first time in a very vulnerable position. Obviously having a shooting space, whether you can do a shoot in your house or whether or not you need to rent a studio. And some of the perks and downsides of, of owning a studio as well as what sorts of luxury products boudoir or for boudoir clients are purchasing and how you need to be selling those. So if you want to learn all of that becoming premium member by signing up at the beginnerphotographypodcast.com and clicking the premium membership button at the top right of the page. Okay. let's just go ahead and get on into today's interview with Michael Sasser,

Raymond: 00:05:36 Today's guest is Michael Sasser, southern California's premier boudoir photographer. And as you might have guessed by his name, he's also a male. And today I'm excited to talk about how he built an incredibly strong Boudoir brand all facing the challenges of being a male in a predominantly female dominated industry. Would you say that's right?

Michael Sasser: 00:05:57 Uh, yeah, I would say, I mean I don't have the numbers, but if I were to guess, you know, looking at the Facebook groups [inaudible] when I'm clicking for Boire for inspiration in new cities and such, I would say it's about a 90 10 split, something like that for female to male. Yeah,

Raymond: 00:06:09 I was going to think like 98 too. So that's even better. Who knows? Yeah. We got to get a, the Department of Labor Statistics on this, right? Not exactly what that is. So Michael I mentioned that you built quite a big brand of boudoir photography and then southern California, that's no easy feat with a lot of photographers down there. So why don't you tell me how you got your start in photography and the first,

Michael Sasser: 00:06:31 So my start in photography happened in college actually my very first thing that I ever did, I went to Australia to study abroad and I like love taking pictures of sunsets and I want to take better pictures of sunsets and flowers. So I just sort of self- taught, learn, learn my camera and that's, that's how the interest got started. Then when I got back in town back to the states I hopped on craigslist looking for a photography job, you know,

is this possible as a career? I don't know. Let me see what's on craigslist. And a popped up was a youth sports photography job where they would go out and take pictures of their these kids and then you would sell the pictures back to their parents. And that was, that was it. I did customer service for them. They let me take a couple pictures.

Michael Sasser: 00:07:19 I did good enough that they let me start shooting for them. You know, so that, that was my very first photography job and that was, I was, I was like 21. That was like 12 years ago. So since then, I've tried everything under the sun, high school, senior portraits, weddings, headshots you know, pretty much everything except like children and babies. That's pretty much the only thing that I haven't shot. And yeah, I picked up boudoir about six years ago. Just kind of a, was not part of the plan. As I think most people find Boudoir never really part of their plan. They know somebody who shot at or they decided to have the experienced themselves or they or a friend ask them to shoot it and realize that they loved it. And then all of a sudden it's this thing that they really want to make the forefront of their business or identity or anything like that. So started about six years ago, but but about three and a half years ago, I stopped shooting everything. I stopped shooting weddings, head shots high school, senior portraits. I mean, you name it. And I exclusively have been shooting boudoir for the last three and a half years.

Raymond: 00:08:25 Wow. Okay. So there's a lot to unpack there and I definitely want to get into all of that. But let's, let's go back to the beginning. I want to know a little bit more about your experience in Australia with the camera. What was it? Was it just that you liked sunsets and flowers that you decided to go out and buy a camera? Did you already have one at that?

Michael Sasser: 00:08:43 So I didn't, I took like a high school photography class, but I, okay. It wasn't really, it didn't stick with me. It wasn't like, wow, this is amazing and this is something that I want to do and this is I just took a semester of it cause it was easy and I didn't too much of it. And then when I was going to Australia, I actually wasn't going to take a camera. And I remember, I remember my dad asked me, this is before camera phones, you know, it's not like you just had one in your pocket all the time. And he was like, what camera are you taking? I was like, I'm no camera. You know, he's like, he can't go to Australia without a camera. And so we went into like wolf camera or something and bought me a Panasonic fz six, I think it was called maybe fc seven, which is a point and shoot that has a, that has a big telephoto zoom.

Michael Sasser: 00:09:24 So it's any, you know, it's the same version as they have now, but forever goes like six megapixels, 12 x zoom suite. And I pretty much, it stayed in the bag for the first two months, but I started to, yeah, struggle was just really pretty when we would travel places. I would take pictures of, I didn't really understand why people took pictures of people. It didn't make that much sense to me. Like, oh, I know this person. Why do I need a picture of that person? I can just see them whenever it like didn't make sense to me. What I wanted is, wow, I'm going to go to this place. I may never go there again. Let me take a picture of that. And so as I started taking them, I was like, this is good, but I want it to be better. Like how can this be more interesting?

Michael Sasser: 00:10:04 How can it, how can I show what I see? Cause I, cause I wasn't really, I would look at a sunset, I'd be like, this is gorgeous. I take the picture and go, that's not at all what I saw. Yeah. Like what's the disconnect? And so that's, that's really what I wanted to, I want him to like learn that ability. And so we would take trains from from like we would go up to Frasier island from Brisbane. And so in Brisbane we'd go to the train station. I had grabbed popular photography magazine, outdoor Photography magazine, and I would read it cover to cover on the way there, try a few of the things. We'd finished the trip, we'd go

to the train station on the way back and pick up another magazine and I'd, I'd read that. So that's really how I, how I got my first like education based around it.

Michael Sasser: 00:10:53 Down. Did this camera have any sort of manual controls or we, you still pretty much just, it had point shoot that had manual controls. It was like a, the equivalent of 35 millimeters wide, so it wasn't like a wide angle lens. So it was like the equivalent of 35 millimeters wide to like 200 millimeters long. Terrible ISO. I mean if you think about 13 years ago and a one inch sensor, I mean, it was just the w it was just the worst. But I remember one of my big light bulb moments is ridiculous, but there were like chickens and roosters running around wherever we were. And I took a picture of one and it was like blurry and I was like, how do I, how do I stop them in motion? I know I read something about this. What are my settings I'm supposed to do?

Michael Sasser: 00:11:39 And I remember, I think I have to increase the shutter speed, which I did. I was already at the most wide open aperture I had to you know, shorten up the shutter speed, which I did. And that made them stop, but then I couldn't see them because it was too dark. So I was like, what is it? What, how else can I make this brighter? I was like, that's the ISO. And I put the ISO up a little bit and I got a picture of a chicken running and it was, it was, you know, sharp and in focus and I was like, I'm a photographer. And that was a big Aha moment for me. That sort of was like, I can learn this, you know, like this is within my I'm going to be able to create what I want.

Raymond: 00:12:20 Wow. Yeah, that's totally an Aha moment and it makes sense, you know, if when you, when you see that feedback on the back of a camera and you're like, what? Like what is this? What? But then when you actually figure that out, that's got to stick and you gotta be pretty proud of yourself. So that's, that's awesome.

Michael Sasser: 00:12:33 It was awesome. I did, I did stuff like that all the time. I mean, I remember being up late and having that camera and reading about apertures and like just being in my room, taking pictures of my mouse. I would just like take a picture of my mouse at 2.8 take a picture of my mouse at f eight and just kind of go back and forth between those and just see the difference. My bed posts just like midnight, just shooting things and trying a bunch of different settings and the immediate feedback I think is what allowed me to learn as quickly as I did.

Raymond: 00:13:03 That's awesome. That is so cool. So, okay, you got back to the states and then you're like, you know what, I'm going to try this as a thing. You went on craigslist, started looking for jobs, found your job. So at what point, I want to know, did did that studio teach you anything extra that that you didn't know before or was it all basically businessy and sales?

Michael Sasser: 00:13:22 So yeah, so I got back to town. I got my first digital SLR was Thanksgiving and they were having a big sale. So I got, I got one of those. And I think I was just, I think I was just shooting around with it and I sent some pictures to my high school photography teacher and she was like, these are, you know, these are pretty good. Have you ever thought about a career in photography? And I said, ah, come on, give me a break. You know, when I thought of professional photographers, I thought of these people that I had seen online that were just blew my mind. Pictures that I could never imagine taking. And I thought that's the level that you needed to make money in photography. So like interested, pretty good, knows your camera expert known across the world. This is the level that you needed to be to make money with photography.

Michael Sasser: 00:14:13 So I just thought it was kind of wasn't good enough. Expert wasn't good enough. You had to be mad at the alone, you know? And so I think that yeah, so

going through, I didn't really think about it before she mentioned it. So that's when I hopped on craigslist and I was like, what? What can I learn? I was like, sports, that sounds cool. I was like shooting for the school newspaper you know, at college and like shooting some of the sports stuff there. And so when I went there, they taught me I wouldn't say I learned like specifically photography things. I think whatever foundation I had was enough to like get the exposure right, that sort of thing. But I learned a lot on the business side of things, I learned that experience even even though you're taking pictures of kids that are just out on the field and you may never interact with them when they parents come up to look at the pictures, the way that you interact with them really matters.

Michael Sasser: 00:15:13 I'll never forget my boss, Chris, we get the same questions over and over again as any business person does and he would get a question like how many pictures do you guys take during the game? And I'll never forget that. When I first started working there, I heard the answer for the first time and it was, oh, okay, that's okay, now I now I know, but after a hundred times I saw him get asked. Every time he answered it, he answered it like it was the first time he ever heard that question. And that just blew my mind because to us it was like, it's very repetitive. It was almost like annoying. Like, why are you asking this question again? Like, yeah, obviously everybody knows, but the way that he treated them came at it from like a place, I don't want to say empathy, but it's like their question mattered as much as the person who asked the same question four years prior. And so things like that I picked up on as far as you know, how to, how to make the the customer feel important and like guiding them through things and, and things like that. I definitely learned a lot.

Raymond: 00:16:25 I think that's important, you know, as, as, as you get into photography after a while, it really becomes clear that, and I've said this a million times on the podcast, that the photography is, is a service. It's not a product, you know, and nobody wants a, you know, garbage service. Everybody wants great service, even if the product is just all right, you know? And I think that that is potentially, you know, even a bigger lesson than than learning how to be technically perfect with every single one of your photos. So that's a great lesson. Now, I want to know though, when you were talking about making your transition into boudoir photography, you said that a lot of people get into boudoir photography because you know, maybe they've had that experience for themselves or they seen somebody else who did it. Did you have the experience for yourself? Is that how you got into it?

Michael Sasser: 00:17:13 So I did have the experience for myself, but that was a, that was a research after I was already shooting. I was like, what am I, what is it like to be half naked in front of a stranger in a room you've never been in and like be that vulnerable? Like what are my clients really going through? So I did that after I shot boudoir for about a year and a half.

Raymond: 00:17:31 So what got you interested? Like the very first time?

Michael Sasser: 00:17:33 So so I had done two boudoir paid boudoir shoots prior and at some point for like next to no money. I didn't know how to price it. I just, friends reached out to me. They're like, I know you do photography. Would you do something? This for me, I want to give it as a gift or I want to try something like this. But my friend Lynn Clark, who's a boudoir photographer in Denver she said that her friend was putting on a boudoir workshop in Denver, like a practice one before they were going on the road, Patriot Herman and they needed attendees to like give feedback, you know, before they took it on the road. She asked me if I would, if I would come along and be a part of that. They wanted to have a guy there to see like if that dynamic would change or be weird or anything like that.

Michael Sasser: 00:18:22 So I went and it was two days and I learned that the business process of it was the, almost the exact same as what I was doing for high school, senior

portraits minus the subject matter. So she was like first part of the experience you do a pre- consultation. I was like, I do pre consultations. Then you do a photo shoot. Okay. I do a photo shoot. I don't know how to shoot this stuff, but I, you know, I know my camera and then you sell an album. I was like, I sell albums. So I decided that I was going to, you know, give this thing a tribe. I put together a website. I just set up six photo shoots in seven days. I was like, I need a portfolio. I hopped on model mayhem when model mayhem was the thing I posted on Facebook.

Michael Sasser: 00:19:08 I asked some friends and I put together some, you know, a couple of photo shoots, put that website up and then, and then just decided it was something I was going to make a little extra money in the winter time in Denver. It snows, not a whole lot of winter weddings, high school, senior season is in the summer. So the winter time I was pretty much, didn't, didn't have a whole lot to do. So I was like, this'll be great. I'll be able to make an extra five, 600 bucks a session and just do this in the winter time. And and so that's Kinda how I got my, got my start into, into Boudoir. Okay.

Raymond: 00:19:44 So just so that I'm clear, were you living in Denver at the time?

Michael Sasser: 00:19:47 I was living in Denver. I had built my business there. I was, I lived in Denver for about five or six years for about six years at that point.

Michael Sasser: 00:19:54 And I was, I was full time wedding photographer full time wedding video. I shot wedding video as well as doing about 10 high school senior portraits in the summertime. A the occasional a headshot, possibly the offshoot family family portrait, but not really. So you were doing where I was, you were definitely doing work. I was definitely doing work. So the transition was actually coming from knowing a bunch of people in the wedding industry made it easier for me to start getting Boudoir clients. Cause I had just let everybody know, hey guys, I shoot boudoir. Now what ended up happening was a bunch of the photographers were like, maybe if we can get Michael to shoot more booed wire, he'll shoot less weddings. It sounded pretty excited about that. Yeah. so that was great. I shot a couple of the wedding planners there. So that they could have the maybe maybe send me some business that way. That's a good their clients. You know, I just did a couple of things to just let people know.

Raymond: 00:20:56 Okay. So I want to go back now to the to the in person workshop that you did. You said that they wanted to bring a male along to see if that really changed the dynamic. Obviously being a male as we talked about in a predominantly female industry I would imagine that you do face some challenges that maybe female photographers don't. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Michael Sasser: 00:21:17 Yes. the first thing I want to say about that is that boudoir is a, like a super vulnerable experience for anyone. Whether you're photographers, male or female. Like there are barriers that women have to overcome to be comfortable to do this experience. There are going to be you know, they may have things about their body that they don't love, that are going to be exposed. They're going to have, these pictures are going to be immortalized forever. You know, a lot of women you know, they're very hard on themselves and they don't feel like they're photogenic. And it is a stranger and these are pictures and what happens to the pictures and like a million different things. So the first thing to note is if you're, if you're a male watching this know that females also have a battle to fight, to gain comfort with a client.

Michael Sasser: 00:22:06 And then if you're a female watching this also know that just because you're a female doesn't mean you don't have to build trust with a client before they come in. So that's the first thing I'll say. The second thing is yes, I think that males have a there

are certain things about being a male photographer that you have more to overcome. And I think a lot of that is, is trust. I think you have to build more trust that you are a professional, that you're doing this for the right reasons, that you believe in. You know, what is your why, you know, for shooting boudoir for things like you know, I mean essentially those sort of things, those sorts of things. And it's not just, you know, there's a lot of it is because just the people's minds run wild.

Michael Sasser: 00:22:58 Like, what is this space like? Is it dark? Is it, you know, am I going to feel comfortable? What kind of person is he? Is he like a social, like women, even if they feel like it might be an awkward date, they like won't go on the date. So if they feel like it's going to be an awkward experience, that may deter them from going. So you have a lot more trust trust to build. But also there's just a lot of guys out there that are doing it for the wrong reasons. They'll pick up a camera and they'll just, you know, messaged a bunch of girls on Instagram to get them, you know, naked so they can get some pictures of them. And that exists. And so you have to you have to show strongly that you're not, you're not that. And there's, there's a ton of ways to do that. But yeah,

Raymond: 00:23:44 You mentioned earlier sharing your why, why you're doing it. Can you tell us your why? Why do you do boudoir photography?

Michael Sasser: 00:23:50 Yeah. I mean there's a, there's a bunch of you guys I want a little bit of the full explanation or to see, you know, how that is shown on my website. You guys can go check that out if you just Google my name Michael Sasser. But in a, in a simple way to say it. So first of all, your why will change I book my why has changed from when I first started. It was like, honestly, to make a little extra money and then it was to you know, have a, an amazing pictures for their significant other like a cool gift that you can't buy in stores. And then it became a little bit more about the woman hearing stories over and over again about just, you know, women feeling less than, and you know, undeserving of feeling beautiful. And but I've had my own experiences where, you know, somebody that I've been dating, I'll say, you know, Oh, you look really beautiful today.

Michael Sasser: 00:24:46 They'll kind of roll their eyes and say, you have to say that you're my boyfriend. And I'm like, come on. Like the reason, the reason, like I care about you so much and I want you to be happy and I feel these things about you and I'm not lying just to make you feel good. Obviously I'm dating you. I like, I feel these things and I want you to feel them too, but it can get brushed off. So I found that with the camera taking a, taking a good picture, giving them a good experience, showing them that picture on the back of the camera, they can no longer argue with anybody because they're not, it's not somebody saying like, Oh, you look nice. And they're like, I saw myself in the mirror this morning. I know what I live like, you know, really what it is is they, they've got a fight now with this picture that shows that they are beautiful. And at that point they have to make the decision, am have I been lying to myself this whole time? Am I beautiful? Is, you know, is what I've been saying to myself? Is that, is that wrong? Do I deserve to, you know, like the way that I look, all these things that start to challenge their perspective. So a, I love, we do our photography for that reason that it gives the ability to kind of change perspective. So that's a you know, that's probably, that's probably the core of it.

Raymond: 00:26:01 That's a solid reason I would, I mean, just knowing my wife, you know, there's a lot of things I see her differently than she sees herself. Like I know that we both kind of struggled with our weight like our entire lives. And when we first got together we worked on that and we worked really hard. We lost like more than a hundred pounds together and then, but I still now understand what she sees. Yeah. It's all in your head where like you still see yourself at your largest, you still see yourself at your worst, no matter what anybody else

sees or what you know, it shows. So I would, I would imagine that having that definitive experience, like, no, look, you are beautiful would be a really powerful moment for anybody in

Michael Sasser: 00:26:43 Front of the camera. And it's, yeah. For things like that for people who come in and I lost a bunch of weight, but I can't see myself as that new person for people who feel like they had kids and like, okay, I'm a mom now and I don't you know, I guess that part of my life feels like it's gone. For women who just anything for like who are in Instagram a bunch and they see a whole bunch of beautiful women in bikinis run around the world that are just seemed to have be perfect all the time and they, you know, see themselves in the morning with their hair all messed up and they're just like kinda groggy and that's what they're comparing it to. So a million things, but I definitely hear that. I hear I just had a client recently who said, I'm, I love the job that I have.

Michael Sasser: 00:27:27 I'm generally very happy. My significant other says that I'm the most beautiful woman in the world, and then I see a picture of myself and I just hate it. I just hate it. And so I want to be able to see what he keeps telling me and I've heard that good work and can have an effect on that. So so that's like a conversation that I had two days ago with a potential client. And that is, you know, I think that's a lot of what people are looking for. Sometimes people don't know what they're looking for before they come in, but yeah, knowing that, I mean, some women are just, they're like, I just, I'm confident in the way that I look and I just want sexy pictures and that's okay. I've got a handful of those clients every year. But you know, I would say even if that's the case and if you want to shoot, you know, boudoir specifically is this like everyday woman side of things.

Michael Sasser: 00:28:19 Like if you want to shoot come or if you want to shoot for swimsuit brands and you just want to shoot 21 year old models, like that's great too. Like go live it up. That's a super fun job I'm sure. But just to photograph specifically women who've never been in front of the camera, I think it can be helpful for them to, to hear where you're coming from so that when they step, when they do send you that email and they say, okay, I read a little bit about your business and it's not what I was expecting. Like this is, this sounds actually exactly what I'm looking for. And the way you said it resonated with me. Yeah. That is so powerful to start building trust even before you guys get on the phone. Any of that stuff. Yeah, I can totally see how that would be a different why as to being a, to a photographer.

Michael Sasser: 00:29:06 Yeah. You want to create beautiful images and beautiful places and show off you know, brand and the lifestyle of what, what your life could be like if you, you know, wore this product or any of those sort of live in where you, you don't care about any of that stuff. I don't care about the brand. I enjoy it. Yeah. I enjoy like beautiful places, but the brand, I mean, I'm not a good more social photographer. I've tried to like photograph for a lingerie company and then like send those pictures back to the, to the store that like sells a lingerie as kind of a partnership. But I'm just not good at showing off the product. Like I even when women come in and they say, we you know, what do I wear? I'm like, you should like, here's your outfit guide to be flattering, but know that the outfit doesn't really matter as much. Like we're focusing more on you, but go back and look at the pictures and see that the outfit that they're wearing doesn't really matter. And they'll go back and be like, oh, okay. You know that in my head that was the most important part. But actually I see that it doesn't, doesn't matter.

Raymond: 00:30:06 Yeah, that's a good difference. That's a good difference. Okay, well I want you to take me back now. We keep doing this thing where we're like, when you talk about like the past and then the now and then the future. I keep going back, I feel bad, but I want to go back to your first client that you had. You said that it was a friend of yours, they just reach out because they knew that you had a camera. Can you tell me about kind of your mindset for that first shoot and like were you nervous? How did it

Raymond: 00:30:32 Turn out? Hey Raymond here, and if you're listening to this, it means that you are listening to the free version of today's podcast, which means that you are missing out big time. You know, if you become a premium member, not only do you unlock the full interview with today's guests where they share so much more valuable information on how to become a successful photographer, but you also get access to the entire back catalog of past interviews with some of the world's most renowned and experienced photographers who open up and share how they got to where they are and what they would do if they had to start all over again today. Now, if you want to find out, become a premium member by heading over to patreon.com/beginnerphotographypodcast or just head on over to beginner photography, podcast.com and click the link on our homepage. That's it. I hope to see you there. That was a [inaudible]

Raymond: 00:31:25 A ton of really actionable business tips and steps and ideas there. I thank you for sharing those. And again it's one of those things to where kind of why I got into doing this podcast, right? Like I want to talk to photographers who were better than me. And now that I'm asking like more kind of businessy related questions, it is so great to hear other photographers takes, especially on on how many products you should be offering right there. That was, that was key. So again, thank you. So I want to go now in, cause we haven't really talked too much about shooting. Yeah. Really talked too much about the shooting. That is where a lot of people have, I would say like specifically in the group when I asked people if they had any boudoir questions, one of them that came up was about confidence, right? From another male. His name is Shawn. He is shooting a wedding and the bride wants a boudoir session who, which he's never shot before. And he asked, he said how do you make her comfortable and how do you make images that are tasteful and don't cross the line into too much?

Michael Sasser: 00:32:36 That's a really good question. And I think that's one of the things that stops people from shooting booed wires. They're afraid. Like, what's the line between like boudoir car and something that's inappropriate. And and so I had a client during one of the album reveals, she's opening up her album and, and when she finishes she's like, I don't get it. How are they so tasteful? But like I'm naked. She's just like, I, I really am just naked. Like I don't, like it doesn't make sense to a lot of people that the two things can take place at the same time. Sure. So I would say the first thing is, is that your client, your bride has asked you to do these boudoir pictures. So how do you get them comfortable? She's already at some level comfortable because she's asked you, you know, a lot of people think, okay, this person hired me and now I don't know how to make them comfortable.

Michael Sasser: 00:33:29 They just there, you know, like there's already some level of trust built that they trust you to take these pictures so you don't feel like you have to over over comfortable them. That's a great point. Yeah. So that's the first thing is to know that they already trust you. So if somebody asked you your bride, that's awesome. The next thing I would say is that you've got a couple of different perspectives that you can shoot from. And I think this is a, you can shoot for the viewership of many, like what would a lot of people want to see in this woman that's like the popular, that's the commercial, that's the, that's what this photo is for. This person, this photo is for the viewership of many that will produce a certain type of picture. What shows off this woman's beauty that is that is for her.

Michael Sasser: 00:34:19 You know, when she looks back at this picture and she says, wow, look at me. Like that will be a different kind of pictures. So I think the first thing is if you can shoot it from the perspective of a, of the woman and they may, I think being a guy, I think that's one of the things that makes us unique is that we don't look at it from a perspective of a woman. We look at it from the perspective of a guy. And so that will generate a, you know, a unique kind of photo. But if you can just do it, do it a little bit with that in mind, I think that'll be

the first thing that'll keep it tasteful. The second thing is that play on suggestion. So you can both have a beautiful photo that that looks just as like, wow, that photo is beautiful and is not sexual and have it be and have them be naked.

Michael Sasser: 00:35:06 So you're going to have just like a naked picture of a woman just standing by a window that's just beautiful. Then nothing sexual about it. And then you can have a woman in lingerie or whatever or you can have a woman in a dress, you know, a full dress. It's a busy day for the sirens today, criminals out there. And Monday, I think it's the A, I think there's a bunch of ambulances. Oh, that's even worse on this. So just give that one more second. But yeah, so then you can also have a woman like in a full dress that's like really sexual, that's really inappropriate. That's covered up a whole bunch of stuff. So know that there are, there are ways to make pictures like more risky. There are ways to make pictures more tame and the amount that she's wearing doesn't always have a factor on that.

Michael Sasser: 00:35:52 Okay. Okay. So as you're shooting you know, think if you want to keep them on the really tasteful side of things, you just think beauty instead of sexual. And so if she's sitting there and her lingerie, she sitting on her bed and she's like pulling up her her stockings, if she's wearing stockings or she's playing with her guard or on her leg, there's nothing really sexual about that. So that's just a really beautiful photograph. You can take that all day long and not have anybody assume that it's going to be inappropriate. So that's the first thing. I think if you apply that to a bunch of different things saying putting on her dress while really low back and done zipped in the back can be really beautiful. Again, not really that sexual. So yeah. I would say that that's probably the first thing that I would say is, is realize there's a difference between amount of clothing, you know, from the, from completely covered, completely nude and the amount of, you know, explicitness from, you know, nothing to a lot.

Michael Sasser: 00:36:51 Okay. So you can separate those two things. But yeah, I mean as far as getting them comfortable, I would say the, my two biggest pieces of advice are, you know, they are going to be walking around in lingerie, make a lot of eye contact is the first thing. And the second thing is your energy will affect their energy. So when I get somebody who's who's really nervous, I sometimes make a few more jokes than I normally would just to break down that barrier, just to make them laugh. If they're really, really nervous, I'll put down my camera and I'll ask them something completely unrelated. There'll be in lingerie, they'll stand there and I'll say what did you do this weekend? You know, before you, before you came in. And she'll say, oh, I think I've, you know, we went out with friends and I'll get them talking about it's a time that they were comfortable.

Michael Sasser: 00:37:40 They realize we're just having a conversation and they're actually comfortable. So sometimes breaking out of that can be helpful. If they are a really giggly person and you want them to have like some more intimate looks, I'll get really quiet and I'll speak much slower and that will sort of draw them into my energy. So if you're really nervous and you're showing that nervous energy, she'll feel that nervous energy and she'll show it. So a lot of eye contact, a lot of jokes or breaks, amount of that. Like, oh my God, we're in lingerie right now. Not We. She but those are probably my two biggest pieces of pieces of advice on, on like getting comfortable. Okay. Is knowing that she's already at some level of comfort for hiring you too. A lot of eye contact. Three, you know, keep it light, keep it fun, keep it light.

Raymond: 00:38:36 That's great stuff. That's great stuff right there. Uh, so when it comes to actually, uh, taking the photos, one of my favorite videos of yours on your incredible youtube channel is,uthree,uthe three,uI believe it's the three most popular poses are the three like poses or poses. Okay. Can you walk us through,uthose and how they can be applied?

Michael Sasser: 00:38:56 Yeah. So if you guys want to see that, just do like three favorite Lincoln in the show. Yeah, for sure. Perfect. That'll give you a nice visual. But basically, you know, when I'm, when I'm taking a photo, I'm, I'm trying to think of, of what I want to show. So the first pose is it's gonna be a, it's going to be a little hard to explain on the couch. Yeah. Could we, instead of doing that, do like the three boudoir tips that like every boudoir pose should have?

Raymond: 00:39:25 Oh yeah, absolutely.

Michael Sasser: 00:39:26 That might be some guy. I've got a couple of posing videos, one, his three favorite specific boudoir poses, and another one is three, three boudoir posing tips that whatever, whatever pose you're setting up. But you should include,

Raymond: 00:39:38 I guess that makes more sense cause I can, like I said, link to that other video in the show notes I put is more visual.

Michael Sasser: 00:39:43 Perfect. So so the first one is pointing toes. So women, you know who wear heels, like they wear heels to get this effect that they look taller to tone up their calves. It's just a, it's just a flattering look. So you can create that without heels just by pointing toes. So if you're laying down, if you have them laying down, if you have them on the couch, if you have them standing up against the wall, whatever they're doing, just tell them to point their toes. I say like a dancer, point your toes like a dancer. You can show them, they'll think it's really funny. It'll break the ice. That's tip number one. Point your toes. The next is to arch your back. So it's that posture that sitting up real tall. I tell them they'll probably be a little sore tomorrow, so we'll be arching their back a bunch.

Michael Sasser: 00:40:28 And in whatever pose they're doing this again, it's, it looks more flattering. So if they're sitting down, arch your back. If they're laying down their back, arch their back, if they're standing up against a wall arch, their back, pretty much whatever arts or back in to point their toes get 'em to arch their back. The third tip is hands. We always struggle with what to do with our hands. Everybody always feels awkward and nothing kills a photo more than hands that don't look like they know what they're doing, right? So I say that hands are a little bit of an excuse to tell a story. So in your wedding photography, in your portrait photography, you might have somebody walking, you might have somebody playing with their hair, you might have her holding her, like having her flowers close. You might have the two of them giggling.

Michael Sasser: 00:41:12 You know what is happening in this photo that tells a story of the photo. So hands can help with that. So you can be pulling on clothing Bra straps. You can be you know, like being a little playful and hidden with your hands. You can be playing with your lips, you can be sliding your fingers across your skin. Any of these sort of things. We'll add to a little bit of that suggestive a little bit, that story. A lot of it should feel like what happened, what's happening in the next photo? You know? So if you're doing like this, if you're pulling on your shirt, what's happening in the next photo? It's showing a little bit more. That's a way to kind of make it suggestive while staying tasteful versus like, you know, showing everything. So those are the three biggest tips is point your toes aren't your back and then have your hands tell a little bit of a story by playing with your hair, tugging on clothing, sliding around your skin.

Michael Sasser: 00:42:01 Just like making some movement. Yeah, make some movement but purposeful movement. Sure. You know, like if not, yeah, jazz hands. Like, what a lot of people do is I'll say, put your hands on your hair and they'll go like this and like, this doesn't look like anything because people don't really do this. You say, run your hands through your hair and they'll go like this. Okay. And all of these motions, this is natural. This is actually how your hands do it. Not this same with them. If you say let's put your hand on your

collarbone, they may just go like this, but if you say slide your finger across your collarbone, they'll go like this. Okay. Wow. Very good distinction. Yeah. So that's the thing is I think a lot of people they focus on like what is the pose? It's this like, where do you want me to put my hands? And everything is so stiff and strong. And the whole goal is to snap them out of that. Like what is a post supposed to look like? And like what would you honestly be doing in this situation if you were telling on your clothes?

Raymond: 00:43:00 Right, right. This a few weeks ago, I had a shoot with a with a model and I asked her, I was like, go ahead. And I now, I don't know exactly what the phrase that I used was but it was something to the effect of I wanted that look of her running her fingers through her hair, but apparently I said it totally wrong and she just had like a ponytail and she just like grabbed it and pulled it off to the side. And I was like, yeah, no, I did that wrong. I definitely, I didn't use any of those photos. But you know, that's, that's a great tip. That's a great tip for sure. So I have another question here from Erica in the group and I'll be really mindful of your time cause I know that we,

Michael Sasser: 00:43:36 No, no, no. Hey, oh, let's whatever they need. Whatever anybody needs. Let's do it.

Raymond: 00:43:40 You got two last questions here. All right. So this question is from Erica, who's in the group. And she wants to know how you make women who are not models look fabulous. So I guess she means feel fabulous. And yeah, that's it. Next question. Next part of that was how do you make them feel comfortable, but, but we already talked about how do you make women who are not models look fabulous.

Michael Sasser: 00:44:03 So the first thing so this is, I think it was a lot of a mindset photographer thing. So the first, first thing you need to do is to remove the idea that models are the only ones who look fabulous is a really small distinction. But our idea of boudoir is not about the photographer, right boudoir is about the client and their perception of beauty is more important than our perception of beauty. So I want to come out with a video on this, talking about, I'm talking about a bunch of things. So I've written, I've written down some, some things about this, but basically your idea of what's beautiful or what's fabulous, I don't want to say is irrelevant, but it's, you know, when a woman comes in who's who's like more curvy than the average woman, she knows what she looks like and [inaudible] and her, what she's going to be basing, you know, her idea of what she looks like is based on that, not based on you know, what you've seen of women and other, you know, of model pictures that you've seen.

Michael Sasser: 00:45:07 You're not trying to make her look like this bikini model that's, you know, in the Cayman Islands on a boat. Like, you know, living it up. You're trying to make her look like the best version of her. So that's the first distinction is sort of removing this idea of what people are supposed to look like, which is really hard to do. That's really, really, really hard to do for men and women. The next thing that I think is really important is to look at a person like truly look at a person and find what you do. Find beautiful about them. Now because of our perceived, you know, versions of beauty that could be challenging. But for instance, if somebody has, you know, is like a pencil but has really long legs, like that's awesome. I'm going to take a bunch of pictures of their really long legs and when they see them, they're going, oh my God, my legs looked so long.

Michael Sasser: 00:46:05 This is so amazing. There are ways to put a little bit of curve into them by doing things like arching your back and pointing your toes in a couple of the angles, which you'll learn after you shoot a lot more. But the first thing is just look at this person. What's unique about this person? What do I what do they love about themselves? And find a way to, to really show that you can be very selective. What I love about boudoir, what I love about Guar is that it doesn't have to be the whole person all of the time. If you just want to

photograph the line of their back and get that really beautiful light and you can do it and it looks amazing. If you want to do just their lips, you can do that and it looks amazing.

Michael Sasser: 00:46:48 If you want to do a shot of just their legs, you can do that and it looks amazing. You don't have to photograph the whole of them every time. So I love that creativity that we have. So that's the first thing. Look at somebody and photograph the you know, what you see in them as, as are these beautiful things. The next thing is I try and do is when somebody has something that they say that they dislike about themselves, like I'm self conscious about my stomach. There are poses where you can have them lay out and stretch their arms up. That will fit in that out. I will try and get a picture of that because if they can leave saying, I've been hard about myself, about my stomach for a long and now they see a picture of themselves where they're like, that actually looks pretty good.

Michael Sasser: 00:47:33 You've done something really good for this person. So when you're thinking like, how do I make a woman who's not a model look like a model, that's not really the goal. The goal is to take somebody who it looks a certain way and photograph the best version of themselves. And then if you can, if you can change that, that's the first bit of mindset. And then there's a million tricks that you can use to like, you know, they're self conscious about their stomach. You can put them in poses of that hides, you know, their mid area. If they think their legs are really short, you can put them in heels. If they you know, if they've got a a double chin in a bunch of areas and they're really self conscious of that, you can shoot a little bit more from above. And so it won't seem, so there, there are like specific posing things that you can do, but I think if you just, if you change a little bit of your mindset that'll make l make this so much easier. So that's the first thing. You know, that's kind of how I would answer that question.

Raymond: 00:48:33 Yeah, no, I think that that's going to help a ton. And that brought up an interesting question from me, which is how often do you find that that, that your clients are like self deprecating on themselves as far as like, cause I wouldn't, I would imagine that, you know, if you were, I've found this as a wedding photographer, I go up and I take a photo, somebody like I'll, it'd be like a nice close up portrait and they'll say something like, hey my nose, you know, like what are you saying in that situation? Like in that moment, do you just brush it off?

Michael Sasser: 00:49:05 Well I talk about one of my insecurities. So share your experience. People might think, well you are just photographing a lot of beautiful women all the time. I just see your pictures and so you don't, you know, you can't relate. Right. a lot of times people think they're the only ones going through whatever they're going through. So I my smile, if there's a in podcast you won't be able to see this, but when I smile, I've got these really deep, we had these deep smile lines, which I really, which I really didn't like for a long time. This goes back to your why. So I'll tell them the story of our got my smile lines I really didn't like. So for a bunch of years, for two years, I didn't really smile that much in pictures, which is silly cause I'm a pretty happy guy, but I just did this a little minimal, you know, smile that didn't show my teeth because I didn't like these lines.

Michael Sasser: 00:49:54 They represent people who are old and they represent people, you know, like that's we all wrinkles and everything. And at some point I was just like, why am I not smiling? These pictures, this is the dumbest thing ever. Like I'm a happy person. I can either choose that I disliked this about myself or I can accept that this is a part of me and it makes me who I am. And that's not a bad thing. What you find about yourself, positive or negative is a choice. It's literally as easy as deciding my nose is whatever. I've got my grandmother's nose and that's awesome. I have a part of her and you know, instead of being like, oh my nose makes me feel old. Right? So I'll tell a story like that and try and get inside their head, try and get their perspective to change a little bit.

Michael Sasser: 00:50:39 So that's a, that's one thing that I'll do. Another is I thought about doing this like no negativity jar. If you say something bad about yourself, you have to put like a dollar in the jar. That's a great idea. Which was a fun a, which was a fun idea cause I want to promote positivity. You don't want to ignore, you don't want to like brush it off like your nose. Beautiful. You have nothing to worry about. Like why are you, you look gorgeous. Like, like don't be silly, you don't want to dismiss what they're saying, but you do want to say I'm, you know, whatever. I'm sure your significant other, I'm sure that's something that people comment all the time that they, that they love your notes and they'll be like, you know what they do, but I just don't like it. Well, maybe it's your perspective that is the one that is wrong.

Michael Sasser: 00:51:25 But I think, you know, again, more as just so powerful and just like, it's all perspective stuff. Like we've all seen women go around that you would assume like that woman doesn't look very in shape. How is she just like walking around in a, in a tiny dress and she's owning it and she looks so happy, too confident in who she is. When I like work out every day and I feel like, Ugh, like I can't even stand to look at myself. It's because it's this, it's because it's all in here. So I think Bois, you know, you've got the pictures that have the ability to change perspectives. So I take those opportunities to try and, and help, you know, kind of share this philosophy that the whole, the whole thing about, about life in general is like your perspective and you can walk around hating your nose, your chin or your, that you've got a better side or any of those things or you can embrace who you are and decided that you love that part of yourself and and that sort of thing. So that's kind of how I deal with people who are negative. But if

Raymond: 00:52:24 Why did you decide to not do the, the, the negativity jar?

Michael Sasser: 00:52:29 Just because it was, I dunno, I like had it in, in Colorado and then when I came out to la, I just, I didn't do it. I didn't get as much of it and I decided to speak more about like my story and everybody has a story like that, I think. Yeah,

Raymond: 00:52:44 I guess it would be hard when somebody like in lingerie or you know they probably don't carry a wallet on them.

Michael Sasser: 00:52:50 Yeah. I mean it's kind of a fun idea and I was like end at the end, I'm going to donate it to some, you know, whatever charity or I don't know, whatever it would be, but I, I think it's a good idea. But

Raymond: 00:53:02 If it can be incorporated in the right way. Okay, cool. Cool. So I know that we talked a little bit about this earlier, about the turning negatives into positives when it comes to editing for you. But kind of a followup question from Erica was what are your what's your philosophy on editing and where are your boundaries?

Michael Sasser: 00:53:23 So I'll do whatever client wants me to do. I will, I'll just try and get them not to. So the very first thing that we talk about, you know, how much do you edit? I say blemishes. You know, if you've got like blemishes or something like that, like you woke up with a Zit, like I'm going to take that out. If you've got a bruise, I say nonpermanent things. So anything non that just gets taken out, that's real easy. If you are in dire need of, you know, removing your stretch marks, you can but know that stretch marks aren't, you know, there's no research that, that, that has any connection between that. I say I photographed a 20 year old soccer player, like college athletic division one soccer players got stretch marks, like a guarantee that they don't mean that you're overweight, you know?

Michael Sasser: 00:54:06 And so again, kind of trying to push that perspective change. So that's what I tell them. I set them up to the to get them to not want as much editing. So

that's the first thing is all in the, in the pre planning. So that's the first thing. The next thing is I had a client recently who was just like really particular, can you take this out? And it looks like there's a little inconsistency here. And I had this sort of thing. Can you go in and you can get that and you know, I'll do what they want after the fact. But pretty much I do same day sales session. So I import call, edit, export, slide show, get them ready for the client in an hour.

Raymond: 00:54:48 Wow. That is awesome. And we're going to have to do a whole other podcast on that. That's

Michael Sasser: 00:54:53 We can do it. We can do it. I've got a, I've got an editing youtube video that kind of shows a little bit of that process, but a lot of it is essentially you know, like I've had clients who are 60 years old and they require more editing than somebody who's 30. There is truth in that, however you get good at the pose and you get good with the lighting. I never liquefy anymore when I first started liquified. I never liquefy it anymore.

Raymond: 00:55:19 Like selective coloring,

Michael Sasser: 00:55:21 Selective coloring. Yeah. But I don't think it's, you know, healthy to say, in order for you to look beautiful, I had to digitally alter, you know, whatever it is. So I, so I don't do that anymore. And yeah, so those are, so my philosophy on editing is that people should look like people, people should look like themselves. If a client is like, I want you to Photoshop me to death. If that's what the client really wants, I'll do it. But because that's my philosophy, I get one in 30 clients that once that,

Raymond: 00:55:56 Okay, Gotcha. So just make those expectations clear from the beginning. And for, for whatever it is that you want to do. If you want to do minimal editing, that's okay. If you want to Photoshop to the nines, that's also okay.

Michael Sasser: 00:56:09 Yeah. If you want to Photoshop to the nines, you just explain it like I love pictures and magazines and I, and I think that if a woman were in a magazine photo that would just make them feel amazing. So I edit magazine quality retouching. Great, great. And a woman, you know, your potential client might say, that's so awesome cause I've seen, you know, Vogue magazine, what is it like to be in that magazine? And like you do that editing that way. So that's exactly what I'm looking for. Yeah. Great. That's, you know, that's totally opposite of what I do. And there's, you know, you, the goal isn't to photograph everybody, so you just do, do what it is you want to do, prep your clients and then they'll, you know, they'll want the same.

Raymond: 00:56:48 Well, Michael you have, you've shared a ton. You have came on here and you were more than generous with your time and your information. I really want to thank you so much for coming on here. Can you let the listeners know where they can find more about you online?

Michael Sasser: 00:57:03 Absolutely. So if you guys are interested in just like mostly education, I would check out my youtube channel. If you just Google, you know, my Michael Sasser on Youtube, you'll be able to find it. I've got like 30 or 35 videos. I've got one coming out today actually where I critique some of the, some of the photos of my viewers. Oh cool. I'm really excited about that as the first time I've done that. So I've got posing tips, I've got shooting tips, I've got editing tips. I've got, you know, I've made a video about a whole bunch of stuff. So that's going to be a really good resource. If you want to find me on Instagram. I, I try to post daily, I post a couple times a week, but I just have stories of things that are going on about the business and about things that are happening.

Michael Sasser: 00:57:46 So that's another fun spot to come check out, hang out, you can shoot me a message and, and keep in touch. But those are, those are probably the two places that I would check out. I've got some, I've got some paid boudoir courses if you guys are, you know, really want to get a jumpstart. But I think youtube is,uI've got a bunch of stuff on there to kind of peak your interest and started and get you started, get some insight and just,uyeah, I think it's a, I think it's been a really amazing to be able to share a ton of information that's been really helpful.

Raymond: 00:58:16 Yeah. You know, I checked out the course because I was interested in doing my research and you on, on you and I was doing my research on you. And it was really extensive. I mean, it really goes through what seems like everything, even your one hour turnaround time and sales session, which I'm really interested in. So I'm sure that if anybody's listening who is into boudoir photography and wants to check that out, they're definitely gonna do that. So again, Michael, I really do appreciate you coming on and sharing everything that you did and I look forward to keeping up with you in the future and all of your awesome youtube videos.

Michael Sasser: 00:58:48 This was awesome, man. I love I love that you're getting out and, and sharing. I do a similar a photographer spotlight where I sit down with some photographers again who are better than me and and hear their their take on business. So I think it's great. I love that you're, you know, sharing as much as you are. I think, you know, when people say I don't know, there's another photographer in my area who's charging a lot or who's at a similar pricing point and that's a bad thing. You know, if we can change the perspective of the value of boudoir and the value of photography, like everybody wins. Everybody starts paying more for photos because everybody believes they're of more value. So sharing that and helping other photographers raise a raise that level I think is just the best thing you can be doing.

Raymond: on.

Michael Sasser:

00:59:30

00:59:34

So. Awesome. Again, Michael, thank you so much for coming

All right man. I appreciate it.

Raymond:
of that interview with Michael Sasser. It was one of my favorites. We had a great conversation and it was interesting because it's one of those, you know, areas of photography that I really know nothing about. So coming up with questions was, was a little bit difficult for this one. But I hope that you got a good understanding of boudoir photography and if it's something interesting to you, I hope that you picked up a temper too. Because in the coming weeks we're going to have another boudoir photographer on and I would love to hear your thoughts and questions for them as well. So my biggest takeaway from this episode of the podcast was just that, just that it was interesting to hear Michael's take on getting into photography.

Raymond: 01:00:22 Obviously he, he, you know, went to college and, and picked up a kid, brought a camera with them, but it wasn't until he really got back and started to pursue it full time that he figured out what it was that his, I don't want to say calling meant sounds to, you know, out there I guess, but like what it was that he was passionate about what it was that, that he truly enjoyed shooting. And then he just went all in. And even though it was untraditional, especially for a male in this industry, he still decided to pursue it. And he has not only pursued it, but he shared how he got to when he is to become one of the most well known male boudoir photographers in the industry. And that just shows, you know, don't, don't just assume things, don't just assume things.

00:59:36

I want to know what you think. I want to know what you thought

Raymond: 01:01:06 If I, if I was in Michael's shoes, I probably would've said, you know, it's only, it's only women doing these things. There's no woman who would be you know, comfortable in front of a male like this, you know, because like I said, typically it's at least a lot of times it's a gift for a husband or a boyfriend or something. So being in the room with another male can be be intimidating. So I would have, you know, I just would've went in another direction, but it is so cool to hear that Michael just went all in and has, has just dominated this space. So if it's something that you love that you find that you enjoy, it don't put, you know, social as stigmas. I guess in your head, let it like, just stop you from doing something. Just go out there and do it.

Raymond: 01:01:53 If you love it, just go out there and do it, which is exactly why you're here listening to the podcast because you picked up a camera and I'm sure that you're thinking in your head right now, like, oh my gosh, there's so many. You know, photographers in my town, there's so much competition. There's no way that I could make a living doing this or be successful. Don't listen to that. Do not listen to that. If you love it, continue to do it and who cares about everybody else. And one day if you keep at it long enough, you will find success. So that is it for this week's episode of the podcast. I want you to get out there. I want you to keep shooting. I want you to focus on yourself. I want you to stay safe and I'll see you next week. That's it. I love you all.

outro: 01:02:35 If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.

BPP 150: Michael Sasser - Being a Male Boudoir Photographer

Automated transcription by temi.com

BPP 149: Sara Blanco - Creating Family Photography

Todays guest is Sara Blanco, a family lifestyle photographer in San Antonio, TX using natural light to capture those little moments that mean everything to you. Her website says "I wake up every day excited to meet new people and create images they will carry for the rest of their lives." Today I am excited to talk about creating more personal family photography!

Become A Premium Member is access to more in-depth questions that help move you forward!

In This Episode You'll Learn:

• How Sara got her start in Photography despite not being drawn to it from an early age

• How Sara learned photography

• What was most challenging for Sara to learn about photography

• The important roll Light played in Saras photography

• How Sara creates interactions with the families she photographs

• Saras editing workflow

• reoccurring challenges she faces when shooting and how she handles them

• and bad info that commonly told to new photographers

Premium Members Also Learn:

• How to know what to charge what youre worth

• Why so many photographers are not booking sessions and loosing out on money

• How Sara handles prints with her packages

Resources:

• San Antonio Family Photographers Sara Blanco’s Website

• Sara Blanco on Instagram

• Sara Blanco on Facebook

Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

Full Interview Transcription:

Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.

Raymond: 00:00 Hey Raymond here from the beginner photography podcast. And today we are talking all about family photography. So let's get into it.

Intro: 00:08 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfield, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raymond interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now with you as always, husband, father, home brewer, La Dodger Fan, an Indianapolis wedding photographer, Raymond Hatfield. Welcome back

Raymond: 00:38 Welcome back to this episode of the beginner photography podcast. I am Raymond Hatfield is always your host. And today we got a great show lined up. It is with a family photographer who is doing some really fun and interesting things. So I'm excited to get into this interview. But first I wanted to share a quick, quick story last week in the beginning of photography podcast at Facebook group. Now there's questions that, that group members posts all the time and sometimes one of them will catch me off guard. And it was a from Fabiola this week. She asked how do you call through images that you're attached to, right? She took a ton of photos of her Kiddo. And if you have kids, I'm sure that you can relate. You don't want to delete any of them. It's hard. It's a tough thing to select a photo of your child and then press that delete button.

Raymond: 01:28 I get it. I get it. You don't want to delete any of them. But she also still wants to improve her skills as a photographer, which part of that includes choosing the best photos. So I told her that while you can keep way more photos of your kids than you do for like a portrait session, you know, no, nobody's gonna look at you strange for having like 204 photos of your kids, like at, from one from one sitting from one session, like going out to the park or whatever. But you would never deliver like that many photos from a portrait session. Cause it's just, it just too many. I did say though that if, if a photo doesn't elicit any sort of emotional response, if nothing incredible, you know, I guess that's, that's, that's too hyped up. If nothing is going on in the photo that makes you like, stop and say like, Oh wow, like I see his personality or I see you know, like that's typically something that they would do.

Raymond: 02:27 If the photo doesn't have any of that and it has a poor composition and the photos out of focus toss it, you have to toss it. You know, nobody's gonna want to keep those photos. And I can tell you from personal experience that the more photos that you get rid of. Now again, I know this is hard and that it's something that you're going to have to work on, but the more photos that you get rid of as time goes on and you go back and look at the photos that you kept, it's going to like boost your your spirit. Because

suddenly you have just like, you know, a, a selection of like a dozen or great photos, like the best photos and you're gonna feel like, wow, I'm a, I'm a pretty good photographer. This is, this is awesome. You know? And then of course as the kids get older, they're going to be even more powerful.

Raymond: 03:11 But if you had to go through 10,000 photos you know, to pick out, you know, 10 good ones, no, nobody's gonna want to do that. And that just takes up more of your time and everybody else's time as well. So so that was my advice to Fabiola. And then right after that I went back to editing a video for my upcoming course called auto to amazing. Now when I wrote out auto to amazing, I thought this is going to have everything in it. Nobody's going to have any questions about photography afterwards whatsoever. So I started writing, I started coming up with all these videos and these modules, I mean, I think that we recorded like, like more than 20 hours of video, right? And then I got to work and I started editing it all and then I thought I was thinking more about, you know, photos of the kids and what I had just said to Fabiola and I thought to myself, well wait a second, nobody needs all of this extra info to to start taking amazing photos, right?

Raymond: 04:13 Nobody needs to know things like a back button focus or or what is chromatic aberration and how to deal with it just to take good photos. No, nobody needs that to get started. All that you need to know is when and why to change your settings and that. That's it. That's it. So even though I had recorded so many videos, I started taking those videos out of the course because there is no need for something that advanced that doesn't help the cause, right? When all that you want to do is consistently take photos that you are proud of. Like I said earlier, if you took 10,000 photos, but there's 10 good ones in there, it's almost not worth it to look through all 10,000 photos to find the 10 good ones. If you as the photographer call throughout the other your 90 photos to get to the 10 good ones, those 10 good ones are going to be way more impactful.

Raymond: 05:11 And that's what I knew that I had to do. I had to take out all the stuff that didn't matter to you to, to learn to, to, to have an impact from this course. So I went through and I cut out all the fluff and that's it. And how this course is, it is so lean and it is so powerful just to get you to, to, to shoot manual, to get you to see new compositions and to get you to understand light as well. So I was really excited about that. And, and now, you know, I wouldn't have got that if it wasn't for fabulous question. So Febrile if you're listening, thank you so much for, for, for being vulnerable and asking those, those questions. So I'm just putting the finishing touches on the course now and it will actually Beta launch here June 4th to just a small group of members who are in the beginning photography podcast, Facebook group, which is another reason why you should join is to get access to things like this and then it will launch to the public June 27th.

Raymond: 06:11 So again, that is my auto two amazing course that I am so excited to release for you guys. So if you're interested, I will have more details as we get closer to June 27th. Okay. So let's go ahead and get on into this interview right now with Sarah Blanco. Now, this was, this was just a fun, fun, fun interview. She is she's full of life and loves to talk. So we had a great time together and I think, I know that you're going to get a lot out of this interview just about her, her, her style of shooting and just the way that she sees a shooting family's so really exciting. And as always, I save a portion of our interview together where we talk about business and, and making more money for premium members. So in today's interview with Sara, premium members are going to hear how to know what your worth is and how to charge your worth.

Raymond: 07:04 A why so many photographers struggle to book sessions and of course make more money. And lastly, how Sarah works her portrait packages when it comes to prints. So that is something that I hear all the time. People want to know about prints, how

many, where do you get 'em and we cover that here with Sarah. So if you are a free listener and want to hear the full interview with all the extra business information, all you got to do is become a premium member by going to beginner photography podcast.com and click that premium membership button up at the top, right? Yep. Okay. That's it. Let's go ahead and get on into this interview with Sarah Blanco.

Raymond: 07:44 Today's guest is Sara Blanco, a family lifestyle photographer in San Antonio, Texas. Using natural light to create those little moments that mean everything to you. Her website says, I wake up everyday excited to meet new people and create images that they will carry for the rest of their lives. I love that philosophy today. I'm really excited to talk about creating more personal family photography. So Sara, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you for having me. Of course. As I mentioned you are a family lifestyle photographer in San Antonio and I usually start off the podcast by just starting off with the like the beginning, right? Where did it start for you? I want to know how you got started in photography.

Sara Blanco: 08:29 Well it was a million years ago. I am great. I try. No, I was a, I was 17 and I was working as a receptionist or the hair salon and loving the environment of being the greeter for people and meeting New People and getting to know new people. And I got the opportunity to start managing a studio. I basically was taking over the position for someone who was going on maternity leave. And so at 17 I started managing photography studios. Yeah. It was a, it was kind of crazy, but I, what I loved about that position was that again, I was kind of thrown into it as the person that everybody saw, the first person that people talk to. I helped brides design their books, I helped moms order photographs, I did everything. And so for me, my first introduction into photography was dealing with people and really like discovering my love for working with people and getting to know all kinds of different people. And that was from there. From there I just, I really, it's, I managed studios at for about, I would say two different studios, one, three years, one six years. And then I started my business when I was 24 full time.

Raymond: 10:00 Wow. So did you, had you had any like, photography experience before you started as a greeter at the studio? No, none.

Sara Blanco: 10:07 None. It was one of those fluke positions that it was a friend of a friend and they just kind of took a chance on this 17 year old who wasn't, I didn't go to college because I was really, really bad in school and I knew for me I think a lot of creatives are. It just, the idea of going to college was like an overwhelming obstacle for me. Where as just working really, really hard doing something I love was the easy path. So it's never been easy like financially and all of that. It's always taken me a lot, a lot of work, but it's been fulfilling.

Raymond: 10:50 Good, good. So without having really like picked up that camera, you know, like a lot of photographers stories that, you know, they have a camera in their hands since they were young. My self included, having been on the other side of that. Yes. Kind of falling into the business side. Like oh this is, I work for a photography studio and then having to learn photography. How, how, how did you educate yourself about photography? Cause obviously it can be pretty technical.

Sara Blanco: 11:17 Yes. Well, this was 20 years ago, so everybody was still film a. So learning was actually like easier. I bought an old Nikon and just started practicing and have my little Nikon FM two. I still have it. And I, I just, I shot everything. I, the, the second photographer that I worked for, she actually taught me the photography side of it. I became her second shooter for weddings and, and she was all film. She still is all film. So everything that we did was film and it was just, it was learning by doing. And I learned the technical, I learned the ass of the just the creative side from her. I learned how to see light. I learned how to interact with

people, learn how to make people feel comfortable around me, which I had already pretty much learned because my job was to be the face of these businesses. So yeah, I mean it was just a lot of years of just learning by doing.

Raymond: 12:21 So like you, I also started shooting on film and I know that like you didn't have that instant gratification to see exactly the changes that you are making. So how did you know that the decisions that you were making were right? Like was there some sort of review process after you shot a roll?

Sara Blanco: 12:42 I'm just kind of finding what I liked, like the kind of light that I liked. I did a lot as a second shooter. I did a lot of black and whites for her, so we would do, you know, 3,200 speed, all natural light and a dark reception and just kind of seeing what we got. I dunno, we did, we did just, she would review my images, she would kind of show me what she liked about what I was doing. But then at the end it was really more like what, what I liked what finding my voice. It, it was expensive. You know, film film is Pricey, so I, you would have to be the, I would have to be very selective. I would have to know exactly what I wanted to take before I took it. And just years of, of kind of doing that.

Raymond: 13:30 Can you give me just one second? Okay. So sorry.

Raymond: 14:00 I have those little curtains put up for that, for that exact reason they went to, to go get groceries and I guess they're back now. So thank you. I apologize for that. Yeah. so I want to get back to what it was like experimenting with Film cause like you said, it can be expensive, it can be a hard thing. Can you take me, like, can you get back into that headspace and was there anything that you found to be extremely challenging for you to, to understand and was there a moment that you kind of had this Aha where it kind of all came together?

Sara Blanco: 14:41 MMM. Like specifically when photographing or, or with photographing like a certain subject or

Raymond: 14:47 I suppose just learning how a camera works because I think a lot of people get a lot of people get wrapped up in that, right? They don't understand how aperture affects or I guess, you know, aperture is pretty easy to see visually, but you know, they don't understand how like everything works together. And now more than ever, we can see that instant like feedback. Right. Right. When it was back in those days of film I kind of, I want to know a deeper understanding of what challenges it was that that you faced.

Sara Blanco: 15:22 My, my biggest challenge was learning light. Like that is what took me the longest to learn, like learning how to shoot and learning what I liked to shoot, like learning. I guess for, with film it was so different because right. You would, you would, your ISO didn't change. You would put your film in, that was your ISO and so really it was just a matter of I like a really open what would you put it? Aperture? Yeah, I told you I'm not technical, so I knew like, I always wanted to shoot everything at like one, eight . And so it was really just a matter of changing my shutter speed. Like it was, I took two photography in a very simple, easy way. I learned very simply like give me the easiest explanation and that is what I'm going to go with. So I didn't really have a hard time understanding how the camera works. Like I just kind of understood that it was all connected. Right. Your, your, your ISO, your aperture, your shutter speed. You just had to kind of figure out how all that was going to work, where you were. If I was inside it would be, you know, one eight at, you know what I mean? It just, I guess I didn't really have a hard time understanding that concept.

Raymond: 16:48 Would you say that it was because of the amount of practice that you put in behind the camera

Sara Blanco: 16:52 Probably. Yeah. Yeah. And just having a professional photographer who shot 100% film being like, Sara, it's not that hard, just like, this is it, you know, when I switched to digital, then it became a little bit different and then there was definitely a learning curve for me with digital for sure. Why is that? Can you expand on that? With film you, you didn't never want to underexpose, right? Like if you underexposed, you ruined your image, you can overexpose as a full stop and still have a great image. And we would actually, we liked kind of that brighter area look back then with film and so we would overexpose everything then going to digital. If you underexposed, I mean if you overexpose you've lost half your information. So it's just kind of a flip flop way of looking at it. For me, digital is a lot harder. It's interesting. It's nice because you can see exactly what you're getting. You can it's that instant gratification. You can shoot a million frames and not, you know, not feel bad about it. Like you did not going to have to pay for that

Raymond: 18:07 To get out a re mortgage my house.

Sara Blanco: 18:10 Exactly. But like with digital, it's, it's just, there's so much more in the back end and it's like you got to put it all on your computer and you have to edit. And it just, there's so much more of a time commitment there that I think it ends up evening out. Like the time we spend with digital, it evens out financially with what we would spend on film.

Raymond: 18:29 Yeah, no, I think that makes sense. And I think that that is something that a lot of people don't think of. But you know, just looking at the, you know, your bank account, you think, oh, digital is a, is much cheaper. But yeah, the time in the backend is, it's, it's not quick, it's not quick. But so lighting is obviously something that it takes a long time to see. You know, you can have hours and hours and hours of just talking about seeing light. Right? Yeah. And you kinda touched on that a little bit, but not gonna want to talk about composition. Composition is something that doesn't get taught very often. I think it doesn't really come up a lot in conversation because it's not super technical. It's not, if you're in this situation, this is what you do. If you're in this situation, this is what you do. It's a lot of it is up to you, the photographer. But in the early days after learning those technical abilities, next is the light in the composition. So how did you go through the process of of figuring out what style of like where you like to hold the camera,

Sara Blanco: 19:32 Right. Well when I was second shooting weddings, it was a lot of what she wanted me to do. So it was standing where she needed me to be capturing what she needed. Once I started really shooting for myself I kind of did everything differently than she, then she preferred. And I don't know if it was because I just had a different style, but I, I don't know, I would just play. I, you know, you sort of have, when you're photographing a child, what do you want to see with that child? You want to see everything. You want to remember everything you want to remember. One of my very favorite first images that I took was of my niece and she was two years old. Completely insane. Like the most hyper child you have ever met.

Raymond: 20:24 I would challenge you, but okay.

Sara Blanco: 20:26 She just was, she was fire all the time. And so I, I loved photographing her because she challenged me, challenged everybody with whatever they said with me, especially because she knew I was trying so hard to like practice photography and she would just take off running. And so one of my very images that I took of her, I was trying to get a portrait of her looking up at me. And so I had my camera and she ran past me and looked at it and it was, I somehow got it in focus at the perfect time when she was looking up at me. And it just, that whole little series that I did of her was one of my favorites. It was her standing on her tip toes looking up at it, like touching a gate. It was her hands, that was her. So I've kind

of just played with a million different angles that told a story about that 10 minutes we spent in her front yard. So it was the, the ground is the background, the fences, the background, her feet, her hands. And so just getting, you know, a million different compositions and ways of photographing her that really told this story. So I think that at the end of the day, that's all I'm trying to do is tell a story.

Raymond: 21:41 I was like, right as you kind of started your explanation, I think I picked up on that, right? That answer was much less technical. And it was much more emotion driven. And I liked that because I was, I was thinking about this while I was going over your work before I reached down. I thought looking at your photos, there is a lot of there's a lot of emotion. There's a lot of play with colors, which I love. So why don't you share right now when you're photographing families, how do you create an emotion, how you create that interaction between your families?

Sara Blanco: 22:17 So a lot of it comes from just being a mother myself and knowing the effort that has gone into this family even meeting me. You know, there's convincing dad most of, most of the time convincing dad to show up and be happy about it. And so for me, just being very, very present with my clients, I'm talking to them beforehand about what the expectations are of me, what they want to see from me the way that I work when I'm working with a family, kind of giving them a little bit of insight into what is going on in my mind while I'm shooting them.

Raymond: 22:55 So just making sure that they are prepared in the van. Understand that they're kind of along with you in this journey.

Sara Blanco: 23:01 Yes, exactly. And, and also me, myself, you know, showing up ready and being, being vulnerable being just 100% there for them. This isn't for me, this is for them. And so I'm an observer. I really like to watch people watch the way that they interact and it sounds kinda weird, but kind of read their energy like from the minute they get out of the car, you can tell how dad's feeling.

Raymond: 23:31 Oh yes. You sure can.

Sara Blanco: 23:34 You can see how dad's feeling. You can, you can hear kind of the frazzled newness and mom's voice trying to make everybody happy and just like make this all go smoothly. She's usually already apologizing for one of the children being in a mood or something. So for me to just show up and be like immediately try to just make them happy and like, this is going to be so fun. And let me tell you about this butterfly I saw on the field and dad, how was that traffic? Are you doing okay? Like just trying to immediately break down their barriers without being like a, like a force. You want to be a gentle force with your, with your people, right? You want to let them be comfortable and let them be vulnerable. And how do you do that? You have to be that yourself first. So really just creating an energy with them among us of just happiness and love and I'm not stressed out. Your kid is screaming his head off, but that's okay because we're going to play over here for a minute while you handle that and don't worry, it is perfectly fine. And just really creating an environment where they can be themselves. I do give prompts, I do direct quite a bit. But really it's a, it's a direction. It's a prompt and then it's stepping back to let them be normal, be themselves.

Raymond: 24:54 You know, what's interesting is a few years ago I remember hearing the story of a doctor who was a like let go from a hospital because he had poor bedside manner. And I remember being young thinking like that's not his job. Like he's a doctor. Like his job is to said you have cancer, you know, sorry. You know what I mean? But as I've kind of went into business for myself and dealing directly with people especially with that answer right there, that is so true. You know, cause she, because photography is, is much

more of a service than it is a product. And making sure that people feel good and are comfortable is so important. So I love, I love that you shared that. Thank you. Thank you. So you said that you weren't a little bit like with some prompts and you work you work heavily to direct the type of photo that you are looking to get. So let me ask, what are you trying to get as a family photographer? What, what, what's that shot that you're trying to get?

Sara Blanco: 25:54 Their life, their energy, their, their you know, every family has a certain language, right? We all kind of, we have a look that we give our partners. We there's a way that we touch our children. So for me it's not, it's not a image. It's not a particular like this, this is always what I'm aiming for because this is what I want on my website. It's, that's never it for me. I mean there's certain ways that we start. Like, we'll start by walking through the field and then I'll have you stop and I'll ask dad to throw the youngest in the air while mom, you know, holds the, the older child or just certain things like that. But really it's more of a it's more like a, just a, it just a story. I'm looking to tell a story about your family and however I can do that. So if it's if it's a day at the park, if it's a morning in your home, if it's meeting a baby sister for the first time or something, it's, it's just looking for the images that reflect that moment and how we all felt that day. You know what I mean?

Raymond: 27:08 I don't know if that answered your question. No. So perfectly. It answered so, so, so perfectly. So then my next question, my followup question would be, how do you prepare for something like that? Because you can't just show up and you know, I mean, you can to some degree, you can show up, get a feel for who people are and then go based on that. But do you have any sort of interaction with or do you do any sort of like research before you show up with a family? Do you send out questionnaires or anything to better learn who they are?

Raymond: 27:39 Hey Raymond here and if you're listening to this, it means that you are listening to the free version of today's podcast, which means that you are missing out big time. You know if you become a premium member, not only do you unlock the full interview with today's guests where they share so much more valuable information on how to become a successful photographer, but you also get access to the entire back catalog of past interviews with some of the world's most renowned and experienced photographers who open up and share how they got to where they are and what they would do if they had to start all over again today. Now, if you want to find out, become a premium member by heading over to Patreon.com/Beginnerphotographypodcast Or just head on over to the beginning photography podcast.com and click the link on our homepage. That's it and hope to see you there. Awesome. Awesome.

Raymond: 28:32 Okay, so now we've we've talked about where you got started. We talked a lot there about business that was more than 15 minutes of business talk, right then we were worried about that. Right.

Sara Blanco: 28:43 I'm very passionate about, I'm very passionate about business and, and photographers being able to create a sustainable income from their business. If you are spending the majority of your time on your business, your business needs to be feeding your family.

Raymond: 28:58 Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's a great point. That's a great point. So one of the, one of the things that Carrie said that you struggled with, right, was the idea of going and doing the shoot, which was fine with, but then the fact that she was going to have to come home and spend a lot of time editing those photos and that's where she was worried about the the worth. So can you walk me through your editing workflow? What happens right after you get home from a session?

Sara Blanco: 29:24 So at right after I get home from a session, it's usually late at night because, you know, sunset sessions. I basically download everything to an external. I back it up and I go to bed. I, my editing process is, I put through light room and that's pretty much Ed. I mean from a, from a final session, I will end up with anywhere from four to 600 images that I'll call down to about 125 to 150.

Raymond: 29:56 Okay. So when you say that you get home, you backup the files to a, a, an external hard drive and then you back that up, what do you mean you back, you back that up. What tools do you use?

Sara Blanco: up on.

Raymond:

Sara Blanco:
actually store anything on my computer because computers are 10 die. Yeah. If they do, they've died on me many times. So I just have two external hard drives. I have one that I store everything on and then when that is just a backup of that storage. Gotcha. Okay. And I played around with like crash plan in bed cloud storage and I haven't really found anything that I love. So I'm open to suggestion.

Raymond: 30:41 Ion. I don't really have any suggestions as I think that, you know, having a backup strategy is, is is, is kind of a personal thing, which I don't think a lot of other people think that, but that's Kinda how I see it. What works for me will not work for you and we'll wait for other photographers will not work for me as well. But I started using a backblaze so I was using crash plan for awhile and then I switched to backblaze because I think crash plan just went to like exclusively business and then they raised their prices. But it's not, the way that I look at it is that it's not like a backup that I can just like access all the time. Go, oh crap, I gotta, you know, I got to get that thing. It is really like the last line of defense.

Raymond: 31:23 Like if my house burns down tomorrow, yes. I just want to make sure that, you know, I find work that I'm currently working on and like family photos, like I can retrieve that. So but I, I will say that our Internet bill was through the roof and I had no idea that was gonna happen because I guess we get like one, a terabyte of data that we can use a month and a, in that month it goes backing up. I used over five terabytes of data, so I had to remortgage our house. But yeah, so, so like I said, it's, it, it's a lot. But I had another question for you right there. I was. Oh what do you think are just some general overall challenges that you see a lot of other photographers facing when photographing or no, I think that back. What are some challenges that you face when, when photographing families? I mean there's,

Sara Blanco: 32:24 There's just the standard challenges of every session. It's getting to know someone, making them feel comfortable. It, sometimes you run into the situation where let's just, I sound like I pick on dads. It's not always dad. But let's just say that it's a dad who is just emotionally unavailable that day and kind of trying to, to find the n trying to kind of like break down the walls a little bit that it's like, I'm not here to judge you. I'm really just here to provide this service for your wife because this is really important to her. Sometimes when it's just a shutdown emotional situation, it's, it's a little tricky to work around and you really, it's, those are for me the most emotionally taxing sessions where I am just trying everything I can to make everybody happy and it's not working.

Sara Blanco: 33:21 It doesn't happen very often anymore. I really, I think that when people go onto my website, they talk to me, they, they're ready to hire me for a session. They kind of already get a really good sense of who I am. And what I'm after. So by the time that the

30:07 I am very, very simple. I have two external hard drives that I back

30:14 Okay. Yeah. Just using like time machine or something.

30:17 Ah, well I have time machine, but that's for my computer. I don't

session comes, there's not a whole lot of explanation. Right. They kind of know what they're in for. I do a lot of pre educating on like, we're here to play. Please don't just stand there and smile at me. But you know, sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes it's a lot of pulling, pulling, pulling that emotion out of them. And that vulnerability.

Raymond: 34:02 I've I've, I've witnessed very similar situations when it comes to engagement sessions where she is obviously very excited. She's, yeah, she really looking forward to this and sometimes the, the creme to be, we'll be a little more emotionally detached. Right. so a little trick if you want to take this, do it, is that when you show up, like you said, you can kind of get a read for these people, right? Yeah. I'm just mentioning that like, hey look, you know like I'm trying to think of how to phrase it for like dads and stuff, but essentially just saying like, look, you know I know that, you know, you're probably feeling like in this, like you're going to be stuffy, you know, like you're just standing there smiling against the camera. And right now like, just think like what we're going to capture for you. Like it's gonna be for the kids. Like the kids are going to look back and this a long time and we're going to have fun. You know? How often do you like truly get to have fun and like enjoy your time with your kids and not be distracted? I guess that wasn't as good of a, a, I guess it sounded better. Yeah.

Sara Blanco: 35:05 I have to say truthfully, I think too, like kind of making fun of this situation. Like when you're, when you're asking the parents, like it's the parents turned to be all snuggly together and I'm like, oh, come on. I know you guys are always embracing like this in the middle of nowhere with your kids, like frolicking in the field nearby. Like Kinda just like making fun of this ridiculous situation that we're in. Like you guys do this all the time. You have kids, I know you kiss. Yeah. Just stuff like that to kind of down the barrier a little bit to help. I feel like a jerk. Hey, here's how you should run your business. Actually I don't have a good example.

Raymond: 35:51 I want to know, do you think is a, you talked there about,ufollowing,utrying to impress photographers, right? As something that a lot of newer photographers do. But aside from that, is there any other commonly bad information that you hear being taught to photographers or new new photographers specifically,

Sara Blanco: 36:12 style styled shoots and style sessions, styling your clients? Like as the, the end all be all, like that's not the most important thing that we could be doing as photographers. I think giving styling assistance and helping helping your mom to feel confident and the choices that she's making. You know, like a lot of people are like, what do we wear? So I do give, I do give them access to a styling site that kind of helps them choose outfits and kind of lays something out for them. But at the, at the end of the day, I do not make a really big deal about what they were. I think if mom feels beautiful and the dress she's wearing, then it is the most perfect dress she could be wearing. Yeah. I think that I think that a lot of emphasis and the industry right now has been put on what people are wearing and

Raymond: 37:09 I think that might go back to the trying to please have the photographers, you know what I mean? Cause a lot of times people don't just dress, you know, the way that they do for photos. Right? So when somebody takes it even a step further, I think a lot of photographers get really excited about something like that. But you're right,

Sara Blanco: 37:25 It'd be the, yeah. Trying to just, you know, like you're shooting every single session so that it's going to look good on your Instagram feed or it's going to look good on your website. Every single session isn't going to, to be the perfect session. Right.

Raymond: 37:39 I'm living proof of that. Yeah.

Sara Blanco: 37:43 you're, you're ultimately there to create for them and, and that should be your focus. You should, it should never be about the images that you want for yourself, I think. I think, and I've heard the thing, you know, take one for them, take one for me. But to me, I, they're hiring me because they want to, to see the way that I see them. So every single image that I'm taking for them is my interpretation of their family. So every single image just for them is kind of the way that I see it in my mind.

Raymond: 38:19 Ah, I see. I see. Then, you know what, that's really interesting a way of putting it that I haven't I haven't put it as eloquently as you have right there. So thank you for sharing that.

Sara Blanco: 38:33 I'm all, should I write that down? Was good.

Raymond: 38:36 That was a really good one. Well, I think, I think, I think what it is, is that for me, a lot of beginners come in and they're like, you know, I like what poses should we do? You know what this, and went that and it's like, well, it's not, it's not as easy as that because the first thing that I say to every couple when I show up to an engagement session is, look, you know, your your relationship better than I do. So I'm not going to pose you in like a certain way every single time. I'll give you, you know, a guide. But I want you to default to whatever is most comfortable to you. Right? Yeah. Because I want these images for them. I want them to see these images years from now and think like, this is really us and this is how the, you know, the photographer wanted us to stand for 30 minutes while she took our photo or whatever. And the way that you put it right there, it was just a just much, much better. It flown a whole lot easier. So great. Yeah. Great Chair.

Sara Blanco: 39:24 And I think too, like every prompt or direction that we give is, is kind of cracking the door to see what, what is really them. Right? So like we're telling them to embrace each other and we may tell you know him to put his hand on her tea, Cup her cheek and give her a kiss. But if that's not like who they are as a couple, that's not going to translate well. Right. So it's like you're with every direction you give, you're opening a door to letting them show you who they really are and you need to give them the space to show you that. So like you, like you just said, like kind of giving them a heads up like, hey, this is what I'm going to tell you to do, but that's not the final result. Like you do what feels comfortable.

Raymond: 40:07 Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. That was awesome. That was a cool little... I feel like my brain is like on fire right now. It's really cool. Really cool. One question that I love to ask, cause I would love to hear these answers. Have you ever had an embarrassing moment behind the camera on the job that you would be willing to share?

Sara Blanco: 40:26 Oh my God. Yeah. I mean like so many, so many, so hard to pick. The very most embarrassing thing that ever happened to me was second shooting a wedding and the main photographer had the entire bridal party, the wedding party, and all of the extended parents, everybody, like the whole damn family was there and she, she was photographing them. So they were facing us and she asked me to run and get something for her real quick. And I, I was running, they were obviously all looking at me. I ran and just slipped and fell flat on my face. My camera actually like over my head, slammed onto the hard ground. Luckily it was film like bohemoth. Like nothing happened to that camera. It was totally fine. But I was, I just wanted to die. And that was, that was not the most embarrassing part. The most embarrassing part was the most precious, kindest mother of the groom. The rest of the day kept checking on me, making sure that I was okay and offering me Advil. Like it was a bad spell like I was. Yeah, it was bad. That was the most embarrassing thing.

Raymond: 41:47 Well I'm sure that you just gave hope to a lot of other people out there who will eventually do the same thing because I'll get through it. You will get through it.

And when you're at a wedding, it's a, I mean, it's understandable, you know, it's understandable to, you know, make, make a mistake or something like that. So I'm glad that you came out on the other side, stronger human being

Sara Blanco: 42:05 Oh yeah. You gotta roll with it and you got a good story out of it, so, you know.

Raymond: 42:10 Yeah. But you can share with the world on a podcast years later. That's funny. Sara, I want to thank you for coming on the podcast. You've shared a ton that I know that the listeners are going to truly enjoy and get a lot of value out of this interview with you. Before I let you go, can you share with the listeners where they can find you online?

Sara Blanco: 42:32 I'm on Instagram. And I'm also on my website, Sara k blanco.com and Instagram, Sara k Blanca photography.

Raymond: 42:40 Perfect. Now side question before I let you go, is Instagram your favorite Social Media and platform of choice?

Sara Blanco: 42:47 Yeah, I think so. I I don't love any social media. But yeah, I do. I do dedicate some time to Instagram. I've found great friends through Instagram. I will tell you I don't get a lot of clients from there. I do get, no, I don't get a lot of clients. My clients find me online or they find me through a referral. Yeah.

Raymond: 43:12 All right. Well if you want to connect with Sara, Instagram is going to be the place to do it. So Sara, again, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and I look forward to keeping up with you and everything that you do in the future.

Sara Blanco: 43:22 Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Raymond: 43:24 How much fun was that, Sara? If you are listening right now, I just want to say thank you again for coming on the podcast and sharing what you did and just having a good time and being open and able to laugh at me and at yourself. So you really did share a time and I know that the listeners are going to get a lot of information out of this episode. So again, thank you very much. I think my biggest takeaway from this episode was, you know, just that, just that there's this, there's this idea that you can't be a great photographer in the last, you know, you grew up with a camera in your hand and you've been shooting since you were four and you know, capturing moments and all, all these things like that. Right? But he was Sara. She is not only like successful, but she's taking incredible images and photography discovered her.

Raymond: 44:18 She wasn't into it as a super young child. It wasn't until she got a job working the front desk of a photography studio that she started to learn these things and then she got interested and then it just took over and is, that's awesome. You know, and maybe you're in a similar situation to where you feel like you're not a quote unquote real photographer because you haven't been doing it since you were, you know, one years old. You know, some people just have this idea that that starting young automatically makes you better. And while there's some merit to that, it's not the age at which you start. It's, it's the amount of effort that you put into it and the amount of work that you put into it. And you can start at any age, at any age, wherever you are right now, you can start and become a successful photographer as long as you define what success is to you.

Raymond: 45:07 So that was definitely my biggest takeaway for them from my, my interview here with Sara. So that is it for this week. I cannot wait until next week. We got somebody who I've, I've, I've never, not that I've never interviewed them before, but I've never

interviewed this type of photographer before and I know that that's all I'm going to say. It's a really fun and interesting interview. So like I said, come back next week. I will see you then, but until next week, I want you to get out. I want you to keep shooting, stay safe, and focus on yourself. All right. I love you all.

outro: 45:43 If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.

BPP 149: Sara Blanco - Creating Family Photography

Automated transcription by temi.com

BPP 148: YOUR Photography Questions Answered!

Today I take on your photography questions! Earlier this week I went live in the Beginner Photography Podcast facebook group where I answer group questions!

Become A Premium Member is access to more in-depth questions that help move you forward!

In This Episode You'll Learn:

• How to get from where you are, to where you want to be in photography

• How to get Lightroom Presets

• Do you really need a full frame camera to be competitive

• Are there any lightroom competitors that don’t have a monthly fee

• Weather it’s better to use your cameras viewfinder or LCD screen

• How to get started shooting weddings in a new city

• When you should use Hard light

• Do you need an external flash or not

• How to use Flash Correctly

• How to keep photos looking consistent in different lighting

• Why your landscape photos might be fuzzy

• How to run a photography business

• How to not kill your love of photography

• What focusing mode to use and when

• How to know when your photos are good enough

• Weather I use Photoshop or Lightroom more

• Do the number of focus points really matter

• How to get better at compositions

• How to take great photos indoors without off camera flash

• What settings to start off ever photo session

• How to properly size your photos to send to clients

Resources:

• Our Lightroom Presets

• Lightroom alternatives

• Learn Flash in a Flash online course

• Guide to composition

• BPP 50: Vincent Pugliese - How to Become a Super Bowl Photographer

• Youngnuo YN560 IV Flash for Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji

Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

Full Episode Transcription:

Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.

Raymond: 00:00 Hey guys, Raymond here from the beginner photography podcast. And today I'm answering your questions. So I am doing a Facebook live right now. I am live in the group. Yesterday I asked a in here, in the group what questions did you have that were burning about photography. And today here I am and we are going to get to these.

intro: 00:24 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfield, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raymond interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now with you as always, husband, father, home brewer, La Dodger Fan and Indianapolis wedding photographer. Raymond Hatfield

Raymond: 00:53 Going to get on into this. Like I said the other day I, I reached out to the group and I asked all of you what questions do you have about photography that are just burning inside of you? And right now, I'm going to take that time to answer those questions for you because well I've been editing my face off for the past few days and I'm looking for a break and I'm excited to interact with you guys. So let's go ahead and get on into it. Okay. Let's see. Six, right? Yep. Okay. So we're going to go ahead and start. The first question was from Isabelle and her question is, how do I get from where I am to where I want to be? Well, Isabel that is a a, I mean, that's a, that's a personal question, right? I can't answer that for you, but I can lay down kind of the the roadmap, right?

Raymond: 01:43 So the first thing to figure out is where do you want to beat, right? There, this is good analogy. Now I've never been sailing before in my life, but apparently when you go sailing, you don't plan your trip like you do in a car. Like I start from my house, how do I get to here? Okay, first I take a left turn out of my, you know, driveway or whatever. What you do is you plan backwards is that you plan from the destination to where you are currently. And that is how you plan sailing. And that is I think the best way to get from where you are to where you want to be. So the first step is defining where is it that you want to be. And I would encourage you to like really dig deep and find out what that means to you, right?

Raymond: 02:25 Like what is it that you want to be shooting? How much of that do you want to be shooting? If it's business related how much money do you want to be making? And then if you know how many clients you want, just divide that number by how much you want to make by how many clients you want to have. And then there's how much your average session fee should be if you don't want to be taking on clients. And then you figure out you know, the genre photography that you want to shoot. And then my next step would be go out to find others who have done exactly what it is that you want to do and then

talk to them. That's the whole reason why I started the right. I just wanted to talk to photographers better than me so that I could get better in my skills.

Raymond: 03:05 And then you guys are listening to the guests as well, which is going to better bring up your skills. So again, how to get from where you am to where you, where you are to where you want to be. Figure out where you want to be and then talk to people who have done it before you. And then I would get their advice. Start from there. Okay. next question is from Kimberly. Kimberly asks, where do we find your light room presets? I believe somewhere available somewhere and I could be wrong. Whoa, Kimberly, you really went back in the in the archives of the episodes and you're absolutely right. So those presets that this is the thing about podcasting that I'm realizing is like, it's not, it's not a weekly thing. Like whatever I put out goes out for years.

Raymond: 03:55 So very early on in the in the history of the podcast, we did offer presets for people to a that they could download. Unfortunately as there was some changes behind the scenes, I can no longer offer those presets. But I have made some new presets. They're, they're, they're a whole lot more, there's a Levon presets, I believe that they are, and they're an entirely different category. We went a different direction with the podcast. But if you're still interested in those presets they can either be purchased a on the beginning of photography, podcasts website which I will link, leave a link if that's possible as well as if you become a patron of the podcast, those presets are now available to you as well. So I hope that that helped. Okay. Next question from Michael.

Raymond: 04:52 If Michael is still here Michael Asks One, he has two questions. Do I really need a full frame camera to be competitive in the field and to, is there a light room, quote unquote elements that's a onetime buy and not a subscription. So two great questions. I'm going to tackle the first one first. That's always a great place to start unless you're sailing. Number one. Do I need a full frame camera to be competitive in the field? The short answer is no. No you don't. The long answer would be what field are you trying to be competitive in and how do you define competitive? Right. if you're asking, do you need a full frame camera to be proficient in a field of photography? No, you don't. I don't think that you need a full frame camera doll. In fact, I switched from full frame cameras, full frame canon cameras with the assortment of lenses.

Raymond: 05:51 Two crop sensor, Fuji Cameras. And I noticed a, I mean there were some hiccups on the camera side of things that have since been fixed since I first switched with, with hardware upgrades and software upgrades. But as far as the aesthetically speaking I was worried about that. I gotta be honest. I was worried because when I, when I was first starting out, I have a canon, I started with a cannon, a x t and then I went to the cannon a 40 d and I kept thinking to myself like, oh my gosh, you know, think of how great these images are going to look once I go full frame. And what I realized once I went full frame is that it's really not that much of a difference. It's really not. And I think that the, especially if you're shooting anything more than you know, 10 or 15 feet away, you're not going to notice much of a difference if you're, if, if you're shooting like astro photography, going full frame is probably smart just so that you have that extra full frame sensors can, can gather in more light and therefore it makes it a little easier.

Raymond: 06:53 But even for me shooting weddings where I shoot in pretty dark areas like reception venues and stuff, I've, I've been extremely happy as well as I've also never had a single client say anything about the photos aesthetically in, in a negative sense. Since switching to Fuji with Crop Sensor Lenses, so or crop sensors. So do I think that you need a full frame camera to be competitive in the field? Nope. I don't, let's go back to your other question, which was, is there a light room, quote unquote elements that is a onetime buy and not a subscription. So what he means by that is with Photoshop and with like Adobe premier,

you can buy like Photoshop elements or Adobe premier elements. And these are kind of like basic versions of of like the full fledged software. Adobe does not offer a light room elements.

Raymond: 07:53 And I think that's because a light rooms biggest, the re the, the, the point of light room is, is of course you can do some editing, but it's more along the organizational side, right? If it was all about editing, we would just have Photoshop, right? But with light room we have the ability to organize vast amounts of photos and then do some editing as well. But we look at it as an editing program. In fact, the name alone is, its official name is Adobe Photoshop light room. So, so it's not trying to be a Photoshop competitor, it's a branch of Photoshop and therefore it's more focused on the organization or the, yeah, I'm the organization. That being said, I did look up some light room alternatives. I can tell you that I've never used any of them because I exclusively use light room because it's what I've used for so long and you know, it paying for it for me makes sense as a, as a business decision.

Raymond: 08:54 So I will leave this link in the comments, but there is also some great information. So the first one that I found is on one pro or photo Raw 2019. So when you click on it, it takes you to this page right here, which you can see. And one of their first articles is switched from Adobe today. Learn how easy it is to switch your workflow on, on one. So yeah, like I said, I will leave the links below for you to check these out. It has a 30 day free trial, I believe. Is that what it says? Yeah. try it free today. No credit card required. So I would I would give that a shot because if you're not looking to pay for you know, a monthly subscription to light room, then this could be a really good alternative to you if it, but I would say legitimately, I would say, because I think a lot of people are kind of hung up on the subscription idea of lightroom.

Raymond: 09:53 And if, if, if you just looking to do some basic editing in photos, there are so many like free options, right? So many free options, including if you're on a Mac, just like the preview or photos that every Mac comes built in with photos. So you can, you can use that. You can edit photos in there and do it that way. But if I had to do it all over again knowing how powerful light room is, I would, I would probably pay the $10 a month, which includes both a Photoshop and Lightroom. I think. I think that's a killer deal. I use it more than I watch Netflix and we play, we pay more of it for, you know, Netflix. So it makes sense for me. So next question comes from Graham asks, why do I bother trying?

Raymond: 10:44 And I asked grantm for some more context. I said, talk to me what's going on? That's what I want to know, Graham, if you're watching, man, let me, let me know what's up. Okay, next question is from Leah. She says, is it better to use the view finder or the screen? I'm sure it's a preference, but what are the pros and cons of the two yet? You're right, it's totally a preference. Totally a preference. A, there are some pros and cons. Especially. Okay. So as you get into higher caliber cameras, so there's less of a, of a difference between the pros and cons. But I will say that when you shoot with the viewfinder, it's much faster. It's much more intuitive experience because you're in it, you're, you're immersed in the whole situation and you kind of have all the information that you need right in that little square that you're looking through and you can actually see what's going on, right?

Raymond: 11:39 But you know, your, your aperture, your ISO and your shutter speed all within the viewfinder that's technically all that you need. That's all that you need to take a photo where using the screen comes in handy is being able to see an accurate representation of the seen in front of you, right? So if you adjust your shutter speed or your aperture ISO, you can see how it affects the exposure of your photo. Either the, either the photo gets brighter or it gets darker, right? And you can see that. You can see how the photo will turn out. The problem comes a for me at least with traditional DSLRs, is that if you're looking at it through the screen and then you go to take the picture, the, the, the mirror has to

close, the shutter has to close and then it has to open and then open again to expose for photo rather than video.

Raymond: 12:28 Because the only way for it to see a video is to get that raw sensor information. So when you go to take a picture, it has to turn all that off, take a photo and then turn it all back on. And that is a very long process. On top of that, I mean lot long in term like, you know, it's like, I don't know, two or three seconds to take a photo, but when you're at like a wedding or something and like you need that like response time, it's too long. The next thing I've found is that auto focus is nowhere near as fast when you are using the screen on the back of the camera than if you're just using the view finder. And that's because when you're using the view finder rather than the screen, you're looking out through the glass and you're not, the sensor is free to do any calculations that it, that it needs to do or I guess the camera, the sensor is not really doing any calculations about the camera itself is free to do any calculations that it needs, including a figuring out exactly what should be in focus and nailing that focus.

Raymond: 13:23 So it is a preference, you know, if you're just shooting you know, like flowers around the house or something. Yeah, I would say go for it. You know, just use the screen if it's easier for you and make sure that you nail exposure. Or if you use a mirrorless camera like the Fuji cameras that I use since there's no mirror issue to go through a, they're kind of made for that, but kind of made for being able to use the screen if you wanted to. And I I do that quite often. Leah, I hope that that answers your questions. If you have an entry level DSLR, it's not going to be as easy. If you have a, a mirrorless camera, then it's more made for that and it's easier to do. But it is kind of a preference.

Raymond: 14:03 Next question is from Riley. Riley is a he's been in the group for awhile. He says how do I get started in wedding photography? How do I get my first wedding even for free in a new city? So Riley, this is a good one. This is a good question. When you get started in a new city, if I were to move, I'll tell you what, if I were to move to a new city today, what I would do is I would I would put out, I have a Facebook page right with my business on it. What I would do is probably reach out to probably start some Facebook ads, right? Do some Facebook ads, just tried to network, try to meet people. And if you're just starting off, just starting out, offer a free engagement session, right?

Raymond: 14:48 Offer free engagement sessions to couples. If they are looking for a free engagement session, they're probably going to get married. And then if you provide a good enough experience, there's a great chance that they will book you to shoot their wedding. So that's, that's what I would do. And then at that point, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't have to be free if you, you know, if, if, if you give them a free engagement session and then they like working with you and they liked your photos, they're not going to expect a, a, a free wedding. So that is how I would suggest getting into wedding photography if you're moving to a new city. Next question, not a beginner question, but a question nonetheless is from Omar by the way. He says a, when should you use hard light and when should you use Softlight in your pictures to take artistic style, take artistic style out of the equation and just go for the technical factor.

Raymond: 15:37 No problem. Let's see. Well, Omar the short answer is you can't take anything artistic out of the equation when it comes to photography because photography is art, right? When it comes to lighting, like that's a choice. You can always choose the light that you use, right? Now it may not be without any additional work, but you can always choose the life that you are going to use and therefore I'll try to answer your question in sort of a technical way. When should I use heartlight and when should we use Softlight in photos? Soft light is always going to be best for I take that back. You know what? Start off with soft light.

Start off just looking for soft light. Don't overwhelm yourself trying to do everything all at once. So focus on the soft light. That's all that you need to worry about.

Raymond: 16:28 Okay? Once you figure that out, then you can move on to trying to make hard light work for your photos. But when it comes to hard light, hard light is typically more of a, it's definitely more artistic. It's more stylized. And it's used to accentuate like details and textures. So like staircases buildings you know, things with like hard lines, things that are like engineered, right? I think always looked best with hard light. It gives it a very strong feeling. But as, as far as the soft light goes, I would say I just always look for soft light. It is very rare that I come into an occasion where hard light is like, this is the answer, this is the one that I need to use. And then that is what I, what I do. So just focus on trying to see the soft light because that's going to be the majority of the light that you shoot under.

Raymond: 17:20 And then once you feel like you have a really good grasp on that, once you feel like you can go out and find that naturally, then go ahead and start working on hard light. Next question is from a Darrell. Darrell said lighting is a good one. For a question, do I need an external flash or off camera like a luma cube or don't worry about it. Well they're all, you should always worry about lighting. Lighting is one of the most important factors in photography. Photography in the Greek translation means writing with light, essentially like recording light, documenting light and therefore it's very important. You need to always be focused on it. So when you ask do I need an external flash or like an off camera, like a luma cube I can tell you that a flash is probably the one thing.

Raymond: 18:16 Learning how to use flash properly is going to be the one thing to where if you are proficient in using your camera, if you're proficient in shooting in manual and you're like, okay, like I get it, I can shoot manual. Like this is how photography works. If you want to level up, if you want to get to the next level of the aesthetic of your photos, it is going to be in off camera flash. Now, the next question is do I need an external flash or an off camera, like a, like a loom. So what you mean is like a, like a video light or something, something that doesn't just like pop light but something that keeps light on continuous thing. I think as we go on, so a flash will give you so much more power, so much more power.

Raymond: 18:57 I mean the amount of the amount of flash power that comes out of like a, I should, I should have one right around me. They're all in my bag. So the amount of power that comes out from a flash, like a hand, like a on camera flash is enough to overpower the sun and you can get that amount of power by using four AA batteries. You know what I mean? But if you want it that much light power continuously from like a video light, you would need to have enough electricity to electrocute an elephant. And like, I'm not joking, like it's a lot more electricity. So a flash will give you a lot more power and a lot more control. But the Luma cube or some sort of video light will give you instant feedback and it is more convenient that way.

Raymond: 19:43 So it's up to you. But if you ask you and your question with or don't worry about it, no, definitely worry about it. Lighting is the most important factor of photography. And once you learn how to master light, once you learn how to see light correctly the, the quality of your photos is just kind of explode. It just gonna go up. Okay. Next question is from norm. How do I use a flash correctly? Well, normal. Great segue. I love that. How do you use a flash correctly? A flash. It's funny that you ask I should've brought this out before. Let's see. I have a whole course on how to use flash. It is called flash in a flash. This isn't like a, you know like a one size fits all class. This is not going to turn you in from somebody who's, who's never used a camera to somebody who's taking like incredible photos.

Raymond: 20:38 This course is for people who know how to use manual. It is your, are proficient in your skills in a shooting with your camera, your DSLR, or your mirrorless

camera. But this literally takes you through everything. I mean from opening up the box for your flash for the first time to you know, going out and shooting in crazy locations in beautiful or harsh light and getting incredible results. So if you want to check that out, I'll put that in the link below as well. So next question is from Brooke. She asks, how do you keep photos looking consistent in different lighting? That's a hard one. That's a hard one. You know our eyes naturally just kinda properly expose everything, right? So when we go out it can be hard to see a big quantity of light in, in different situations.

Raymond: 21:29 And I think same with color. Our eyes are really good at figuring out correct colors, accurate colors. But a camera is not so much. So how do you keep your photos looking consistent in different lighting? And the answer for me at least is editing, is editing. That's it, right? If you can get a great exposure in camera editing, just puts on the finishing touches. If you go out and you you know, go a little bit over, expose a little underexposed, then you can fix those problems in, in Lightroom to edit everything so that they look consistent. But I think that's probably what you're going to be doing most of right now in the stage of photography. But as time goes on, you are going to learn more and more to be able to shoot it right in camera. Next question is from Brooke.

Raymond: 22:20 She says, my landscapes always look kind of fuzzy. I tried to keep the ISO down. Aperture is in between eight and 11. If I can, oh, if I can. And they just never look as sharp as I would like them to as I'll ask help. And I said Brooke, what Lens Are you using? So she said that she is using the 70, 75 to 300 millimeter kit lens. And then actually I said, what your shutter speed. And she says, I keep the shutter speed as fast as I can depending on the lighting I'm working with and not try to go below 150. So Brooke, it sounds like you're doing all the right things, right? You have a, a small aperture to keep everything in focus using a fast shutter speed to make sure that there's no motion blur. So what's going on?

Raymond: 23:06 The truth is it's honestly in this case, it is the lens of the Ket Lens that comes with your camera is generally made out of plastic and therefore the image quality is not so good. When, when you know, you, you tell a photo in and get close to things, things like a chromatic aberration where the light just doesn't meet up correctly on the sensor, even just like a tiny, tiny, tiny amount will show up in the edges of, of all of the edges, all the contrast, the edges of anything in your frame. And that is going to give it a look that is not not sharp, but one that is soft. So hope that helps. I hope that, I hope that made sense. So to, to get over you could you would have to upgrade your lens honestly, to something that is like an all glass construction.

Raymond: 23:52 So typically if you're shooting like that telephoto what would probably do you well is the any else series lens. So Canon makes a a 24 to one oh five, it's an f four lens. But the all glass construction makes images much, much, much sharper for you. Okay. Next question comes from Thomas and he says, how do you keep your photography business running without it killing your love for photography? And then I got an amen on that one. So this is a hard one because this is one that I'm I've faced to be honest, I'll be honest with you. I've faced this when you go out and you shoot, like for a living, like it's your photography business. It does become a job at some point, right? You get into it because it's creative and then at some point it becomes a job.

Raymond: 24:41 And that, not that it's a bad job, right? It's one of the best jobs, but that's not the question that you're asking. It is how do you keep your photography business running without killing your love for photography? And for me, I think that the answer is getting out and shooting something that you are more passionate about, right? So I love shooting weddings. I love going to weddings. I love people like literally on the happiest days of their lives. And I get to share that time with them, right? And then they feed me cake, right? Like it's a great day. It is a great day. And I love the experience being around such like positive

people is, is, is fun and it's exhilarating, right? But at the end of the day, all of these people as much as I love them and they are great, you know, wonderful clients, like they're not my kids, right?

Raymond: 25:28 And I'm going to have naturally more of a passion and more drive to, to spend time with my kids. So what I do is I just photographed my kids, right? We go out and I want to do something fun. I want to put them in that fun environment that that I'm often at with brides and and grooms at weddings. Like they're having fun, they're having a great time, that makes me happy and want to photograph. So I put my kids in those sorts of environments. I take them to the park, I go, you know, do fun activities. We go to the fair, like we do fun stuff. And then I document that I photograph that because now they're in a great mood. I'm having fun, I'm watching them, I can document this process and that fulfills me. So even though you love photographing things, it's possible that you are photographing things that you're not a hundred percent passionate about and that can be difficult.

Raymond: 26:19 Or so. So then if that's the case, then you know, then you would have to find something that you are extremely passionate about and also photograph that. Or if you discover that what it is that you are photographing that you're not super passionate about, then then you need to transition. You need to stop doing that thing that you don't enjoy and start photographing what it is that you do enjoy. Next question is from Charlene. She says focusing modes. That's her question. They make my brain hurt. I don't know why I just leave it on auto, but I'm wondering to pry open, I'm wanting to practice manual. Any podcasts or articles of yours about this that you can recommend. I have a Nikon focusing is not the easiest thing in the world. You are not alone, Charlene. It is not. It is not something that everybody, it's not as intuitive as a lot of people think that it should be.

Raymond: 27:12 And I agree. I think that it should be a more intuitive than what it is. But it's not. So this is what, this is what we got to do. In fact, a long time ago, a Canon had a film camera that inside of the viewfinder it would see where you were looking at somehow and then it would focus on that thing and I thought that is the coolest thing in the world. Like that is like, that is wonderful. We should do more of that, but for some reason, I don't know if it's a fixed analogy behind it, but we, we moved, we moved away from that. So that's unfortunate as far as wanting to practice manual, manual focus is, is depending on what you're shooting, it is going to be the biggest nightmare of your life. Right? I think that auto focus is like is a blessing.

Raymond: 27:55 It is one of the best things in the world because it's so much faster. And if you, if you understand how to use it, it is, it's way faster and it's more accurate than manual focusing is. So I always let the camera do that work. Now if you're photographing things like flowers or you know, birds beat, you know, whatever it is, like things that aren't as eventful I suppose where things aren't as hectic where you have to move around and you have to like do things quick and capture things quick. Manual photography could work just fine for you. In fact, like there's been plenty of times where I tried to take a photo of something like really close up and then the lens like Hunt's for focus and that is really frustrating. So that is when I turned on manual focus. But when it comes to focusing modes, I would say start off with the easiest and just use single point auto focus mode and then just use the single point in the middle of your camera.

Raymond: 28:49 So van is what I would that is what I would focus on first as far as articles or podcasts about it. We don't have any because people who are looking for something like that are looking for like like an exact answer on their camera and there's just so many different cameras, you know, camera models that it's impossible to you know, make up, make an article for each one. So we we have, we haven't done that. Next question I believe is from Fricker. If I got that wrong, I apologize. She says how do I know when my photos are good

enough? Seems like a lot can be done with post-processing, but I'd rather work on my skills for straight out of camera first. A great intuition and I agree with you 100% if you know that you can get a shot right in camera than the amount of editing.

Raymond: 29:44 Okay. Well let me, let me start off with this. Like high-end like commercial photographers have to do a lot of Photoshop work, right? A lot of composite work. So their photos are already in Photoshop, right? Which is like the, like the, like the world's best resource to edit photos and manipulate photos. But does that mean that they can just kinda like be relaxed when they're shooting the images? Absolutely not. Like there is more attention paid. There's more attention to detail paid while shooting in that situation so that when the photos are brought into Photoshop or whatever, you know, editing program, they have to manipulate the image. It is done and it is right. And that is the way that we need to learn how to shoot. We need to stop looking at Lightroom and Photoshop as, as bandaids for our bad photos.

Raymond: 30:42 Although it can do that, but we need to look at, we need to start with the camera first. If we make sure that the, the, the photos that we take that are coming out of camera are great. First editing is just going to be a breeze and it is going to be enjoyable. It's not going to be something that you dread. So once again, how do I know my photos are good enough? My, my, my, my first reaction was good enough when you're editing, but I guess that's not the question. How do I know that my photos are good enough? I guess that you have to define what is good enough. You know, I can't answer that for you. That's not a very technical question. I can't just say when it's properly exposed, it's good enough because it's more than just that. It is more than you know, getting a good expression.

Raymond: 31:25 Because if you get a good expression and the photo was terribly underexposed or overexposed, it's still a bad photo. If you get a great exposure, but it's a terrible expression or nothing's going on in the frame, it's a terrible photo. So it's really a culmination of a lot of different things from composition from having the right settings. And then just like a little bit of magic, you know, just being in the right place at the right time. But as far as like like how do you know when your photos are good enough? I guess I need a little more information on that question. Do you mean good enough before you start editing or good enough just to shoot out a camera to, to, to be done with? So that would be my answer though, honestly. Like if you are happy with the photos, then they're done.

Raymond: 32:07 That's it. You know, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to do like the perfect debt and spend all this time to like make the, you know, everything perfect. And then there's no definition of perfect, you know, it just do like it. But I think when we're faced with so many different choices of sliders and buttons and options, we're never going to think, say, this is perfect when we know that we can do something else. So it's hard and I think that as time goes on, you're going to figure that out. But today you just gotta keep working, putting in the work. Next question comes from Cory. Do you use Photoshop or Lightroom more Cory? I use light room way more. I use light room like 98% of my workflow because most of my work is is, is, is, is shot closer to right in camera.

Raymond: 32:47 So there therefore I don't have to manipulate the photo. I look at Photoshop as photo manipulation and Lightroom as just basic edits and I typically just have to do more basic edits than total manipulation. So yeah, light room more for me. Okay. Next question. Ashley. Do a, the number of focal points really matter on camera and if they do, is that a huge difference to buy one with more focal points? Well, actually my first DSLR was the canon x t and it had seven auto focus points, two on each side, two on the top and bottom, and then one right in the center. And I got focused, you know, whenever I needed it. I had a hard time a lot of times, but it had a total of seven auto focus points. Okay. The New Canon

Eos are, has 5,000, 600 auto focus points and it goes from edge to edge of the amount of auto focus points.

Raymond: 33:45 So yes, it will make a huge difference, but this is one of those things that like, as time goes on, like I would say five years from now, every single sensor is going to have to full frame auto focus capabilities. It's not just going to be like, oh, a handful of points or even like a lot of points, it's going to be like, oh, it doesn't even matter because we have enough. It's like megapixels, you know what I mean? After like five megapixels, everything else is just extra. It's just extra. So therefore will it make a huge difference? Yeah, absolutely. And that is why we're working on making it better and better. But for today I would say you know, I think my Kenneth 70 d has like 19 auto focus points or something like that. And that's enough for me.

Raymond: 34:27 You know, like when I'm, when I'm shooting. But I will say that my Fuji Expo Two has 391 auto focus points and that camera it seems to be more intelligent when I, when I go to take a photo and it chooses focus. So next question comes from Akshay. Can we have a podcast on how to get good at composition and what to do to get inspiration for developing skills? Okay, great question. As far as, so composition is simply for those listening is simply how a frame is composed, how like where you point the camera, where the camera is in space, when you take a photo and then how that affects the frame for if you take a photo down low looking up, it is going to look entirely different than if you have the camera up high looking down. Right? But if you know, you don't have to change, you know, you don't have to move your feet, you don't have to change any settings.

Raymond: 35:22 Just, just changing where the camera is in space. Makes two entirely different photos. So talking about good composition and how do we get inspiration for developing skills, to be honest I haven't made a podcast on this because it's hard to talk about, you know, it's a very visual thing to talk about and that is why I I haven't made a podcast episode on it, but I did make a, a whole blog post about it. It is called the ultimate beginner photographers guide to composition. And in it, I go through my three favorites compositions, like the easiest ones to get started and how I use them, how, you know, you can use them as a beginner and how you can do intermediate and then into advanced and then with a whole bunch of examples of my own kids throughout their lives as well as putting them all together.

Raymond: 36:14 Like how, like, how to keep looking out for these things. So that is I will, I will leave a link for that as well and if you're listening to the podcast that will be in the show notes. I, all of the links that I post will be in the show notes. Okay. So a great question. I would check that out. As far as inspiration goes, to be honest, I would say paintings, paintings, like like old paintings. Like we're like Rembrandt like Da Vinci and set like I would go back and look at those paintings because those were math. Like they didn't have any sort of extras. So they had to like be able to see it and like something made them stand out and oftentimes it was both the lighting and the composition and, and paintings make great, great, great compositions. So check out some of those.

Raymond: 37:05 Google is a great resource. Google arts I believe it is, is a, is a great resource for that. So just take some time and go through them. Check 'em out. Next question is from Jer. How do I take a good picture? How do I take a good picture indoors without off camera flash and like terrible nursing home colored walls. I think sage and eggshell and cadet blue with the worst placing of windows ever. I feel like it's a white balance thing, but I've never had to play with the white balance a ton shooting softball and outdoors unless it is just insanely bright. So then Jared says a, and I would sell my soul for a sports photography guest. Guess what Jer? I interviewed Vinny bugliese on the podcast who has become a, a a

friend of mine who I will I will post the link below and post it in the show notes as well for you to listen.

Raymond: 38:00 It was a great, great, wonderful episode. So Jer is a question about how do I take a good picture indoors without off camera flash? Well you're right, it is a y balance thing and it's because the different types of light, right? So fluorescent light is green and it's gross window light is blue. When you mix these together and like everything's kind of PR, like it just doesn't look very good. It's washed out. You right. You know, you're absolutely right. As far as off camera flash goes, you don't need an off camera flash. If a, you know, sage and Eggshell, I'm assuming, I'm assuming that the, that the ceiling is white, right? The ceiling, nine times out of 10 is going to be white, especially in a nursing home. So you don't have to have an off camera flash. If you just have a flash that you put on your camera, all that you gotta do is point it straight up at the ceiling.

Raymond: 38:45 It doesn't have to be off of your camera at all. So that when you take a photo, what do we know about light, right? Softlight comes from a large light source. That is why on a cloudy day there's less shadows on the ground because the light is being diffused from the sun through the clouds and dispersing, making it much softer light, which looks better. So what you can do is take your flash pointed at the ceiling. Now the ceiling is the entire light source. The ceiling is the entire light source, much larger than a flash head. And then when it bounces off the ceiling down on the people you're taking, a photo of it is very soft, nice light. And now because that light can just overpower everything else, you don't have to worry about that other light. You don't have to turn off lights or anything.

Raymond: 39:28 It is so much brighter that to that to get the exposure that you need for that Flash, it will underexpose all the other types of light and you will get consistent lighting. So I mean, you could do that for like 60 bucks. You know, you can buy an, or you can buy a a dedicated flash to put on your camera for like 60 bucks. So I use the the yungnuo 560 IV and you can find those on Amazon again, super cheap. And I, I use them all the time. The great next question we're coming to the end is from Christina. Christina says, when I should have manual, how do I know what to start your settings at?

Raymond: 40:11 For anything like portraits, landscape, kids, et cetera. Is this just something you learn over time? I feel like I'm constantly like, okay, let's try these settings for this shot and see what happens and then hold on. She's got a follow up. How do I ensure that your posts will be sized correctly for high quality print such as canvas? Okay. Yeah, that's a, that's a different question. Okay. So let's tackle this first one first and we got a garbage truck outside. So if you can't hear me, I apologize. Okay. So when shooting manual, how do you know what to start your settings at? Well, great question. I start all of my settings exactly the same at every single shoot and then I adjust from that. My settings always start out at F 2.8 at a shutter speed of one to 50th of a second at ISO one above base.

Raymond: 41:00 So on my Fuji Cameras, the base ISO is 200. So I start off at 400 on Canon cameras. The base ISO is 100. So I go up to 200 and then I take a photo, right? And then I look at, I look at it on the back of the camera, I look at the histogram to see if it's properly exposed or not. And if it's too bright, the first thing that I do, I turned down the ISO because it doesn't need to be anything higher than as low as it can go with the photos too bright. And then I also speed up my shutter speed as well. I take another photo and then if it's too bright, like you gotta look at the, the light meter on the inside of your viewfinder. The light meter is the thing. It looks like a little a set of numbers.

Raymond: 41:39 It should have like a plus one plus two plus three. And then on the other side it has a negative one, negative two, negative three. And what that is, is telling you how exposed your photo is. If it's plus one, it's saying that your f that the camera thinks

that your is one stop over exposed. If it says negative two, it thinks that be your photos, two stops underexposed. So what I do is I adjust my shutter speed to get it right in the middle. I take a photo and then I adjust from there because oftentimes the camera doesn't make the right decisions when it comes to what is properly exposed and what it's not properly exposed. I like to make that decision, but those are the settings that I started with for the, you know, for first session. Every single time when I show up to a session, those are my settings.

Raymond: 42:20 But as time goes on you will get better at reading light and you will be able to see like, oh, you know what? Actually I know that these are all my settings and I haven't even taken a photo yet, but it is, you know, it's too dim out here. I'm going to bump up my ISO to, you know, 800 and I'm going to slow down my shutter speed to one, one 25th of a second, and then we can go from there. Then you take a photo and then you make those slight adjustments. So, Oh, if that helps. And your next question was how do I ensure that photos will be sized correctly for high quality prints such as canvases, et Cetera? Well, the, the, the answer is if your camera is more than five megapixels, you can just export your photos at full resolution every time and they will be perfect.

Raymond: 42:59 They will be perfect. You know, you can't, I'm not going to add resolution. The thing is like, it's not like what's that phrase like trying to fit 10 pounds of potatoes in a five pound sack or something like that. It's not like that, right? When you have all these extra pixels, if you try to upload it to print it on a canvas, it'll just, you know, adjust and we'll just, you know, make the photo fit that canvas. It's not going to make it gigantic. So I would just export everything at full resolution and then you know that you're set and okay. Laurie has one more question. She says, what is the lowest mega pixel image you would send to a client after cropping and editing? What is the lowest megapixel image I would send to a client after cropping and editing? Well, the truth is when it comes to delivering images, you got to think what I do naturally is I just export full resolution images, right?

Raymond: 43:52 From my clients. I just deliver full resolution images. They get it all right. Every single pixel, it's there. So you can do whatever it is that they want with it. If they upload it to Facebook, it's fine. If they want to get it printed, it's fine. But if you were to do something where a lot of portrait photographers shoot, and then they edit the photos small in the hopes that their clients will purchase prints, right? Because suddenly if the photo is too small to print, then they have to come to you to buy the prints. And that makes sense. That's not the, the area of photography that I'm in. But if you, honestly, like if you, it's hard nowadays because screens are such high resolution. If you just take a screenshot of something that's going to be large enough to print, you know, if you take a screenshot on your computer, that's going to be large enough to print.

Raymond: 44:40 But I wouldn't deliver anything personally. I wouldn't deliver anything smaller than five megapixels. Honestly. You can do pretty much anything with five megapixels and that's what I want. But if you wanted to go that path the way you didn't want clients to print your photos without your permission or without going through you, then one megapixel would be the largest and that would be you know there would technically be high definition is one megapixel. So there's that. It's all up to you and it's a, it's a personal choice. I choose not to go that way just because it, you know, with kids at home, it just doesn't make sense for me to spend all that extra time to make a few extra dollars on prints. If people are happy with their photos, I want them to do whatever it is that they want with them.

Raymond: 45:25 So, okay, guys, that is it. Thank you so much for joining me today on this Q&A for the beginner photography podcast Facebook group. I had a great time answering your questions. If you want your questions answered be sure to head over to Facebook and join the group yourself. We are now at what's the official count, 1,120 members in the group and it is one of the group is so active that I have a hard time keeping up. I gotta be

honest. But it is so much fun to jump in and answer these questions for you all at once. So head over to facebook.com and search the beginning photography podcast. You'll find the group and then a request to join. There are just a few quick questions once you answer them, you're in the group and then is it all right? Until next week, I want you to get out. I want you to keep shooting. I want you to stay safe and I want you to focus on yourself. That's it. I love you all.

outro: 46:17 If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.

BPP 148: YOUR Photography Questions Answered!

Automated transcription by temi.com

BPP 147: Stop Taking Snapshots and Start Taking Photographs

A lot of you are taking snapshots, thinking they are photographs.

Today we are going to break down the difference between them and I’ll share some actionable tips on how you can take less snapshots, and more photographs.

Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

Full Episode Transcription:

Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.

Raymond: 00:00 Hey Raymond here from the beginner photography podcast. And today we're discussing the difference between a snapshot and a photograph. So let's get into it.

Intro: 00:10 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfield, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raymond interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now with you as always, husband, father, home brewer, La Dodger Fan, an Indianapolis wedding photographer, Raymond Hatfield.

Raymond: 00:40 Welcome back to today's episode of the podcast. If you are here listening right now, I just want to let you know that I am grateful that you are here and want to learn more about your camera. I hope that I can help you out here along your journey. So let's get into today's episode. Today's episode is going to be about the difference, like I said, between a snapshot and a photograph. These are two very different things and I think that a lot of new photographers can get,uconfused by this. So we're going to talk a lot about that and,ushare some tips on how you can be taking more photographs. But first, first thing is, first I want to give a shout out to a recent,ureview of the podcast, the left on iTunes. Now, this review was not from Deb. Deb is in the podcast group, so I'm excited to share this one.

Raymond: 01:30 Deb says, for anybody wanting to learn photography from the ground up, this is your podcast. Raymond is a born teacher, easy to listen to and through his interviews with guests and solo teachings answers your questions about cameras, equipment, and photography that it'd beginner may not even know what to ask. Deb, thank you so much for that a review. And you're absolutely right. You don't know what you don't know. So I hope that I can facilitate some questions that can see the can, you know, get the brain going and get you excited about photography and keep you learning. So Deb, once again, thank you so much for leaving a review for the podcast in iTunes. If you're listening and are enjoying the podcast, I cannot tell you how grateful I would be. If you were to take just a moment of your time and leave the podcast a review on whatever podcast player you are listening to, it truly helps the podcast be found by other new photographers as well as guests who want to come on the show.

Raymond: 02:29 So if you would do that once again, I, I can't thank you enough. So Deb, thank you. I really appreciate it. Okay, let's get into today's episode. Once again, the difference between a snapshot and a photograph. A lot of you are taking a snapshot's as a, as a, as a new photographer. I remember that I was taking a lot of snapshots as well. And I wasn't

really taking the photographs, but I thought that I was, so today we're going to break down kind of all of this and I'm going to share some tips on how to take less snapshots and more photographs. So I'm going to take you back to that mindset that I had when I first started off in today. Kind of like Deb's review. I just kind of put this together is going to be a lot about maybe things that you are a unaware of.

Raymond: 03:16 Like maybe when you say the difference between a snapshot and a photograph, you can, you can figure out like what the difference is in your head. But how do you, how do you stop, you know, how do you, how do you take less snapshots in more photographs? So that is what this whole episode is going to be about. So when I first started in photography a while I went to film school because I wanted to study cinematography and then I picked up a camera, like a, a still camera and found it way more enjoyable in a creative release than cinematography was. And then that's when I really got started in photography to kind of, to take me to where I am today. But I thought, I still remember that day when I got my, I think it was a 2000 and it had been 2007 when I got my a cannon, a rebel x t camera and this thing was like eight megapixels.

Raymond: 04:09 It was, it was like one of the first entry level. I'm pretty sure that it was the first entry level DSLR that camera that Canon had made. And I was, I was elated. I was so excited to pick up this camera and I thought like, I went out immediately that day. Actually. It was funny, I thought that I bought it on Ebay used and I thought that it came with a memory card, but it didn't. And I was like every camera store that I went to to pick up a memory card, it was a CF card, so you couldn't find them. It just like Walmart and stuff like that. But every camera store that I went to was selling. I think that my first memory card was a, was a 128 megabytes. But regardless, like, you know, the camera stores were selling them for like 50 or 60 bucks.

Raymond: 04:55 And I thought, now I have to buy this thing online and wait for it to be shipped to me cause it was much cheaper. And that's what I did. But those first probably like three or four days, I actually turned off the the requirement that you had to have a card in the camera to shoot because I just wanted to go out and shoot and see what the, what the result would look like on the back of my camera. So I went out to start shooting and what I thought was every photo that I was taking was now a photograph. It was no longer just a snapshot. It wasn't just a point and shoot camera. And I was taking beautiful photographs. Now at the time I believe that I was already shooting manual because I, that's what I had been taught in film school.

Raymond: 05:38 So I knew that all the settings transferred over from a, from a cinema camera to a still camera. But still I would go out and essentially shooting manual to me was just getting the exposure correct, lining up changing my settings so that in the, in the camera, the light meter would be right in the center and it would be properly exposed and I would just take the photo and then that would be it. Right. And what I was doing without knowing it was I was taking snapshots, I wasn't taking photographs. So let's talk about that now. A snapshot is, let's talk about what a snapshot is. Wikipedia defines a snapshot as a photograph taken without preparation. And I would say that that is about right. And like I said earlier, I could almost just in this episode right now and like that's the information, but that wouldn't really be helpful.

Raymond: 06:34 So a snapshot is, is just that, right? It's a photo that anybody can take because no skill and no talent is being used to, to, to capture what somebody else can see for themselves. No preparation is involved. A photograph. On the other hand, a photograph is a photo taken with, actually, I should probably should have seen what Wikipedia said about the definition of a photograph, but it probably would have been too literal. But the way that I classify a photograph is it's a photo that has been taken with artistic intention. So

almost the exact opposite of a snapshot. So a snapshot is defined as a photo taken without preparation. And I define a photograph as a photo taken with artistic intentions, meaning that you have to have some sort of preparation to, to take the photo because a photograph captures more than just quote unquote what it is, but it captures how you, the photographer want it to be seen.

Raymond: 07:47 Those are two very different things, very different things. What it is and how you want it to be seen are two very different things. Very famous. And prolific landscape photographer Ansel Adams has a very famous quote that is that there are two people in every photograph, the viewer and the photographer. And I think that that speaks very true to the difference between a snapshot and a photograph because every photo tells a different story to everybody else based on our different life experiences. Now you just simply cannot be intentional when taking a photo, when you're shooting in auto and that that becomes a problem. And that's because all of the decisions are being made by the camera. So a snapshot is without any preparation. You pick up a camera and you press the button, right? You press the shutter button, you take the photo, and then that's it.

Raymond: 08:55 If you have to come up with, you know, the settings and you have to figure out, you know, everything else, suddenly it's not a snapshot. It's more than just a snapshot. And there isn't anything inherently wrong with a snapshot. That's just what it is. And to be honest, some of my favorite photos are unintentional photographs, snapshots, but those photos, those snapshots they have, they, they have meaning to me. They have meaning to me, but almost nobody else would care about those photos. Right? Maybe it's the people in the photo, you know, different time. But if it's the people have like my family, you know, when I was growing up, I vividly remember a time where we're having like a small family reunion at my and my great Grandma's house. So we went and at one point, you know, like a lot of family gatherings do, they pull out an old shoe box of photos and there's no organization to these photos.

Raymond: 10:06 They're just kind of everywhere. There's, there's a date only printed on some, and that date was put on by the by the developer, by the film developer when they would go to get the film developed and then they would create prints. A, the date was marked in the back, but that date was marked on the back from when the photo was developed. So who knows if that was really when the photo was taken. You know, if they just left film sitting in the camera for awhile. But the point is, is that these photos you could tell, you know, hadn't had, had no preparation. People would just go and like, oh, people are getting together. I'm just gonna take some photos. Because like, we have this camera and that is that those photos wouldn't mean anything to you. That wouldn't mean anything to you.

Raymond: 10:49 But to me they were a window into my, my great grandmother's life, right. Seeing her as a, as a young adult, right. And imagining what her life must have been like through a photograph of, you know, just her and some friends getting together later in life, you know, so these snapshots are, are meaningful to me and to nobody else. So that is why to me, snapshots aren't all bad. They're not all bad, but it's, it's that line. Like I said earlier of when I went out with my brand new still camera to take photos, I thought that I was taking photographs because of the camera itself and not because of the decisions that were going into the photograph that was taken. So the majority of you, I would say are still taking snapshots without knowing it. And that is a problem just like me, just like how I shared there in the beginning, because the snapshot is a snapshot is, is the moment.

Raymond: 11:54 It's in the moment. It is completely unintentional and you could say that it's simply a document. That's it. It proved that something happened at some time, whereas a photograph is planned, no matter how much it was planned or how little it was planned, there was some planning that went into it and it was planned with artistic intention. So

let's discuss right now how you can stop taking snapshots and start taking photographs. Now the first step to taking less snapshots is to ask yourself, and this was the problem that I had, is to ask yourself why you want to take a photo. As I mentioned earlier, in my example, I went out and I just started shooting just to shoot, just to shoot thinking, Oh man, I'm taking some great photographs here. This is incredible. Like because I'm here and I have this camera in my hand so I'm taking photographs.

Raymond: 12:57 This is great just snapping away. But I wasn't asking myself why I wanted to take the photos that I was taking and we've all entered into a situation where either something happens or we see something and say, Oh hey, I'm going to take a photo. But if you first ask yourself why you want to take a photo right now, you can then make decisions to help you take a better photo. Let me give you an example. If you are out, say you know a park or something public place and you see two people having an interaction, maybe you know you kind of come up with a story in your head. They haven't seen each other in a long time and they're just really connecting with each other and you want to take a photo right of that. Ask yourself why do you want to take that photo?

Raymond: 13:49 You want to take the photo because two people are having such a powerful interaction with each other. So that means that you will want to fill the frame with those two people. Don't make it so wide that you see like you know other kids running around and like you know somebody sleeping on a bench in the background. You want to fill the frame with what you want to have, the story that you want to tell. And in this case the people interacting with each other. So now that brings up a new question. If you know that you want to fill in the fill the frame with these people, do you a want to get closer or do you be wanting to zoom in?

Raymond: 14:27 Each of those things will make a different impact on the photo. Neither one is right. I can't tell you that neither one is right. If you decide to get closer, that's where I decision. If you decide to zoom in and that's also the right decision, but each one of those decisions, decisions that you make will make a different impact on the photo itself. But say that you are out and you see a beautiful full of flowers, just very colorful and vibrant, you want to take a photo of that. So how do you take a photo of that? What is it that you want to take a photo off? Is it the colors? Is it a, the, the, the, the flower or you know, whatever it is that is growing itself? Is that just that it goes on forever, you know? Do you now, do you get lower with your camera and get like on on the flowers eye level, you know like do get on its level or do you get higher with the camera and just try to fill the frame with this color?

Raymond: 15:25 But regardless, you have to ask yourself, you know, what is it that you're trying to take a picture of? What is it that you want to highlight? Why do you want to take this photo? So first you pre-visualize your photo and then you put your camera to your eye. One of the worst things that you could do is walk into a situation with you, with the camera to your eye. And I struggle with this at weddings because you inherently, you know, are walking into new situations all the time. Lots of new people, lots of emotion, and you already have the camera to your eye. But if you, if you walk into a place and you think like, wow, this is beautiful, and you ask yourself, well, what is it that's beautiful here? And then you can pre- visualize the photo that you want to take. Then when you put the camera to your eye, you're not just going to snap a photo.

Raymond: 16:11 Because while I'm here in, in, in, in, I like this. Let me take a photo. If you figure out what it is that you like, and then you put the camera to your eye, you're already gonna know, you're gonna say, Oh, I've got to zoom in. I want a shallow depth of field. I'm going to go with a 2.8 . It's kind of, it's kind of dim outside. There's not a lot of light. I'm gonna Choose ISO 800 and now let's snap away, right? When you figure out that framing, you're going to be good, because now you're doing it with artistic intention. When you pre

visualize how your photo will turn out so that you can do without a a, you know, with, without a, without a still camera, you can do that with just your cell phone. And this next tip you can also do with just your cell phone and then is turn on the framing grid.

Raymond: 16:58 So if you're on an iPhone, you can actually do this in your settings. I don't even know where my phone is right now. So I can't show you, but you can turn the framing grid on in. You're on your, just on your cell phone camera, right? And the grid is just like a, it looks like a tic Tac toe board over the frame of your photo, which is the rule of thirds. So if you don't know what the rule of thirds is once again, imagine looking at a photo with a tic Tac toe board laid over it and where the lines intersect is where your eye naturally finds pleasing to want to go to. So if you put your subject in one of those four locations, I'm already, you're going to have any more interesting photo. So if you turn that on on your cell phone it is going to get you in the mindset to look for better compositions wherever you are.

Raymond: 17:52 And when you're on the lookout, you're looking with artistic intention. So this is a small change. It is a small change. And once again, you don't need the fanciest camera in the world. Literally any iPhone since like the iPhone three, I guess I found three g I suppose like you could turn this on, maybe even the first iPhone, maybe even the first iPhone. I'm not, I'm not positive. Don't quote me on that. But if you're still rocking the first iPhone, maybe sound upgrade. All right, so that is, that's the second thing that you can do is turn on the framing grid so that you can get yourself in that mindset to always be on the lookout for better compositions so that you can start looking with artistic intention. So next this one does require a camera with manual controls, but it's just simply choosing your aperture that you want depending on the depth of field that you're looking for in a photo.

Raymond: 18:45 Now this goes back to a pre visualizing your photo. And if you are absolutely brand new to photography, that may have sounded more confusing than it needed to be. So I apologize. But the, the aperture dictates how much you want a in focus and out of focus. Now by thinking about how you want your finished product to turn out, you are pre visualizing and then setting your aperture to match the pre-visualize photo in your head. You are, once again creating artistic intention. One of my favorite cameras, it's becoming less and less favorite every day as it gets a, as it's showing its age, but as the Fujifilm x 70, I love this camera. I love it so much. On the front of the camera it has an amateur ring. So if you're looking on youtube, I can change the aperture to whatever I want right there on the front of the ring.

Raymond: 19:46 So before I even turn on the camera, I can look ahead. I can say, Oh look, my kids are playing right now. We're out at the the fair or whatever. You know what? I don't need to shoot at f two, eight. They're moving around quite a bit. I could use a little bit more depth of field. I'm going to choose an f four and then I turn on my camera, right pre visualizing. Once again, how much you want in focus is simply setting that artistic intention. And that's a, a, that's a tip that you can use. Another thing that you could do also doesn't require you to have a, a expensive still camera you can use with just your cell phone, but it is simply getting lower to the ground to make a stronger eye connection with a child or a pet. Kids and pets have to be two of the most photographed subjects ever shared on the Internet.

Raymond: 20:34 So what do they have in common? Well, they are much lower to the ground than we are unless you're a horse as a pet or a draft, in which case it is a, it's the opposite. But instead of standing over them over a child or a door, a, I don't know, traditional pet, like a dog or a cat, instead of standing over them and pointing the camera down, take a knee, get on their level. This is going to build interest in your photo because you know what? Adults who look at photos from the eye level of a kid, don't see kids at eye level every single day. They see kids from a height of five, seven looking down. So if you take a photo at, you know, five, seven, looking down, your photo isn't, it's not an interesting, it's not, it's, it's not

going to stand out immediately. If you get down on their level and you take a photo right away by looking at that shot, anybody will stop even if it's just for a moment and take a closer look at the photo. And this will build interest in your photo. And an interesting photo has an audience, an interesting photo gets talked about.

Raymond: 21:49 Next, you can choose a longer focal length to remove distracting elements from your frame. So once again, this is more of a, a, a still camera and not a cell phone. However, now cell phones do have multiple focal lengths. We'll just stick with the, you know, DSLR example here and being able to zoom in. So choosing a long goal longer focal length means that you it can be useful for more than just getting closer to your subject, right? Most people think, Oh, if I'm going to zoom in, that means that I can get closer to my subject when I'm far away. And while that's true, it can also be used to remove distracting elements in the background of your photo.

Speaker 4: 22:37 Okay.

Raymond: 22:38 So sometimes with a wider lens, it is hard to block things out. Like I said in that example earlier of a two people having an interaction in a park, if you're using a wide lens, you're capturing a lot of the scene around you. Maybe that's some trash on the ground, maybe that is a you know, a broken down car. Maybe it's things that you don't want in the frame itself or maybe it's a, you know, it's an expensive Ferrari, something that's going to distract you from, from the story that you are trying to tell. If you use the longer, longer focal length, not only will you be able to get closer, but you can also frame out a lot of distracting elements. So when you do that, when you're trying to block out things to that, so so that, so that you focus on what it is that you want the viewer to focus on. That is artistic intention.

Raymond: 23:29 These are artistic intentions that will turn your snapshots into photography. So let's go over them just one more time. The first one is ask yourself why you want to take a photo so that you can pre visualize the photo and then make decisions to make a your photo turn out. The way that you want to. Next is turn on the framing grid on your cell phone so that every time you go to take a photo you will be more in the headspace of looking for good compositions everywhere. Number three is choosing the right aperture depending on the depth of field that you want. If you once again pre-visualize your photo and ask yourself how much depth of field do you want? And then you make that change. You are making that artistic intention for the outcome or for the final photo then is getting lower to the ground and make stronger a eye contact with a child or a pet. It's just different. It is different way of framing to create more visual interest. And lastly, choosing a longer focal length to remove distracting elements from your frame. That's it. That one doesn't need an explanation. So then you go,

Raymond: 24:40 Those are artistic intentions that will turn your snapshots into photographs and very easy ways to do so and can be done with even just the, you know, the, the, the most entry level camera on the market. Now I know that it may seem like I'm giving snapshots a hard time, right? That, that snapshots are just the worst. But snapshots aren't the worst. Snapshots sometimes are just, they're just fine. In fact, I still take them, but again, I take them knowing what a snapshot is. It is a document. So when do I take snapshots? I take snapshots of, you know, my, my receipts so that I can keep them long term. I take snapshots when I'm at the store and don't know which one of two products to buy. So I just snapshot it and send it to the wife and let her make the call.

Raymond: 25:37 When I'm doing home projects and need photos for reference so that I, you know, don't go to the store to buy stuff and I'm just totally lost. Like wait, how far apart where those two things are? You know, how many plants do I need? I just take a snapshot. If you're doing work in the front of the house, I'd just take a snapshot of the Front of the house so that when we go to the store, I know, you know what for these things are not

going to fit there. Now I know that I could probably just take a tape measure, but a I like, I've been doing it for awhile now I'm just going to stick with this method. But now I want to talk about one reason or I guess one time where people think that it's okay to take a snapshot and it is definitely not okay to take a snapshot and that is when you're out somewhere, you're at a, you know, an amusement park with a family or or a restaurant or something and somebody asks you to take a photo like of them and their friends or whatever and then they hand you their camera.

Raymond: 26:35 Most people, myself included for a long time were just like, oh yeah, of course. Hold up. This is an iPad because I once again don't know where my phone is, but they would just hold it up and they'd take the photo and say, here you go, and then just go on with their day. But you are a photographer. I don't care if you, if today is the first day that you have ever picked up a camera, if you have a camera in your hand, you are a photographer. Even if you're not a race car driver, if you are behind the wheel of a car, you are a driver. Same thing with photography. If you are holding a camera, you are a photographer and you have a duty to make that photo the best that it can be within reason, obviously.

Speaker 6: 27:27 Okay.

Raymond: 27:28 If somebody hands you their phone to take a photo of them, it means that they want to remember that moment. They want to remember the people that they're with, they want to remember where they are. So help them out. You can help them take a second say, oh yeah, of course. Sure. Take a second. Look around, look for good light. You know, if they're like facing the sun and they're like, they're all squinting and stuff, like just trying to smile, that's not going to be a great photo. Turn them around and they just move yourself so that you can take a photo with the sun to their back so that they have brighter eyes, they're happier, they, you know, you can see their faces better. Or look for an interesting background, right? If people are, are, you know, out and they're standing somewhere and you look in the background and you're like, oh my gosh, there's no broken end car and some trash, you know, whatever.

Raymond: 28:20 I'm just going to keep using that example. Then just have them move to something better. Maybe you see a tree like 10 steps to the left, like, oh great, let's just, I'll get you guys right here in front of this tree. A lot of times you can get better backgrounds without having them move at all, but just you kind of circle around to them. So if you take a few steps, it's a whole lot easier to get a better background than having them move somewhere completely different. And I know what you're thinking. Like I'm, these people just handed me their phone. They don't want me to like go on a photo session with them. That, first of all, I'm not talking about spending like 15 minutes here trying to get like the best photo, having somebody come out with a, with a sheet to diffuse the light.

Raymond: 29:00 I'm talking about just turning directions, right? Rotating your body, rotating them. You know, just changing the background and that is it. And the truth is people want to be told what to do. I know it sounds crazy and you're thinking like, no, I don't. Yes you do. When you have a camera in your hand, tell them what to do. Even if it's just with the cell phone. People want to look good in photos. That's it. They do. Nobody. Nobody's ever like, Oh man, I took a good photo of me. There was like, Nah, man, I got a bad photo of me. If you can do your best to take a good photo of somebody, they will be more than happy to take an additional 10 seconds to rotate their body so that you get a great photo of the background or a sign or put them in some good light.

Raymond: 29:54 People want to be told what to do and when you're behind the camera that, I mean, I've only found that to be true in my life. And the more that you get into that head space of being intentional with your photographs, the faster you're, you will improve

your skills, I promise you. The faster these things will become second nature to you. I promise you, and the faster you will be taking photos that you are proud to share, I promise you, being a good photographer is not always about having the newest camera or most expensive lens or being in the most exotic location or having the most beautiful subjects. It all starts from having a solid understanding of the fundamentals of photography. That is how you will stop taking snapshots and start taking photographs. No. All right. There you go. They have it. That's it. That is it for this week. So until next week, I want you to get outside. It's nice outside. Trust me. Get outside, go out and shoot. Shoot with intention, artistic intention, focus on yourself and stay safe. All right. I love you all.

Outro: 31:26 If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.

BPP 147: Stop Taking Snapshots and Start Taking Photographs

Automated transcription by temi.com

BPP 146: What You Can't Do in Auto

The sad truth is, a camera is just a computer that does not know what it’s photographing or how you want to photography a scene. So when left in Auto mode a camera will just make average decisions and will strip you of all creative intention.

I willing to bet you did not invest in a camera to just take average photos that do not stand out. I am guessing you want to take photos that are both unique and valuable to you and the viewer.

So today I share what you can’t do in Auto mode to help give you the push to shooting in Manual.

Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

Full Episode Transcription:

Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.

Raymond: 00:00 Hey Raymond here from the beginner photography podcast. And today I'm going to share with you what you can't shoot while shooting in auto mode. So let's get into it.

intro: 00:10 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfield, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raman interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now with you as always, husband, father, home brewer, La Dodger Fan and Indianapolis wedding photographer, Raymond Hatfield. Oh, welcome

Raymond: 00:40 Back to this episode of the beginner photography podcast. As always, I am Raymond Hatfield, Indianapolis wedding photographer and a your host for today. Today we are continuing continuing on this little series that I have of kind of taking control of your camera. I've realized that as as the podcast has grown, I've there's been plenty of new listeners and if that's you welcome. Thank you for joining that maybe haven't taken the time to go back and listen to some of the older episodes where I talk about just kind of like the fundamentals of photography where I share that, you know, real world examples of how the gear matters less than the photographer itself. So I'm just kind of putting all this out here, new updated information for 2019, because let's face it, information is, is, is always changing. And the, well, I've been doing this long enough to now I think that I put it in a pretty concise list so that'll be clear to you.

Raymond: 01:41 So I'm excited to get into this. But first I want to give a shout out. Today we are giving a shout out for a another iTunes review and this week it comes from none other than our group's own. Kimberly Irish Kimberly gave a five star review to the podcast in iTunes, which I cannot tell you how thankful for that I am. So Kimberly says, I've been learning so much from all of the guests. I love that Raymond asks questions that really push the guests to go back to the time when they were just starting out or get them back into the mindset of a beginner. As a beginner myself. It is so helpful and encouraging to hear the beginning stories from all of these amazing photographers. Thank you so much to Raymond and the guest, Kimberly. Thank you for that. For that review.

Raymond: 02:33 That was a really enjoyable review to hear. It was great to hear that you've, you've kind of taken that that I do try to push the guests to, to go back to the beginning. There's always that w with almost any interview that you hear online, it's like, hey, you know, somebody who's a, a prolific or has made a predominant spot in their industry. He was like, how'd you get started? Oh, well one day, you know, I, I started doing this one thing

and then one thing led to another and here I am. And you're like, no, what is that one thing that led to another? Like tell me what that is. That is what I want to know more of. How did you get to that? Cause there's plenty of people who, who started in that same spot and didn't end up where you are.

Raymond: 03:13 So I really do try to push my guests and I'm so glad that you are picking up a lot from the group. So Kimberly, I know that we've chatted on Facebook plenty of times, but I just wanted to publicly say thank you so much for not only leaving an amazing review, but being a contributing member of the beginner photography podcast Facebook group. So thank you. If you are listening I can't tell you how much it would mean to me if you were to leave the podcast a review as well here in iTunes. Right now we're stuck at 75 reviews and I am, I'm on a mission. I'm going to hit a hundred. Let's see, let's, let's make this hard. And I'm going for 100 reviews. It is May, June, July. We're going to do this by mid month, the end of July. By the end of July, I want to go for 100 reviews.

Raymond: 03:59 So will you help the podcast get to a hundred reviews? We only need 25. That's not 25 people out there listening and left a review today. We would make that goal. It doesn't have to be, you know, you don't even have to type anything out. You can just leave a star rating if you want it to. But the truth is ratings and reviews truly means so much to the podcast. A, I don't have ads on this podcast. I don't go over the top like many other podcasts. It's just me here. And and I'm talking to you, that's all that this is. And if you were to leave a rating and review, that would let me know that you're listening and that I'm not just talking to empty airwaves and can just turn this microphone off and spend the rest of my time focused on photography.

Raymond: 04:43 So once again, your favorite podcast player, if you could just leave a quick rating and review, I cannot tell you how eternally grateful I would be to you. Okay, so let's get into it. Let's get into today's episode of the podcast. What you can't do in Otto, what you can't do in auto. What does that mean? Well, let me start off by asking you a question. I want you to tell me why did you buy your camera? Seriously? Why? What was the reason? Why did you buy your camera? Was it because you just had some extra money in your pocket when you were at the store and thought, Oh yeah, here we go. What the, Hey, I'll just go ahead and pick up one of these cameras and see what happens. Was it because you needed a, a, a pretty little talking piece for your next dinner party?

Raymond: 05:42 I doubt it. I doubt that that is why you bought a camera. A camera. A DSLR is a bit of an investment. It's not just an impulse buy for a lot of people. And when you've been looking at beautiful photos your whole life, you look at these cameras and the camera itself is the gatekeeper. Now the gate seems to be coming closer and closer and more open, I guess, to us by way of using you know cell phone technology. And there's no doubt that you can get an amazing photo by using your cell phone. But what was it inside of you that made you purchase invest in a DSLR camera? Again, I'm guessing that it wasn't just because you had the extra money laying around and thought whatever, or because you needed something to talk about at your next dinner party. If I had to guess, I would say that you spent your money on a camera because you wanted to create something unique and something valuable.

Raymond: 06:47 Photographs become more and more valuable with every passing day. Right? I can't, you know, it makes sense that you would want to capture your life then you would want to capture your family or the things that are important to you now and every time I personally get one of those, you know, one year ago today, updates on Facebook, I look at it and I cannot believe like till this day I've been shooting for more than a decade and I cannot believe how powerful a photo can be. Every time I see a photo, I can get transported right back to that moment. Right back to that moment. And I look at and think no way was that one full

year ago today. And that photo that I'm looking at was taken with a phone, just a just a cell phone, just my cell phone, my, my iPhone five s e you know, 50 year old cell phone right here.

Raymond: 07:45 Might as well be 50 years old. This thing is shown sage. But we all know and want to to create something unique and everyday life experiences that we go through changes, our view, changes the way that we see the world. And that is why you can have a hundred different photographers taking a photo of the exact same thing. And every single photo will be different because we all see the world just a little bit differently. And, and no matter where you started and where you are now, even if somebody else, even if your neighbor, you know started same time that you did and you're now at equal spots, I'd say in learning photography, your life experiences are the only thing that separate you as human beings. So therefore you see what you see through the camera entirely different than they do.

Raymond: 08:47 But you, you want your photos to stand out, you want to make somebody stop and say, wow, look at that photo. That is what you want out of a, out of a, out of a camera right out of whatever camera that it is. But somewhere along the way you have a cell phone and you're taking good photos that you like and that you enjoy and you think to yourself, even though I liked these photos, if I can just get a better camera, I can start taking better photos or I can take, I can have better control of my photos and that is what is going to set me apart and I will be able to create photos that tell my, you know, that share my, my view of the world and make people stop and say, wow, just like so many other photographers have been able to accomplish.

Raymond: 09:39 Am I right? Is that a little bit closer to why you bought your camera? Because I would bet that it is yet so many people when they buy their camera right, they get the box, they bring home, they go to the store before that they think about it. They do all this research like, oh, which, which cameras the best camera to buy for under, you know, 500 bucks or something like that. Like, oh, this is the one they choose the one they go to the store. They point to it, the guy behind the counter gets the keys, they unlock it, they pull the box out, they hand it to you, you go to the register, you swipe your Carter and you insert your chip or you do both. And then you have to do the other thing. Cause that's always a mess. And then the hand you receipt and they say you are free to leave the store with that box.

Raymond: 10:23 You can leave right now taken home with you and the world is yours and you get so excited. You get so, so, so, so excited. This, this seemingly infinite possibilities, right? And you go home and you are used to your cell phone where what you do is you press the camera button, it pulls up a a, you know, a digital image and you say, Yep, that's what I like. And then you press a button and you are done. So what do you do with this new fancy camera that you got? Well you get home, you rip it out and about, you don't rip it out of the box. You carefully open up the box and you know, you get excited, you pull it out of that weird plastic, but the paper stuff, you take it out of there and you set the dial to the green button to automatic mode and then you pull up the camera and now all that you have to do is just press a button and now your photos are there.

Raymond: 11:16 Your photos are there. So, so many people who invest in, in an, in, in a higher caliber of camera than just their cell phone still shoot their photos in auto mode. And again, maybe it's because it's easier. Maybe it's because you're intimidated by shooting manual. Maybe you tried manual, you switched it to that M Dial once you know, once and you just, all your photos were black or all your photos were white or the camera wouldn't focus or something. And you thought, what is going on here? Whatever the reason I want to, you gotta know how a camera, let's think about what a camera is, right? You think about a camera as this tool that you know has a fancy lens and and light comes in it and a mirror pops up and then it exposes the sensor and then that is the photo that you get.

Raymond: 12:11 Right. But a camera is not, is an entirely different thing than cameras of the past than film cameras. They're an entirely different thing. It can be that you buy today is a computer, it has processors inside, it is making decisions, it is a computer. And the fact is is that that computer has no idea, no idea what it is that you are photographing and more importantly how you want to photograph it. So when you take your fancy camera out of the box and you start taking photos and you leave it in auto, your camera makes average decisions, which is fine, which is totally fine if you want average photos, if you just want a pure documentation, this thing happened, this is how it happened, this is what it looked like. Good day then that is fine. Average photos are fine to shoot in in Otto, but, but I, I am taking a wild guess here and assuming that if you are listening to this podcast right now, if you are listening to the beginner photography podcast right now, you don't want average photos today.

Raymond: 13:50 Let's talk about what you can't do in auto because if you just want, if you just want to leave your camera in auto, you're going to take average photos. There's no reason for you to be here right now, right? There's no, there's, there's no reason for you to be here right now. If you just want those average photos, this podcast is for those who want to better themselves, better their understanding of photography so that they can take better photos to better tell their story through their photographs. And if you just want to keep it in auto, that's fine. You can find another podcast to listen to because this is not the one for you right now. We're going to talk about what you cannot do in auto. So let me ask you a question. Have you ever taken a photo and it was too bright or have you ever taken a photo and it was too dark?

Raymond: 14:41 Maybe you're at the beach or something like that. Maybe it's kind of like later at night you're out there like a restaurant or something and you'd think to yourself, why, why would the camera make this dark scene like too bright? Like it's like things are moving around. It's like there's motion blur. Why would the camera decide this? Well, let's talk about that. A camera will determine what is a good exposure exposure being how, how bright the photo is. If it is too bright, it is over exposed. If a photo is too dark, it is underexposed. So a camera will determine what is a good exposure by trying to make the overall tone of the image gray. Why Gray? Because gray is the middle ground between black and white. If something is gray, it is not too dark. If something is gray, it is not too white.

Raymond: 15:39 Gray is what? Your camera will try to make an exposure. But let me ask you a question. Wow. I'm just like, I keep saying that. What if you are photographing something dark, something black, like a Tux or something dark like the night sky in auto mode, your camera will screw it up. Your camera does not want to take photos of dark things. Your camera will think once again, your camera has no idea what it is that you are photographing and therefore it'll just see, oh no, something's dark in the frame. We need to brighten it up to bring it to a gray because that's average. And if we bring up a a black Tux to gray, that text doesn't look good anymore. If we bring up that black Tux to gray, what is it gonna do to the skin tones? It's going to, if somebody is has a more pale skin tone is just going to blow out their skin, they're just going to look like a ghost is wearing a gray tucks.

Raymond: 16:38 It is not gonna make any sense, but your camera will think that that is the right decision because from a scientific standpoint, that is, that is right where it needs to be right in the middle of the road. Not Great, right in the middle, right in the middle of the road. Now what if you are photographing something that is white? You know what sorts of things are white wedding dresses? You know what else is very bright like a day at the beach or snow? They had to be let. Let's not even talk about the wedding dress right now. Let's just talk about the day at the beach or the snow. Why are you at the beach? Why are you with this? Now there's a very good chance that if you're taking photos in the snow or at the beach, you're probably hanging out with family, with friends.

Raymond: 17:26 You're having a good time. You're not out there just to document the exposure of those areas you are trying to create like already. You're inherently trying to take photos that help you capture that memory if you're at the beach or if you're in the snow, right? Otherwise, why would you just go on the snow for for no reason. You're in the snow because you're hanging out with kids and letting them play around, you know, whatever it is. Or you're snowboarding with friends, whatever it is in auto mode, your camera, we'll screw that up. Once again, I'm not going to sugar coat it. Your camera will screw that up. Why? Why will your camera screw that up? Because your camera thinks that white means that it's too bright. It is too bright and there's too much light coming in this lens. Therefore we have to control the rest of the settings and make the photo gray.

Raymond: 18:19 Who wants grey snow? I don't want grey snow. Nobody wants grey snow. That, that doesn't even make any sense. You're never going to look at the photo of grey snow and be like, Oh wow, I want to be there. No, you want to look at like, you know, bright, you know, fresh, fluffy, pure, white snow. And once again, your camera will think it just doesn't know. That's the problem. That is the problem with auto mode is that your camera does not know what you are shooting and therefore in auto mode your camera will screw it up. The photo will be underexposed. So therefore if you have somebody in your frame, right, you go to the beach. I'm sure if, if you've ever been to the beach and tried to like bring out your camera and take photos in some sort of automatic mode, I guarantee that this has happened to you.

Raymond: 19:09 The beach, the sand, very bright. The water reflecting off the sun, very bright. The Sky, very bright. If you have a friend out there or a family member and they're like walking towards you, they according to the camera are going to be very, very dark. So when you go to take a picture, it is going to try to take the bright sand, the bright water, the bright sky, and bring down the exposure, which already has your friend or your family member who's already, you know, doesn't have the same amount of luminance, the the that, the sand water the sky has and it's going to make them even darker. So now they're just just pure darkness. They are pure darkness, but your water looks pretty good. This guy looks pretty good. Maybe the sand looks all right, but nothing like nothing else even. It's still going to be such an underexposed photo because your camera does not know what it is photographing.

Raymond: 19:59 And on top of that, let's just say that you are trying to photograph a dog scene. Maybe you're out, it's a beautiful night, right? You see the moon or some stars or even if you know it's like you're out camping or something and it's dark. So you want to take a photo so you know your camera's still not on mode. You're going to take that photo. And the first thing that your camera is going to do is papa bell, little tiny weak flash. And if you're out and you're photographing the stars, let me tell you something that week, little dinky flash from your camera will not aluminate the night sky. It will not work. The camera has no idea. Once again, what it is photographic. All that it sees is scientifically, this photo is very, very, very dark and we can't bring the shutter speed low enough to make it gray or properly exposed.

Raymond: 20:49 So therefore we have to use the flash and it is going to go off for power. And you know what? It's going to duty a photo, nothing. It is not going to change your photo at all. And that is just an example of how your camera has no idea what it's looking at. That's it, right? Come on. So in auto, essentially what I'm trying to say here is that a it camera, a camera that left an auto will strip you of any artistic intentions. What is the job of a tool, right? What's the job of a hammer? If you are an artist and you have a range of tools, right? You need a wrench, but all you have is a hammer. Like you're getting like, oh, okay, I just Kinda came up with this year on the spot. So, so this may not make sense. So bear with me here.

Raymond: 21:47 What if you're an artist, right? You like do like some woodworking or some carving or something and you show up and you see an entire desk write this entire

beautiful like clean workshop and all that there is is one hammer. You're going to look at that hammer and think to yourself either one or two things you're going to say, okay, well let's see what we can do. Or you're going to know, or I probably, and it's not one of two things and you're going to know right away that you don't have enough tools at your disposal to be able to create what it is that you want to create. But you do have the one tool, right? You have the one tool and you can try your best, but at the end of the day there are so many things that you cannot do with the Hammer, which is why we have other tools that you will not be able to complete whatever it is that your artistic intention is for that sculpture.

Raymond: 22:39 I'm pretty proud of that. A little example right there, I kind of surprised myself. That was, that was a good one. So in auto, your camera is just a hammer. That's it. Once again, it will just strip you of any artistic intentions, take away all of the tools that you have. So here are the three types of shots that you can get in manual easier than you can in auto. Number one silhouettes. We all know a beautiful silhouette silhouette is you have a scene. It is a evenly lit or a part of the scene that is evenly let. And within that part that is evenly lit. There is a, a, an outline, a silhouette of a figure that, you know, figure could be a person or it could be a, you know, a hood ornament or whatever. It can be anything. You can make a silhouette of anything.

Raymond: 23:35 But let's just assume that we're talking about people here. Okay. So the camera will simply, okay to have a, have a silhouette, that person or the subject that is going to be the silhouette is, has to be under exposed. They have to be, you know, very underexposed for them to be a complete outline. Right. And when, when you're Ken, what do we just talk about? When your camera see something underexposed, it doesn't like that. It doesn't like that. So in this situation, your camera would either slow down the shutter speed to bring in more light and then everything is exposed and you no longer have a silhouette or it would want to pop up that flash. And then once again, you would not have a silhouette. You just can't get it. You cannot get a silhouette in auto. No. Okay. I take that back.

Raymond: 24:29 You might be able to accidentally get a silhouette and auto but you cannot predictably and with intention get a silhouette. There are plenty of times on a wedding day where you walk in to a room and maybe there's one just like really bright, especially in churches like a bright light stained glass window or just like a regular window that's letting in a lot of light compared to the the rest of the room itself and there's so many times where you can get a great silhouette in that spot or you can even create a silhouette with a, with an off camera flash, placing it behind your subject so many times you can do that in an auto. It wouldn't do that. It would just brighten up the scene as if you were simply trying to document what this space look like. So that was number one, a silhouette.

Raymond: 25:16 You cannot predictably and reliably capture silhouettes in auto mode. Number two and number three is what we already talked about. You can not get beach photos and snow photos. You cannot get good beach photos and good snow photos. You cannot get good wedding photos in front of a glass where there's, you know, high contrast, you camera will not want to do it. These are situations where the photos technically have to be overexposed. Sometimes it's by a good amount. Sometimes these photos have to be overexposed by more than a stop, stop and a half and your camera will not do that for you. It will not in auto mode overexpose a photo that much. Now you may be able to go to the beach and take some photos, you know that are, that are good enough. Maybe photos that you even like like, but I guarantee you that the eyes that you're looking at those photos with right now are not the eyes that you will be looking at the photo with.

Raymond: 26:18 Once you learn how to shoot in manual and know how to control that light in those types of photos, your, you're pretty much looking for the moment, right? You're looking for a good expression and something cool that you know, the kids built or

something. But that's about it, right? It's not an artistically great photo. And that of course brings us to number three photos in dark conditions like indoors or of stars. One of the, one of the coolest things about digital photography is how easy it is to go out and photograph stars or photograph the Milky Way. And you simply cannot do that shooting an auto because the camera will see an underexposed image and because it has no idea what it's photographing, we'll assume that you are in a very dark, you know, place and therefore it just needs to brighten it up by either lowering your shutter speed, raising up your ISO or introducing flash and it just doesn't work for stars.

Raymond: 27:13 You cannot do it or even indoors. Right. Let's, let's take stars out of the equation here. When you're indoors light, okay. Have you ever walked into a a room and you're like, wow, you know, this is like we're having a good party. Like this isn't bad here and you go to take a picture of it and the photo is just like too blurry or, or the colors are all crazy. That is because our eyes are incredible things. We can see in very low light conditions unlike our cameras, right? So, but camera when left an auto will once again just try to document the room that you were in and not let you, and we'll try to force the flash so that it can have a higher shutter speed to freeze the motion. But when left and manual, you can just raise up your ISO because a lot of times the light, even though there's less of it, is pretty good quality light and maybe you want a higher ISO so that you don't have to use a flash, but your camera is never going to make that decision.

Raymond: 28:15 Simply put, the world is not always properly exposed, but your camera when left an auto wants to shoot like it is. And as a photographer you need to know how to confidently take great photos in any light. I know that that may seem difficult right now. That may seem like a bit of a stretch, but if you want to be a working photographer, if you want to be a competent photographer, that is your job. You need to learn how to confidently take great photos in any light. And Arno will not only make it impossible to achieve a specific photo that you want, but therefore will create more work for you in editing to fix something that could easily just be adjusted in camera.

Raymond: 29:09 So for all of these reasons, I cannot stress how important it is to know how to shoot in manual. And this is why I've spent my entire winter creating my upcoming course called auto to amazing, which I created to just remove the confusion of shooting manual to remove the confusion of what setting do I change, to remove the confusion behind what goes into taking a unique and valuable photo. The Beta course is going to open up at the end of this month, may it's only going to be open to 50 students of we'll also get some pretty exciting perks. So I'm excited for that. And my favorite part about the course is that I hired a videographer to actually follow me around while shooting. So I can show you how I shoot and I talked through my decisions that I'm making while get this, I'm using an entry level canon t five an entry level camera that came out when the iPhone five s came out and that you can now buy online used for under 250 bucks.

Raymond: 30:09 Now I know that there are other modes more than just manual, right? Like aperture priority that is a favorite of new photographers and that using aperture priority can get you some incredible results because you are, you are gaining some control of the camera while still letting the camera make some other decisions. But it kinda comes down to what it is that you are shooting, right? If you just want to shoot in aperture priority because it's not as scary as manual, then the decision that you made to shoot an aperture priority is out of pure laziness, right? If you shoot in average a priority because it works best for what it is that you're shooting, well then you have to pick the right tool for the job. That's fine. You know, shooting in a studio is a whole lot easier to shoot an aperture priority than it is to shoot on a wedding day.

Raymond: 31:07 Because once again, the camera is going to make slight changes, slight, you know, differences in decisions. Then when you come in to edit the photo or you know several hundred photos, your job is going to be so much harder than if you just shot in manual and got consistent results the entire time. So let's wrap this up. Automotive, while it will give you properly eggs, most photos will strip away any ability for artistic intention. And when you cannot create the photo that you want because your camera will not let you, you will not be able to produce photos that are both creative, unique and valuable. That was three of them. You will not be able to produce photos that are unique and valuable. When you leave your camera in auto, you're simply creating snapshots.

Raymond: 32:14 Okay? Okay, well that, that's it. That's it for this week. That's what you can't do in auto. That is the power of, or I guess the, the, the removed power in auto. The, the power that is removed from you by shooting in auto. So I hope that you enjoyed this week's episode. Again, that is it for this week. Until next week, I want you to go out and I want you to shoot. I want you to shoot, shoot, shoot as much as you can. I want you to try something new. I want you to stay safe and I want you to focus on yourself. That was it until next week. Until then, love y'all.

Outro: 32:55 If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.

BPP 146: What You Can't Do in Auto

Automated transcription by temi.com

BPP 145: The 5 Mistakes New Photographers Make

Over the past 3 years of hosting the beginner photography podcast I have not only had the chance to talk to some of the worlds best photographers but also talk to countless listeners. Almost immediately I started get emails, questions. Then I started the Beginner Photography Podcast Facebook group 2 years ago and the number of questions of new photographers has exploded.

In that time I have come to see the 5 Mistakes New Photographers Make.

Today I share them with you and share how to avoid them.

1: New photographers think gear will make their photos better

2: New photographers do a lot of heavy editing

3: New photographers try to grow too quick without knowing the fundamentals

4: New photographers want to start to business before they are ready

5: New photographers do not give photography enough time

Become A Premium Member is access to more in-depth questions that help move you forward!

Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

Full Episode Transcript

Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.

Raymond: 00:00 Hey Raymond here from the beginning of photography podcast. And today I'm breaking down the five mistakes that all new photographers make. So let's get into it.

intro: 00:10 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfield, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raymond interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now with you as always, husband, father, Ho brewer, La Dodger Fan, an Indianapolis wedding photographer, Raymond Hatfield.

Raymond: 00:41 Hey, welcome back to this weekend. This episode of the beginner photography podcast. I'm excited to have you here today. This is going to be a great, a great episode. A, I don't know if a, if, if you've been following me along for a while. A few years ago I made a video of the five mistakes that all new wedding photographers make. And I put that on Youtube and it was a big hit. Big. It still continues to get a lot of views, but I realized that that video that I made was kind of a skewed for one re like one of the reasons is because I'm a wedding photographer and there was just the mistakes that I was seeing other photographers making, but I really didn't have a good sample size. Right. It has now been a close to three years. It's been more than three years. Wow. Since since doing this podcast.

Raymond: 01:31 And in that time I've learned a lot more from a lot of different types of photographers and I now have a new list of the five mistakes that new photographers make and I can't wait to share it with you. I really think that this is going to be an actionable episode that is going to help you learn what these mistakes are and then how to not do them. But first I want to give a shout out with an iTunes review. So we got an iTunes review that I want to share. It is from envy photo girl in d photograph. There's no name here. I don't know if you are, please tell me who you are. I want to thank you personally. She says as one who partakes in many forms of learning opportunities, social media, Facebook, iTunes, websites, et cetera.

Raymond: 02:15 I Find Raymond's beginner photography podcast to be the most well-rounded, informative and easy to understand. Presentation of everything. Photographic. His program subject ranges from technical to philosophical, but she can't be talking about me and he is always able to mediate the presented information into understandable, relevant terms that I can easily take an immediately apply to my photographic journey, consistently enthusiastic. This is fun, knowledgeable and supportive and truly cares about his listeners in the Facebook group. I've listened to many photography podcast and I find this one the best five stars. Jeez. Jeez. But still they going to go to my head. My wife's not going to be happy

today because that does a, I'm going to be, I'm going to be throwing that out there. So it'd be photo girl, man. Thank you so much for that review. That was a incredible review. If you could leave the review there, if you could leave their review.

Raymond: 03:15 If you haven't left a review for the podcast, I can't tell you how grateful I would be just to hear your stories of how the podcast has helped in any sort of way for you in learning photography. That just, that makes my day. It totally does. It totally makes my day. So you can do that in iTunes or wherever you listen to the podcast. So again, in the photo girl, thank you. Let me know who you are so I can, so I can personally thank you. You're in the Facebook group, so that's awesome. Okay, so let's get to these five mistakes that new photographers make. So like I said earlier, I let me turn off. I'm getting all these notifications on my computer. Okay. There we go. As I said earlier, I've been hosting the podcast now for three years.

Raymond: 04:03 The podcast has been in existence for three years, which still totally blows my mind. When I, when I think back to all of the incredible photographers who are so much better than me and being able to ask them these questions one-on-one the podcast has definitely been something that I have become very proud of and it's something that I truly enjoy. But I have found something interesting that even more than talking to these other photographers, it's interacting with you, the listeners, which is, is, is more fulfilling, more enjoy, not, it's, I mean, I guess it is more enjoyable, but it's, it's fulfilling to see firsthand what it is that you struggle with, right? The things that you want to know as a beginner because as a professional photographer, sometimes I forget the things that I didn't know early on. And being able to hear your side of the story is, is really cool.

Raymond: 04:58 So the podcast group has been around for almost two years and in that time I've gotten to know a lot of you meet some of you in person, which has been a joy. And I have received hundreds of emails from beginners asking questions. So I can tell you firsthand the biggest mistakes that I see new photographers making from, from the emails, from the a podcast group just from listening to your feedback or your questions. I have compiled this list. Okay. And this list is based off the things that I have either gone through or or experienced or what I've seen, right? And even information from podcast guests. So we are going to get into this, right? You know what? First I'm going to break down exactly what all five of those things are and then we'll, we'll go deeper.

Raymond: 05:53 So the first mistake that new photographers make is that they think that the gear will make their photos better. And if you've been listening to this podcast for any length of time, you'll know my views on that. It's completely false. But we'll get into that. Number two is the amount of heavy editing that is done. Number three, new photographers try to grow way too quick. Number four, new photographers want to start a business before they are ready. And number five, they don't give photography enough time. Okay? So let's break this down. Number one mistake that I see new photographers making is that they think that the gear will make their photos better. And I see this from comments like, you know, I only have whatever camera so, you know, don't be too harsh on these photos or I'm going on a trip soon.

Raymond: 06:55 So I really want to upgrade my camera so that I could take better photos. And when I think back to my journey when I first started, I felt the same way. So I completely understand where that mindset is coming from. Because when you see a professional, especially on youtube, you see professionals shoot with like a specific camera, a five d, a, a Nikon d eight 50, or something like that. It's easy to think that everything else must be inferior, right? All of these pros are shooting with this camera, these lenses, everything else just must be trash because their images are great. And my images, well, they're not. And the only difference between us, we're both people is the camera. So that is where that mindset

comes from. And while you are technically, you know, true that these other cameras are inferior, like they're better cameras, they're better cameras in less.

Raymond: 07:54 You have been shooting for decades, you really will not be able to tell the difference in your shooting. But your wallet will, I promise you that when it comes to gear, gear should be making your life easier and it will not make your photos better. That's it gear's job is to make your life easier. It's to make your job easier. There are better things but or low light, you know, great. Now it's easier. When it comes editing, I don't have to edit it so much because you know, I don't have to brighten up the the darks cause now I can shoot it right in camera. Right. I'm shooting at, you know, a wide aperture. Oh Great. Now I can, I can bring in more light. I can control the light better. I can have a better depth of field. I don't need, you know, the ND filter.

Raymond: 08:44 So these things make your life easier. They don't make your photos better. What makes the photos better is the photographer. So I am saying I'm going to make a bold statement right now. If you have been shooting for less than two years, like you got that camera two Christmases ago, you know if you have been shooting for less than two years, all that you need is an entry level camera which you can pick up at any big box store, right? The Lens that came with that camera and both Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Sony makes some version of this. A 50 millimeter, 1.8 lens or I think Sony uses an f two no, maybe that's Fujis listen, all you need is those three things. The camera, body, entry-level camera body, the Lens that came with your kit camera and a 50 millimeter 1.8 some sort of prime lens, the 50 millimeter 1.8 that is all that you need.

Raymond: 09:50 That is all that you need right now because your job right now is not to take this wide variety of photos. It is to learn what it is like, learn how to use this camera and learn what it is that you want to shoot. Because like I said, the gear will not make your photos better, but after those two years, so why only two years? After those two years you will know what it is that you want to shoot. You will know how you shoot and that will dictate what direction you need to go in terms of gear. If you are out shooting wildlife, you are going to want a camera that is weather sealed, but you don't know that in the beginning. Maybe you bought your camera to just photograph your kids and then you fell into newborns or a wildlife not newborns.

Raymond: 10:36 Nobody wants to fall on a newborn. That would be horrific. So my point is is that in the beginning you don't know what it is that you want to shoot. So you don't know what you need to prioritize in terms of gear. So in the beginning, start with the basics, entry level camera, the lens that came with the camera and a Prime Lens, a 50 millimeter, 1.8 that is it. That is all that you need. And then like a battery and a memory card of course. But every and maybe a bag. But that is it. Okay. Okay. Number two, heavy editing. New Photographers love to do some heavy editing. And when I, when I, when I see photographers like who are posting in the group who love they're heavy editing, what it seems like to me is that, is that the editing is trying to mask the lack of technical knowledge when it comes to the photo itself.

Raymond: 11:36 We have all seen incredible examples of photos that were made in Photoshop through editing, right? But I want to share this quote that has been with me for a long time and I think that it fits incredibly well in this situation. And it is when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If you know that an editing, you can boost your reds, suddenly all of your reds and your photos are going to look Pale and you're going to want to boost those up. You're going to want to use the tools that you have. It is so common to go overboard with editing just to try it out. And I get that right. You have so many new tools and you know, buttons that you want to play with. Do that. Like if you do that to figure out the editing tool itself of let's just say light room.

Raymond: 12:29 Okay. That's pretty much the industry standard. We'll, we'll continue with light room. So in light room, there's so many different options, so many different possibilities that you can do in your editing. You, you like your looking at these great photos that came out of light room or Photoshop and you think, I have this photo, I want to make it great. It goes through light broom. This has got to be it. So you keep playing with all the buttons and the dials and, and at some point you get somewhere where it looks nothing like the original photo, but you're so like deep into it, you're so focused that now it looks like a good photo to you. So this is not like meant to be mean by any means. Right? but when it comes to editing, I think that first you need to know the purpose of editing.

Raymond: 13:24 The purpose of editing is simply to put your signature on your photos, on your photos. You have to have a photo that you bring into editing and then you apply a signature to it. What is the first thing that we do in light room? We import the photos. What do we do before that? We take the photos. You need to understand how to take a photo properly, get it right in camera before bringing it into light room and trying to make it some masterpiece. Because if you bring a photo that is not properly exposed has some composition issues, you bring that in Lightroom, Lightroom can't fix the focus. It can't fix composition. It can definitely fix exposure and colors, but it can't fix other major parts of photography. So editing is just, it's incredibly important. It's incredibly important and it takes time to learn the tools that you've never had access to before.

Raymond: 14:25 But the photo is done when you're editing. When you say that it is, there's no right or wrong. When it comes to an edit, it is purely subjective. So when you are editing a photo, right, again, you need to bring in a photo into light room. That is a solid photo. You bring that into light room to put your on it. You don't bring a photo into light room to see how far you can take it, so the photo is done. When you say that it is, there's no finish line. It is just when you say that it's done, it's done purely subjective. Enjoy it. Okay. The number three thing, I guess number three on the list of mistakes that big that new photographers make is that they try to grow too quick. What do I mean by that? Well, this kind of ties into the editing.

Raymond: 15:26 When you focus on editing without knowing the fundamentals of photography, that is the best way that I can put it is like a chef focused on making the prettiest plate possible when they don't know how to boil water. I would think that boiling water is, is like cooking one-on-one without a solid foundation. Everything else is for nothing. You are leaving photography up to chance. If you don't know the fundamentals, would you want a doctor to leave an operation up to chance? You wouldn't. A professional doesn't leave anything up to chance. Sure. Things can happen. There can be happy accidents but they don't rely on that to to be able to do their job no matter the type of photography that you want to shoot. We all need the same foundation. Building a strong foundation in photography is essential and it applies to everyone with a camera, no matter if you want to shoot, you know, newborns or wildlife or weddings.

Raymond: 16:33 The foundation of all of, of every type of photography is exactly the same. And like I said with the gear earlier, if you like, start off for those first two years with the bare minimum kit, because when those two years are over, you now know what direction you want to go, what camera you want to get. It is the same with the fundamentals. Once you have the fundamentals, you will now know where you are lacking, where you need more practice, what you want to shoot and therefore what that specific type of photography needs in terms of requirements, right? For wedding photography, I think that knowing flash is essential. In fact, I know that knowing, I think that knowing flash is essential for so many different types of photography, but maybe not so much in the first two years. Adding off camera flash is, is a lot to do.

Raymond: 17:26 Okay. But once you know, oh, I want to get into, you know weddings, I know that I want to, I'm going to have to shoot off camera flash. So now it's more than just the flash, but your camera also has to make changes to be able to shoot with flash and you need to know how to make those changes. But it all starts with a solid foundation. And that is why I've spent the last several months putting the only course the beginner photographers will need. And it's coming out at the end of May. It's going to be called auto two amazing. And audit two amazing is going to walk you through step by step how to shoot manual, how to find great light wherever you are. And I'm going to do that by taking you on location with me where I show you real world shooting situations. And not only that, I will use the same entry-level gear that you have to achieve those incredible results.

Raymond: 18:16 I'm going to shoot with an entry level camera, the the lens that came with it and the 50 millimeter 1.8 that is it. So I will have more information on the auto two amazing course over the next few weeks. But if you're interested in the course and want to know more about it, go ahead and shoot me an email@beginnerphotographypodcastatgmail.com with the subject audit too. Amazing and let me know what it is that you struggle with and I will tell you that if the course is going to be a good fit for you or if something else, well, so I'm really excited for that. Okay, number four on the list. New Photographers want to start a business before they are ready. I often ask new photographers, what do you want your camera to do for you? And I get responses like I want to start a business. I want to stay at home.

Raymond: 19:10 I want to provide extra money for my household. Or even I've gotten this before. I want to be able to pay for my child's college. That is so much pressure. That is a ton of pressure. Especially because just recently the bureau of labor statistics just ranked photographer as one of the 25 worst jobs in America. Yeah. They projected the bureau of labor statistics projected that there will be overall every, you know, overall job economy, job growth will grow by 7% by the year 2026 but photographers will actually see a 5.6% decline in jobs. Now, this is not to discourage you. This is simply to educate you because this is important stuff to know if you want to go into this business, that right now it looks as though photography jobs are in decline for years. You've heard people saying, you know, my in my market is so saturated,uyou know, people are willing to do it for less than me.

Raymond: 20:29 How can they make any money? How can I make any money? And I get that. I get that. So again, this is not to discourage you, this is just to educate you because there are still photographers out there charging $20,000 to shoot a wedding, you know, or even more for bigger events. So there are still jobs out there, not discourage you just to educate you. And when you first start taking photos, you are going to be approached by friends and family, you know, because now you're, you're taking photos, you're posting them on online and now they want you to photograph them, right? Friends and family will come to you for a photo shoot and now you think, you know, you get four or five of those under your belt. You're like, wow, I've made, you know, it's not enough to quit my job, but I've made you know, a good amount of money.

Raymond: 21:17 Like it's some good extra side cash. Maybe I could make a go of this and that is awesome. And if you have that feeling, I think that what you need is to ask yourself if that is truly what you want to start a business, not, don't ask yourself, do you want to stay home all day? Do you want time freedom to hang out with the kids? Or you know, ask yourself, do you want to start a business? Because businesses need sales and sales come from relationships. And at some point family and friends are going to dry up. They've all got, you know, they've all got their photos and by the time that they're ready for new photo, you will have had to have raised your price because you realize, oh I can't, I can't make a living on doing a hundred dollar portrait sessions. I just can't do it. You know, you'd have to shoot if the average median income is $36,000 a year, you know, you've got to factor in 40% for tax. The

cost of doing business, the prints, the camera, the gear, you know you have to be making $70,000 just to make or more just to make that $36,000 and then you know, you can't do that by just shooting a hundred dollar portraits. You are going to be so like so overwhelmed. So like I said, businesses need sales and sales come from relationships, relationships with other businesses, relationships with your community.

Raymond: 22:57 All of these things are important because when you have a friend in need, you want to help them out. If there is just somebody random in need, the chances of you helping them out are dramatically less. You need to build these relationships, but the thing about it is that you still need a, a level of skill required to produce. Would you accept that just because somebody's unclogged their toilet with a plunger that they can now start a full like a plumbing business? You wouldn't because they are going to be wildly unprepared for so many situations that they will run into as a plumber. Not all plumbing needs are just use a plunger on the toilet. Then it's done right? There's so much more than that. And it is the same with photography. Just because you have taken great photos does not mean that you are prepared to take a great photos in various lighting situations.

Raymond: 23:59 And that is fine. That is fine. If you can't go out there and shoot a at night, if you can't go out and shoot at noon, right? Harsh light, if you can't do that, that is fine. That is fine because you're still new and you're still growing. But when you add money into the equation, that becomes a different story. If you can't go out at noon and take great photos and you're charging somebody, you can't just be like, hey guys you know what? I don't like what I see here. Plumber can't do that. Oh, you know what? Yeah, I thought this was just going to be a quick, a plunger job and then I'd be on my way home. Sorry, I can't do it, but I'm going to keep your money. But that's not how you build a business. So that is why knowing the fundamentals of photography once again is so, so, so incredibly important.

Raymond: 24:59 You need to build your skills now, have fun. Do as many free shoots as you can and use that time to network. You go to a local restaurant and say, Hey, guess what? You know what? I would love to photograph your food. I'd love to photograph your staff. I'd love to photograph your place, you know, totally free. We're just trying to build my skills while you're there. That is when you can network. You know, if they say yes, network with them. Now this isn't gonna work at like a chain, restaurant, national chain or anything. But if there's a local restaurant in your town, go to them and ask to do this for them and network with them. Build a genuine relationship. Don't just, you know, don't, don't, don't just let them know that you know, you're just trying to build your portfolio and that you're not very good and then you know, you're going to do your best, but you know, oh, here you go.

Raymond: 25:50 Find out who they are. Find out what it is that they struggle with. Build those genuine relationships. Because when the time comes and you are having a some sort of like mini session, you know, sale you, not only are you going to have somebody that you can pull from and be like, Hey, are you interested? You know, I'm doing this new type of photography. I've already worked with you before. You liked it. Would you like to come do a mini session? You know? But now if they do, now they're going to potentially tell their friends and they're going to come to you. This is why building relationships is so important and that is why building relationships for free, by shooting for free, I think is gold, is gold. I really do think that.

Raymond: 26:32 And then when you are ready to make the jump, you will be so much more better prepared. Okay, so the last, we've made it to the end of the list, made it to the end of the list. Number five. One of the fifth biggest mistake that I see new photographers making is that they simply don't give photography enough time. It takes years to become proficient. The other day in the Facebook group, if somebody posted that they wished that they were naturally good at photography and that they wish that they had the eye, you might be

feeling in the same way. It's understandable. We see so many great photos on social media every single day, you know, from these people who maybe they started after you did, I dunno the, when you go out and you shoot and you see these photos that come back and they're just not the same caliber.

Raymond: 27:34 It's so easy to get discouraged and just give up, but let me tell you something. The people who are quote unquote, naturally good at photography didn't pick up a camera one day and just know how to use that camera. Maybe it took years of, of, of doing something else. Maybe they did animation, maybe they did, you know, they knew composition. Maybe they just knew editing. Maybe they just knew settings on their camera and then point as the people who are naturally good at photography had some sort of help to get them to that point to where it looks like they're naturally good at photography. It is so, so, so incredibly rare that anybody just shows up with a camera says, let me see what this thing does. And then just like blows, like hits it out of the park.

Raymond: 28:22 And again, when you see these photos on social media, it's easy to assume that everyone is good, but the truth is it takes time. Not only does it take time, it takes forever. You will be shooting your entire life and still still 30 40 50 years from now. Learn things about photography that you didn't know the day before because photography is a journey. And the thing about this journey is that it's not a race. When you know here in Indianapolis that any 500 is a big rate. It's a big deal. When the Indy 500 starts. Everybody is in one spot. They go for 500 miles and then there is a clear finish line to the yard of bricks that does not exist in photography. It does not exist in art. It does not exist in music. It does not exist in anything that we create.

Raymond: 29:24 You will be learning photography forever because you can start off in one place and end up somewhere completely different and the road that you take to get there is going to be different than somebody else who started in the same place as you and ended up in the same place as you. And that makes photography incredibly to judge of like where you are. I honestly think that depending on how often you are legitimately able to get out there and shoot and learn like more than just like, oh, like here's a good opportunity to let me take a photo real quick, but like really go out and practice and learn. Take that time to learn, soak it in. I legitimately think that how often you realistically can do that. It is unrealistic to think that you can be taking consistently good photos in less than two years of experience.

Raymond: 30:25 I wholeheartedly believe that. Now some of you may, you know, may be in college, maybe single, may not have the a lot of responsibilities and you will have more time to go out and shoot and focus and come back and edit and it will look like your path to growth will be faster than somebody else who is like me in their thirties has kids at home, you know, doesn't have a lot of time freedom. But I think overall if you have been shooting for less than two years, it is unrealistic to, to, to think that you can go out and consistently take good photos because it takes time to get out there and gain experience and that is okay. And the reason why it is okay is because you love to shoot. You are not, you didn't get into photography only to take good photos. Right.

Raymond: 31:25 That's unrealistic to think. You wouldn't just hand a 16 year old the keys to a race car and expect them to be the world's best race car driver. It takes time. It takes time. People listen to me. It takes time. And that is okay. Me. I like singing. I love singing. I'm not good at it in any sort of professional capacity, but that is not going to stop me from singing in the shower because I enjoy it. Does that mean then I'm going to go off and that I just, because I enjoy singing in the shower, I'm going to go and be the next, whoever's popular now. It's been so long since I've listened to music or like it, you know it doesn't, that's not what that means. When you are photographer, it is going to take time to build up the skills, build that knowledge and regardless of if you watch every youtube video, read every blog, listen to every

podcast. If you don't go out and shoot, you will not grow. The only way to grow. If you want to grow shoe more, that is it. That is it. Shoot more.

Raymond: 32:41 That's it. Let's go over these five mistakes. Once again, let's, let's, let's sum this whole thing up. Number One, new photographers think that the gear will make their photos. Number two, new photographers love to go heavy on the editing. Number three, new photographers tried to grow way too quick without knowing the fundamentals. Number four, new photographers want to start a business before they are ready, and number five, they don't give it enough time. That's it. Like I said, photography takes time. Photography takes time, but guess what? It is enjoyable. You're going to go out there, enjoy the ride. Don't look for the, don't look for the finish line right now. If you've been shooting for less than two years, do not look for the finish line just to have fun, okay? Until next week. Get out there, keeps shooting. Stay safe and focus on yourself. That's it. I love you all.

outro: 33:46 If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.

BPP 145: The 5 Mistakes New Photographers Make

Automated transcription by temi.com

BPP 144: Jeff Brown - Running 5 Photography Businesses

Jeff Brown was a photographer in the Royal Navy for 10 years before setting out on his own to start 5 successful photography business. Today Im excited to talk about some of the challenges he faced as a photographer in the service and how it prepared him in becoming a professional photographer. Jeff is the author of the book The Photographers Missing Link-ed In helping photographers make connections and book gigs through linked in.

Become A Premium Member is access to more in-depth questions that help move you forward!

In This Episode You'll Learn:

• How Jeff got his start in photography

• The rigorous process to become a Royal Navy Photographer

• What the day of a Royal Navy Photographer looks like

• How Jeff ensures he can capture beautiful portraits of heads of state quickly

• How to know if your work is good enough to start charging

• A difficult situation Jeff had to go through in his photography business

Premium Members Also Learn:

• How Jeff went on to start 5 successful photography business

• The most challenging aspect of running multiple brands

• What makes Linked in a great place for photographers

• What to do after you set up a linked in page

Resources:

• Jeff Brown’s website

• Jeff on Linked In

• Jeff Brown on Youtube

• Jeff Brown on Facebook

• Jeff’s Photography Business Website

Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

Full Episode Transcription:

Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.

Raymond: 00:00 Hey Raymond here from the beginning of photography podcast. And today we're talking about how the Royal Navy prepared today's guest to successfully run five different photography studios. So let's get into it.

Intro: 00:14 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfield, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raymond interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now with you as always, husband, Father Ho brewer, La Dodger Fan, an Indianapolis wedding photographer, Raymond Hatfield. Oh, welcome

Raymond: 00:45 back to today's episode of the beginner photography podcast. As always, I am your host, Raymond Hadfield and I am excited to be here today. Today is a great interview and I cannot wait to get into it with you. But first I want to give a little bit of a shout out. I want to share a recent review that we got on iTunes. Now, today's iTunes review comes from user Barbie brew. Uh, and uh, I'm, I'm guessing it's a, she, I'm guessing Barbie is a girl. And, uh, her review is just as amazing podcast and it's a five star review and, uh, she goes on to say, Raymond has always, uh, Raymond always has a unique interview on board interviews that I never thought would help so much. Keeps it interesting and I really appreciate that short, sweet. And to the point Barbie, if you're listening, if that's even your name or if it's not even just a like a, like a username.

Raymond: 01:40 Thank you for that, a five star review. I truly do appreciate it. Uh, it's nice and quick. I understand very quickly what it was that you enjoy most about the podcast. And uh, I have to say that I share the same view as you when it comes to interviewing, uh, others, genres of photography that, you know, sometimes I feel like, ah, you know, what can I get out of this interview as a wedding photographer or what am I going to, you know, uh, pick and pull out of this person's mind. And somehow everything always relates now may not relate directly, but you can always find one piece of information that is helpful to you in whatever it is that you shoot. So Barbie, I'm glad that, uh, that you have found that as well. So if you're listening right now, I cannot tell you how much I would appreciate it if you were to leave a rating or a review for the podcast in whatever podcast player that you listened to.

Raymond: 02:35 iTunes is, uh, the, the podcast, a rating and review of choice. Uh, but anywhere where you listen to podcasts, I, it would truly help out the podcast. Uh, if you were to just take a moment and leave us a review. So I thank you for that. All right, let's go ahead and get into today's interview. Today's interview is with a photographer, Jeff Brown and Jeff is a UK based, a photographer who has an interesting story of how he got into photography, how, uh, he spent many years as a royal navy photographer before going off on his own and uh, trying his own thing. And it was a lot of interesting stuff. In this episode. Um, and specifically for premium members, if you are a premium member, you are in for treat in this interview, uh, where Jeff is going to share things like how he handles multiple brands and whether or not you should kind of divide them up or just keep them all under one roof.

Raymond: 03:35 The one sentence that, uh, Jeff used to help, uh, book him almost 750 weddings. That's insane. And I've definitely, uh, tried to figure out how I can adapt it into my business because it's gold and uh, what linkedin has to offer photographers that Facebook and Instagram don't. So there you go. If you are a premium member, you're truly going to enjoy this. Uh, the extra information in this episode. There's more than 22 extra minutes for you. And if you're listening and you want to become a premium member and get all of this great information as well as a great information from all past interviews, then go ahead and hit over to beginner photography, podcast.com and up at the top you'll see a link to become a premium member. Just click that and you can join right away. So that's it. All right guys, we're going to get into today's interview right now with Jeff Brown.

Raymond: 04:31 Today's guest is Jeff Brown, a photographer in the Royal Navy for 10 years before setting out on his own to start five successful photography businesses. Today. I'm excited to talk about some of the challenges that he faced as a photographer in the service and how it prepared him and becoming a professional photographer. Jeff is also the author of the book photographer's missing linked in helping photographers make connections and book gigs through Linkedin. Jeff, thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

Jeff Brown: 05:00 Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.

Raymond: 05:02 Good, good. I, I kind of want to start off, uh, I give you a lot of contexts right there in your intro. People kind of have an idea of, of what it is that you do, but I love to start off with the absolute basics and I want to know how you got your start in photography.

Jeff Brown: 05:20 Um, W we'll go right back to the, what got me about photography. Was it funny enough, I used to go fishing, fly fishing for trout and they always used to be an early start, so we'd set out at maybe six o'clock in the morning, um, and we'd capture some that we'd see some amazing sunrises, usually on the waist of the lake or when we got to the lake. And, uh, I just thought, wouldn't it be nice to try and capture that? So I got into photography through fishing, um, and that, that became a sort of a passion of mine. And then in 1976 at 1996, I went to join the Royal Navy. Um, I knew that the Royal Navy had a photography Brunch, but you can't join as a photographer. It's what's called a sidewards entry branch. You have to do another trade for three years before you become a photographer and then apply under your own merit to it to be a photographer. So that's how I got into a career as a photographer was by transferring and becoming a royal lady photographer.

Raymond: 06:16 Wow. That's cool. So by the time you, you even joined, you had already had some sort of skills when it comes to photography. So I'm sure that by the time you got in there and actually applied for the program, uh, you said on your own merits d do they teach you photography? Is there any photography education or is it, here's the camera, let's get to work.

Jeff Brown: 06:36 Yeah, the, they put you through a very, very intensive, uh, it, it's, it's basically everything you learn in a three year degree, ah, Bang through in 26 weeks with 28 exams at the end of it. And you have a basically, um, three strikes in route. So if you fail three exams, then that's it. You're off the course and you return back to base. But the, the pre, the pre to that is putting together your own portfolio. So you have to go to, for your own portfolio, put you on foot portfolio together, and then you go before like a submission board. Uh, and then you have to get all the clearances because the photography brunch worked very closely with the intelligence branch. And then once you'd passed all that, then you were selected to be a photographer. And then if you pass the 28 exams and you come out with that, then you would go up to, um, to your next post in each shot. You shadow an experienced military photographer for maybe two weeks. And then if the thought that your work was good enough, then you'd be sent out to do jobs on your own. And incidentally, my first, my first job on we own a, it was principal of yes and no pressure. Yeah. Yeah.

Raymond: 07:41 So how to get to this point, you said that you got to, you have to be in the branch for three years before you can even apply to be the photographer or a photographer. Yeah. How can you, can you tell me how you, uh, you built a portfolio in that time? Did you do it while you were still serving or was it before you even, um, uh, joined?

Jeff Brown: 07:58 I had a bit of both. So I had, I had some portfolio work from prior to joining the navy landscapes and stuff like that. And then once I had applied to join the photography branch, it's about a six month sort of weird, before you get your, um, you get your acceptance backwards, all the, at least of the interview for so do in that time you could, I could start requesting time off work, maybe an hour here and there to go out and capture some images. Um, ev, predominantly navy based images. So it was getting photographs of helicopters, pilots, people at work, the chef in the, in the Galley doing this stuff. So to build up my own portfolios and to create an impression because the one, the type of person who's just going to go out there and do something, you know, off their own back. Um, so if you could put that enthusiasm through into your portfolio, it's more chance that you, and, and there's a very small branch as well.

Jeff Brown: 08:45 It was only a tiny little branch, so it was actually really job to get a good job to get into because um, once you in there, then, um, they, they said like when for life, you know, and I should, then they should decide to leave. Like I did in the end, but was a really, really good, really good job to be in because, um, yeah, everybody wanted the photographer, everybody wanted pictures. Everybody, everyone was pleased to see, you know, and you didn't, you didn't have to put up with a lot of the navy military stuff that you had. You did any other sort of jobs, you know, it was really good and you had the best, the best of everything, the best care to. You had the best toys to play with you out in helicopters on speedboats. You know, it's fun, fun job.

Raymond: 09:25 Yeah. It doesn't sound like a too bad of a Gig for sure. Um, so when it came time to building your portfolio, how did you know what to even include in your portfolio and how to achieve those images?

Jeff Brown: 09:39 Um, well what I did, I went and that was on a small base at the time, so I went and had a word cause each bass had its own, um, best photographer. Um, so I wouldn't had a word with him. And I says, look, you know, what sort of stuff are they going to be looking for? What sort of stuff to the need? And he said it's all about showing the navy in, in, in like the true colors in their own light. It was all PR stuff. So anything where you could get, you know, the white ensign in the background or the navy sign or you know, somebody stand at the front with a helicopter in the background. So, so the, the, the pictures told the story. That's what they wanted. They wanted like PR stuff. So it was storytelling images. So with that in mind, that's how I went out and started to create images for the, for the portfolio.

Raymond: 10:17 I gotcha. Okay. So, okay, so, so you built this portfolio, you applied to be a royal navy photographer and eventually you got the Gig. Right? So now that you're a Royal Navy photographer, you've gone through all the education. What, what did an average day look like for you?

Jeff Brown: 10:34 An average day was going into work. We had like quite a big area coverage in the northeast of, well they're not the north of England, so we could Scotland all the way down to sort of Liverpool and across the whole a, and that was on land dancy as well. Um, and then obviously there was other jobs that would come in that would require us in different parts of the country or the world or wherever. Um, so you'd, you'd go in usually on a weekly basis, the jobs would be allocated to certain people. So you would know in advance where you gotta be what you've got to do. And it could be anything from something as, as diverse as photographing, um, products or, um, maybe, uh, a defect in a plan's engine to a royal visit or to a Saturday night photographing while marines with black eyes from fighting in the local town. So, yeah. So, so it was, it was quite a diverse, um, mixed bag of jobs. You know,

Raymond: 11:30 I'm sure that you, you saw your share of images from other photographers in the Royal Navy. How much, um, creative freedom did you have in your photographs? Or was it all very technical based?

Jeff Brown: 11:44 I know a lot of creative freedom. Um, it was basically normally would be given like a brief for the job and then you'd come back with a few ideas if it was a job was possibly going to be quite an expensive job. So there's a lot of resources put into the job then, uh, what we do there is we just say look, um, would run it by the boss beforehand. So I did one job where it was the Ark Royal. I was going to be sailing up the, um, the river Clyde and it was a big PR sort of shoot for that. So they had that quite a bit of kit on hand. The Coyle was, was, was busy under my instruction, um, to, to steer one direction or another direction. I was on a, a launch, then I was transferred to speedboats. We had helicopters in the air, so there was a lost of going on. Um, so it was essential that the, the images were right because that, that job probably cost, you know, tens if not hundreds of thousands of pounds to put together to get good, good publicity for the Royal Navy and in newspapers and, and abroad.

Raymond: 12:43 Yeah. I'm sure that just the amount of coordination that would go into something like that is not something that you would want to, uh, just kinda show up to work and take very lightly that day. But Jeff, I apologize, my a two year old here came into the office, so let me go ahead and put her right outside of here.

Jeff Brown: 12:59 That's okay. Quick. I apologize.

Raymond: 13:07 I apologize about spy. You know, kids are, uh, our kids, so, uh, I appreciate the uh, the understanding though. Um, so yeah. Yeah. Then you know, I wouldn't be surprised if, uh, she came in here any moment as well and tried to, you know, sit on your lap or something. Uh, I don't even know why. I must have like the iPod or something in here. So, uh, I apologize. We'll go ahead and get back into this. Um, I appreciate you sharing that cause obviously as somebody who, um, has never been in the service has never had to photograph anything like that. It's hard. I think for me to imagine the amount of, uh, production that has to go into or could go into, um, a shoot like this and kind of where those images go. So, uh, being in that position to where something like this happens, big, uh, production, you're there to photograph it. Uh, have you ever been in a situation where you saw one of your photos and you're like, hey, that's, that's me, that's my photo and like some sort of ad campaign or something?

Jeff Brown: 14:09 Uh, yeah, lot, lots of press stuff. Um, lots of local newspapers, national newspapers, um, and, and magazines as well. So yeah, you've seen a lot. I had one particular job that I got, um, excuse me, a commendation for, um, and if I'm totally honest, uh, it was a bit of a fluke so I could say that I timed it perfectly right. And, uh, but I'll be honest, what it was is the, um, they wanted to fly a helicopter underneath what's called the [inaudible] skin bridge and uh, just outside of Glasgow. So the day before the Boston says, Jeff, go down to the river, Ricky, where are you going to do the shot? And then the next morning go to the, the, the uh, the h spot, speak to the pilot, he'll give you a radio, then you go down and you can just direct the helicopter. So the idea was the helicopter was the seeking how they kept it was going to fly under the bridge.

Jeff Brown: 14:55 I'd seen a really nice port part down by the river where there was a little bit of sort of fence posts, like leading out, it was like a lead in line. So I'd have the fence posts leading out the river [inaudible] bridge in the background and the helicopter would fly on there. So that particular day the sun was coming in and out of the clouds every now and then. So the exposure could be a bit of a nightmare. And bear in mind, we will shoot on film at the time. So I didn't see what I got until obviously I got back to the section and had it negative negatives developed. But uh, the helicopter had enough fuel for two flights under the bridge and that was it. Uh, and the final words are the boss was, don't, don't make uh, a balls up of this cause it's costing about 50 grand just to do this one picture.

Jeff Brown: 15:35 So, so yeah, he put the pressure on. So for the first time the helicopter come on. Ah, he did each run and I thought, look, he probably did, I said to the pilot, I says, can you drop a bat another 20 feet as you come in for the second run, slow down a bit and put your front Hava lights on. Cause the hover lights look quite cool as soon as you come down. Um, I'm standing there in position, he comes flying along and as the hover lights, the hub with a hover lights on. And then because that dropped her that extra 20 foot, it created a bit of spray coming him off the water. And at that moment that the spray came up, the sun came from behind the clouds and it created a rainbow. So I was just like, wow, bam, Bam, Bam, Bam, rather than offloads a shot. And it wasn't until I got back to the section, which was a good sort of a 45 minutes drive from. I'd been doing the pictures and then we did the whole sort of, you know, half an hour or so to get the negatives processed and stuff that I could see. I actually captured it, but I could see it was really creative and had planned for it, but I didn't, it was just a complete flip. So,

Raymond: 16:37 yeah. That's amazing. That is amazing. Uh, I, this just the other day I went, uh, down to St Louis where I met with, uh, one of the listeners of the podcast and we were kind of talking about is Jason, we were talking about, uh, using a light meter. Right? He's wondering, you know, how much uh, um, use he can get out of a light meter nowadays, especially with digital back in the film days. How did you, how did you, did you, did you use a light meter to get the correct exposure for this, for this helicopter coming under the bridge and if so, how do you account for the spray and the sun coming up over the uh, over the hill

Jeff Brown: 17:10 we were, we were trained, we were trained some of 'em in a couple of ways. One was to use light meter but for the first two weeks of the program is you, um, you sent out to do photographs without the light meter, so to, to learn particular types of skies, particularly environments where you would have like a basic fall back exposure and obviously because of the exposure latitude of the film, because we got a lot more exposure latitude with film where you did have then than you had with digital then um, cause you didn't get the burnout. Then what we would do is we'd have that baseline exposure and we'd always as a default go for that baseline exposure. If you did have a chance to use light meter it so you'd know that, you know, you could push it a bit on the, on the processing and still get a really, really good image.

Jeff Brown: 17:57 So that's what we did. We knew that a lot of the time cause I think as well, whether the way the trend with the services is because you had people like, um, photographers gone with like Royal Marines to pluses like no nowhere where it's, you know, minus 30 minus 40 degrees. The only, the only kid that would effectively work out there would be like hustle bloods because any digital stuff or just about these would die within seconds. Light meters would die. So you have to use, um, basic, basic mechanical kit that we're take a picture. So you're not relying on anything technical because technical stuff doesn't cope very well in, in extreme temperatures.

Raymond: 18:31 Yeah. Yeah. He really got to learn to turn your eyes into light meters. That's good. Yeah. Yeah. Jeez. Um, well you kinda talked earlier when I asked you what the average day would look like for you and you mentioned it could be anything from documenting a failure in an airplane engine to photographing, uh, royal family members coming for a visit. Can I kind of want to ask, cause I'm sure that when it comes to taking photos of, you know, members of a royal family, your time is going to be probably very limited. So I'm also sure that you were aware that they were going to show up and that it wasn't just like a drop in. So how do you prepare for a situation like that to be able to get the shot that you need? Uh, so quickly?

Jeff Brown: 19:13 It all depends on which member of the royal family it is. Because some, some were a little bit more enthusiastic to photographers than others.

Raymond: 19:22 It's a very diplomatic way of putting it.

Jeff Brown: 19:24 Yeah. And some, so, yeah. So people like Charles, um, was actually really nice guy and very self, um, sympathetic of photographers. And a lot of them would hold the pose a little bit longer if they're greeting somebody or shaking somebody's hand because they would be aware that the military photographer was there. Now bear in mind when stuff like this was happening, the military photographer would be in front of the press lines. So the press would usually be be kept behind the line and we would be walking side by side that member of the royal family. Um, my first job as I says, was Prince Philip and add he, you know, two weeks out I train and, and he, my boss said to is he hates photographers, especially military ones. So he, yeah, so he didn't make my job very easy, but, um, th that it was like anything is just preplanning known the route known.

Jeff Brown: 20:12 Um, where are going to take the pictures from where the vantage points are going to be. Way's going to take the salute, who is going to be meeting, what dignitaries. So have like a really good sort of time schedule for everything. And, and obviously that's like a military thing. And effectively, that was a really good, um, skill that I learned prior planning, uh, time management and attention to detail. Three key military skills that helped me build up a wedding business because all those three skills are really required in wedding photography. You've got to get your timing right. You've got to, you know, to pay attention to detail. Um, and you've got to, you've got to Preplan, you've got to know where everything's going to be and who's going to be there and what photographs the bride wants. So it was a really good transferable skill that took us over to the wedding for several weeks side when I left.

Raymond: 20:56 Yeah. Yeah. I would imagine. I would imagine as you were saying, uh, having that good timetable, knowing when you know he's gonna do the salute. I'm sure. You know, my first thought was knowing when a bride is going to have that first kiss, you know, like these are things that, you know, are gonna happen. Just being prepared for them. So if you knew, um, you know, when the salute was going to happen and where it was going to happen, would there be anything that you would do to, um, uh, just ensure that that shot was the best that it could be beforehand?

Jeff Brown: 21:26 Yeah, well, I would say one of the, one of the big things was, um, because again, we're going back today, a lot of that was on days film. Um, so a lot of this was, was just checking the background out. You know, you're, the last thing you want is a picture of Prince Philip with a, uh, a billboard with something [inaudible] appropriate on, you know, the naked woman on a billboard next to a car. And then, hey man, I seen goes all the time. I understand. So, so yeah. So you've got to think, you've got to look at the bigger picture. So don't just, and that was where the attention to detail cam, you know, focus on, on that, but also what's in the background, what's going to obstruct? Is there going to be anything going out the back of his head? Yeah. Um, because yes to fly this can can be corrected, but we were taught anywhere that, you know, shoot it right in the frame of first time and he can save yourself a hell of a lot of time afterwards, whether it's like in the dark room or whether it was with digital photoshopping.

Raymond: 22:16 Beautiful. Beautiful. Um, so you talked there about, uh, being prepared, uh, going into the, uh, on your own, right. So after leaving the Royal Navy, uh, you said that you started, uh, you started shooting, uh, weddings, which I know just from reading from your website, you have started, uh, companies shooting weddings, portraits, commercials or commercial work, PR Work, uh, school and nursery work as well as bu Duar, which shoots a thousand shoots a year alone, which is just, wow. So my question to you is not only how, like how do you even do something like this, where, where, where did you start? Was it with weddings?

Speaker 2: 23:01 Enjoying today's interview with Raymond's guest wants to hear their full interview and gain access to more monthly educational photography tutorials. Become a premium member of the podcast. There is no commitment and you can cancel at any time to sign up, head over to patrion.com/beginner photography podcast or by clicking the banner on beginner photography, podcast.com sign up and start taking better photos today. Now let's get back to the interview with Raymond's guest. One thing,

Raymond: 23:34 we're talking a lot here about kind of the business side of things, starting a a a business. But before we even really start a business, people start charging for their work. And one of the things I hear very often from listeners is a that they struggle to know when their abilities, their technical abilities are good enough to start charging. Um, and we kinda touched on this earlier, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Jeff Brown: 23:59 But I think one of the, one of the things to do, you know, everybody has to do something that, um, we, you know, we all started doing stuff for free and, and actually some bloke had said on the, on Linkedin when ad put in a post a while ago about some, you know, we all, even the best photographer in the world did his first shoot for free. And then this guy was saying, no, no, no, there's people who don't, you know. And I says, no, I said, because you're never going to have a portfolio. You know, before, before I started doing weddings, all ad shop was marines running around with guns and pitchers of ships. I'm not gonna show that to you. No, no, no. Bright to be, he's going to go, oh yeah, he was a nice picture of a ship. Um, do you want to do my wedding?

Jeff Brown: 24:35 You know, so I had to do my first two weddings for free, but I think what you do is, is you use their, um, how happy they were as a, as a good reflection of it. Right. Okay. It's ready to tap to start charging. And one thing I want, you know, we all have to start off at the very beginning, but I said don't become too price obsessed. So when you feel, you know, if somebody, if somebody says to you, those pictures are amazing, I love them photographs bright, you've got the ability, you've got the scale, you've got three or four weddings on the lapel or you've got four or five portraits and the about now is the time to stop doing stuff for free because otherwise people will just continue to take the Mickey out. Urea expects to for free. You know, you wouldn't get a builder to come around and put in your kitchen and then say, oh, are you gonna just going do it for free?

Jeff Brown: 25:23 You know, we, we, we are professionals and we need to be re, we need to be rewarded for doing what we do. You know, it's our time, but because we're creative, we usually quite funny about the money thing. But you've got to get strict and you can say, no, this is, this is, you know, if, if you don't like it, go elsewhere. So I would say to start with, get an average idea of price of what people in your areas charging, right? Get that, get that average idea in your price initially so you can start putting your price and structure together. Once you got that average idea, stop it. Never look at another local photographers price again. Then where you want to do is you want to look at, pick four or five photographers. So this could be in your a, I would say pick three now. Um, so two nationally, one internationally and one locally. But these are all top of the game. So what you wanna do is if you're a wedding photographer, find out the best wedding photographer in your state. Then find out the best two wedding photographers in the u s or in the UK or in Canada. You know, it depends on which way, where your country is and then look

Raymond: 26:32 Should they be in a similar niches as you?

Jeff Brown: 26:35 Um, yeah, if you're going to go for a particular Neisha let you know if you're going for country themed sort of. Yeah. So go for that and then look up the big guys in the world. And the reason being what that does is it also, it lets you know that these people do exist. These people do get regular content on, you know, regular, regular shoots. You just got to look at their social media. You look at the social media, see fresh posts on everyday with different people's faces on these people are shooting all the time. Um, but you know, 10 years ago those people were doing their first jobs for free or even two years ago. Your things can change so fast. When I first started out, you know, it was, it was slower because you had a build up in the yellow pages. We didn't have initially social media in 2004.

Jeff Brown: 27:18 Um, now I've, I've had clients come on board and then within three month, you know, they're doing 5,000, 10,000 pounds because they've created a brand quickly online, you know, cause you can just source your new clients and look at themselves and then target them. So I think what you, what you wear, a lot of photographers go wrong. They start looking at what everybody else's charged and keep going back to that. You don't want to use that. That starts off as your reference point. Put your reference point in. Your goal is to look at the big boys and say, well, I'm going to get there and that's where I'm going to go. And the good thing is in looking at the big boys from where you are now, as you start to develop, not on, not you, not necessarily photography skills, but your business skills and your people skills and the people skills are massive thing for wedding photography.

Jeff Brown: 28:02 You can start a pick faults with the big boys. So yeah, you've got all this money but you don't, you know, your website doesn't come across very personal. You don't do a free consultation because you think you're too big to be doing a free consultation anymore, you know, so you can start picking her. So, you know, if I was in and that top money, this is what I'd give, this is what I do. So you can start improving yourself, you know? And it's exactly the sort of the thing I did when I started my mentor in Business. You know, I started out doing mentor and with one follower, then I got to, you know that now I've got like 60 70,000 followers and I work in 21 different countries. But I started out with just one person and I'm still following two big mentors and keeping an eye on what they're doing and thinking, I'm going to pee, I'm going to, I'm going to wipe your ass.

Jeff Brown: 28:49 I'm gonna beat you. You know? Eventually I'm gonna get past and, and I don't say, yeah, and I don't care what the other ones below at their end, because I'm not really bothered about them, you know? And I think the other thing is, well, as he's trying to copy anybody, be yourself. You know, you've, you've, you've got to be your own person. You don't want to spend a lot of time doing videos and stuff like that. And if I wasn't just me, if I tried to be somebody I wasn't, then people would see through that and get, you know, I'd get, luckily I don't get much bad press on doing videos. That's why I'm quite keen to just do it and get, as long as I get the message out there and I come across as me and I come across genuine, then people quite find it hard to say bad things about you. If you try and be somebody false, I'll try and be somebody you're not, then that's when people will start to pick faults with you. Yeah, they're going to pick that up for sure. I totally understand that. Yeah. That was a great roadmap to,

Raymond: 29:42 to starting off from your first free shoot to actually like making it and not only making it but like being very successful and happy. Yeah, so that was, that was a great piece of information that you shared on. I know that the listeners are going to really appreciate that. I know I'm going to go back and listen to that, see if I can pick up any little extra bits of information to apply to myself. So again, thank you. Thank you for that. No problem. Um, this is my last question for you and this one I'm really excited for because it's not something that I ask very often, but in your email that you sent to me when we were having our correspondence back and forth, you said that in your journey as a photographer, you've had some ups and downs, Fun Times and not fun times. Can you tell me about one of those not fun times and how did you get out on the other side?

Jeff Brown: 30:32 Um, I've had a few, Eh, I think for biggest disasters, um, is, and I think I would say this definitely from the business point of view because a lot of photographers might, um, might get that is, um, you know, we get the phone calls of people trying to sell the advertising. Um, as soon as you set up as a business and I got sucked into the radio advertising one and how it was going to be amazing and there's going to be prides flocking to the door and stupidly spent, this was there were [inaudible] you probably went for and I spent uh, over 5,000 pound on a radio advert. Yeah. Which didn't get me one thing, not a thing, not a thing. Um, yeah. So, so that was financially, that was probably one of the worst disasters within that business. Um, so think another one, like one thing I've, I've offered for, for years that we, um, is as part of our packages, we offer a hundred percent money back guarantee.

Jeff Brown: 31:30 So we say you'll totally love you wedding photographs and if you don't, we'll give you the money back. And that was our sort of, you know, that made us stand out. That was, um, because I believe as well, you know, if you're a wedding photographer, if you can't guarantee that you're going to do a good job, then you shouldn't really be doing a good job anyway cause you got, it's not, you can shoot it again the next day. Sure. Um, so anyway, for years we ran with that. Never had anybody, um, take us up on the money back guarantee cause everybody was totally happy. But what we did is the images went onto an online gallery and within seven days there would have a, an email sent out to them, tell them the images will live to go on and check them. And then if they had any quibbles about the service or the images, they'd have to notify us within seven days if they wanted to revoke their, their guarantee.

Jeff Brown: 32:17 If the, if the soldier for totally happy, then they'd get the USB key would go out with the full resolution images and start putting albums together anyway. One bride and did try to revoke guarantee told us that she absolutely hated the images that are totally ruined. I, when they, well she didn't, her husband was on the phone, she was in the background crying her eyes out. I could hear her going, oh, oh, oh. And, and he said, you know, would add, I mean I was absolutely devastated. There was me and this girl Hannah, who was my second shoot and worked with [inaudible] for over 10 years. She was a very experienced photographer. So basically they wanted a full refund and they wanted, um, another 500 pound in compensation for the deal, the upset that it caused. So I agreed to it, um, and said I would, I would get the money cause in the terms and conditions that would get the money within 14 days.

Jeff Brown: 33:08 So it was right. We just gotta pull some money out of the business seven's apparent accounts book, you know, pay them within 14 days. It was just about the pay of them. About four days before Hannah Rudd said to his, Jeff, if you, if you had a look on phase Facebook page, and I know, cause that had never occurred to us. So she says, go, go ahead and look on our Facebook page. She says, you haven't, you haven't refunded I yet have, you know, and she says, just have a look and then ring us back. So I, I checked her Facebook page now profile picture was the sign under the Rochester, a cover photo was them walking down the aisle and all these images that would been uploaded at low-resolution to the online gallery. We'll all over a Facebook page and people go, wow, you look amazing.

Jeff Brown: 33:53 Oh you must love these. And she's saying, yeah, yeah, the fantastic. Now I know her brother worked in it, so I don't know how we'd rush to get these images at war. So I found my, um, good friend up in London. He was a, uh, commercial barrister for the BBC and he looked through the contract that she'd signed and he says, well, she's actually in breach a copyright because those images are not yet hers. Wow. Because, cause there was still on the online gallery, I hadn't given a USB t he says, so what she's doing, he says we were going to sue our for breach of copyright, which at the time in the UK I think was some tonight at 10 30 you could be fined up to 10,000 pounds. Wow. It was a lot of money. So Ricky put this really nasty, very stern worded letter together and he says, wait until the last day.

Jeff Brown: 34:42 He says, because you can guarantee if you haven't, we funded them on day 14 day 15 you're going to get a phone call. Sure enough, diff 15 gets a phone call off her husband shouting and screaming. We haven't had the money. This is disgusting. I'm just going to, before you go any further, I'm just going to send you an email. I'd like you to read and then decide what you want to do afterwards. So I sent the email and I got an email back within 10 minutes in, forget the whole thing. Or you know what happened? The funny thing that happened is they, I actually got the last laugh because they'd paid for an album package, a digital, you know, a storybook style album, which, you know yourself, you've probably paid about three or 400 quid from somewhere like Raffi studio or someone on how to [inaudible]. And I sent them just, just out of goodwill. I sent them the USB key with all the high resolution images on, but then never got back to it was about the album because they were too embarrassed. [inaudible] I went in the end, you know, I said, it just goes to show with comedy, isn't it? You know what, what goes around comes around. So,

Raymond: 35:44 yeah. Well I appreciate you sharing that. Obviously difficult situation from a, uh, from a bride as I'm sure plenty of people listening right now would think I would have no idea what to do in a situation like that. And, uh, now they need to know that they have to look at their contract and make sure that those specific terms are in there.

Jeff Brown: 36:03 Yeah. To protect their site. And I think the other thing too is, you know, you can never win when you do them with the public. And this is not a horrible thing to say because 99% of the general public is honest, but you know, um, sometimes it just doesn't surprise you what people will do.

Raymond: 36:19 Yeah. From like you've been in business for that long. It, it's, it's almost like when is it going to happen? I would assume, you know, you get so many people coming through the door that statistically you would have to have a situation like that. So again, thank you for sharing that. That's incredible. So, um, but Jeff, I got to say, uh, I've, I've, I really appreciate everything that you've shared today. Um, your knowledge and your skill is, is, is very impressive and it was a joy to speak with you before I let you go. Can you let everybody know where they can find you online?

Jeff Brown: 36:54 Yeah, well I have a website which is a focus on marketing.co. Dot. UK or you can just drop me an email to info at focus on Marketing Dakota, UK. And then I also have a Facebook page, which is the same focus on marketing. And then you can find us on Linkedin as well. So linkedin is just Jeff Brown, the photographer mentor.

Raymond: 37:13 Perfect. And I will of course link to each and every one of those things in the show notes. Jeff, again, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It was, it was a pleasure.

Jeff Brown: 37:23 No problem at all. Thanks very much. Thanks for having us take care.

Raymond: 37:27 That was such a great interview. So much for shared, including my, uh, my two year old daughter. She came in here, she was so excited she wanted to listen to. So, uh, if you're, if you heard that, I apologize. Uh, but that's kids. So I, I want to share though, my biggest takeaway from this interview, and Jeff shared a lot. Jeff shared a ton of great stuff today. Um, a lot of it I thought was, was actionable that you can put into your work right now. But I think overall my biggest takeaway was just how much work you have to put in to be a photographer. Right? It's not something that you can just go out there and press a button and take a photo and it's great. We know that, right? We know that. But what Jeff shared was that obviously having a very strong understanding of the fundamentals of photography is what is going to set you up best in the future.

Raymond: 38:19 Um, specifically that example of the shot of the helicopter coming in under the bridge just wouldn't have been able to get that shot. Anything more than just a snapshot if he didn't have a strong understanding of the, of the fundamentals of photography. And you understand that that is when you can go off and start practicing your creativity because creativity is hard to teach because it's kind of, it's inside of everybody and it's, it's how you tell a story, but that's easy to learn because it's inside of you. What you have to do is figure out the fundamentals of photography and that is what Jeff shared today. So that was, that was definitely my biggest takeaway. I would love to hear your biggest takeaway, uh, from today's interview. And you can share that in the beginning of photography podcast, Facebook group, share it with all more than a thousand members, uh, who are likeminded photographers somewhere in their journey in photography. Who Will, uh, appreciate you sharing, uh, your thoughts on today's interview. So that is it. Uh, I'm going to leave you guys with that. So until next week, uh, I want you to get out there. I want you to keep shooting. I want you to stay safe and I want you to focus on yourself. All right, that's it. I'll see you next week.

Speaker 2: 39:35 If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.

BPP 143: Roie Galitz - Nature and Conservation Photography

Roie Galitz is an award winning wildlife and conservation photographer who's life mission is to shoot photos that speak for those who can not speak for themselves. Having shot endangered animals on all 7 continents, Im so excited to talk about how we can make a difference in the world with our cameras.

Become A Premium Member is access to more in-depth questions that help move you forward!

In This Episode You'll Learn:

• What is the job description of a Wildlife and Conservation Photographer

• How Roie love of photography lead him to nature

• Why Roie says learning the technical side of photography is the easiest part to learn

• Why you don’t need to be “creative” to be a successful photographer

• How to prepare for the unpredictable nature or wildlife

• How are Roie makes bookings

• How Roie has seen his photography impact the world

• Recommendations for new photographers getting into wildlife and conservation photography

• What kind of gear you need to get started with wildlife photography

• What you need to know before you go out and photograph wild animals

• The importance of having goals

Resources:

• Wildlife and Conservation Photographer Roie Galitz Website

• Roie Galitz on Instagram

Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

Full Episode Transcription:

Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.

Raymond: 00:01 Hey Raymond here from the beginner photography podcast. And today we're talking about wildlife and conservation photography. So let's get into it.

Intro: 00:10 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfield's, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raymond interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now with you as always, husband, father, Home brewer, La Dodger Fan, an Indianapolis wedding photographer, Raymond Hatfield. Oh, welcome

Raymond: 00:40 back. Each and every one of you. I'm happy to see you. I'm happy for you to be here right now with me hanging out, chatting, talking about photography, because that is what we are doing today on the podcast. Like every week, I guess. So it's not just today, it's, it's, it's every, it's every day. So this is just another great episode. This is another episode that I, I gotta be honest. I love what I do. I really do. And today is no exception. Uh, you guys are going to get a lot out of this interview and I, because I interview somebody who I've never interviewed before in this genre photography, wildlife and conservation photography. I've tried to get other wildlife photographers on here. They're busy, they're in other remote parts of the world. And it just so happened that with today's guest, our calendars lined up and we made, we made magic, we made magic.

Raymond: 01:27 So I know that you guys are gonna really enjoy this episode, but first I want to give a shout out to a recent iTunes review. I love these. I love iTunes reviews. Whenever I see a new review, I, I get like, like warm inside. I know that sounds dumb. It's not, it's not the beer, I promise. It is. It's the joy that I get from hearing your take on photography, learning photography in the podcast itself. So today's iTunes review comes from Mick grody, Danny, number one mic grody. Danny, I don't know who you are, but all I can say is thank you for your review. He says, or maybe she says, I don't know. They say this is such a great resource for anyone trying to get into photography or are already a photographer. So many topics are discussed. Many of which I tried to wrap my head around.

Raymond: 02:19 Uh, vet aren't even related to photography or using a camera. For example. One topic was all about photography contracts and the many scenarios that could occur. Well make grody Danny number one. Thank you again for leaving me a review and thank you for having a hilarious username that makes me giggle like a child every time I say it because it's a, I don't know, it's, it's interesting. So again, uh, if you are interested in that interview that, uh, that they mentioned about photography contracts, that was interview number one 35 with Rachel brand key, the law tog so go back and have a listen to that if you didn't already. Uh, she a ton about, uh, all of the legalities of being a new photographer. You know, like when you need to have a contract, what should be in that contract. We talk a lot about money.

Raymond: 03:09 So again, if you're interested, go back and have a listen. Okay, we're going to get into today's interview, but before we do that, I have to make a bit of a disclaimer. Uh, today's audio is not the best. I, uh, have tried everything to, uh, to work it out, but we did have some technical difficulties when recording, uh, and something went haywire. So, uh, again, I did my best. It is not the audio quality of, of, of episodes past, but, uh, I know that you are still going to be able to get a ton out of this interview. So, uh, just know that the audio goes from good right in the beginning to, uh, well it just drops off really quick. And again, I did my best, but, um, I'm not an audio engineer. This is not the beginner audio engineers podcast. OK. I, I did my best and I hope that you can still get a lot out of a I out of this interview.

Raymond: 04:10 But once again, I will say that, uh, there's specifically, if you're in your car right now, please listen up there specifically one a moment pretty early on where, uh, I believe on Roy's end, uh, there was a horn honking outside of his window and it startled me and I'm standing here stationary in an office. So if you're driving your car, it may, and in fact, probably we'll start, start startled you. Why was that hard for me to say? So, uh, just, uh, don't go looking around. Uh, you know, they'll figure out who you're going going to cut off in traffic because it's a, it's the audio. Uh, so that's it. That's all. That's all. That's all that I can say about that. Uh, we're going to get into this interview right now with wildlife and conservation photographer, Rory Galatz. Today's guest is Roy Galatz and award-winning wildlife and conservation photographer whose life mission is to shoot photos that speak for those who cannot speak for themselves, having shot endangered animals all around the world. I'm so excited to talk about how we can make a difference in the world with our cameras. Roy, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Roie Galitz: 05:18 Thanks for having me.

Raymond: 05:20 of course. Before we get started, I want to know in your own words, what is wildlife and conservation photographer?

Roie Galitz: 05:31 So, um, I'd say it's a form of communication, first of all, cause uh, you're telling stories, I mean, we've all seen what the nature is. We all have seen the struggle those animals are going through on a daily basis. We've all seen our impact. So for me, photography is a way to communicate that into viewers worldwide because the animals can speak for themselves and many people write about it. But nothing is stronger than your eyesight. Some nothing is stronger than hardcore visual evidence of storytelling on what's going on in the field. That's, that's what it is for me.

Raymond: 06:20 So I've, I've seen your talks and I know that obviously, uh, you know, not only a lot about the ecosystem that these animals are in that you're talking about, but you're also a very talented photographer. So I got to know what was it that came first? Was it the love of photography or was it the love of conservation?

Roie Galitz: 06:43 Well of course the answer is one, it's the rough photography because I fell in love with photography and photography has broaden my horizons in such a profound way that I, I finally found a way to share my world perspective, the way I see and feel the world. And it gave me tools to experience the world in a more enhanced way. So photography and the passion for photography came first. And at the beginning I was photographing everything and anything I was addicted, I was obsessed. I'm not shy to say the word obsessed. And uh, and the love for, for nature can came during that period. And it became my, my primary focus on, in photography around 2006. Until then, I was doing everything since 2003 to 2006. I even shot some commercials. I've done some commercial work, some portraits, but the, the two loves for wildlife nature and, and photography, uh, got together and just happened very naturally, so to speak.

Raymond: 08:03 So when you first picked up that camera, I want to know what was, what was the hardest part about photography, uh, from a technical standpoint for you to learn?

Roie Galitz: 08:14 Um, to be honest, the technical side was the easiest one for me. I just, uh, it all felt so logical, so simple, like the way it should have been. And, and actually the creative side was my, I, uh, bigger difficulty. That's where, that's where I struggle. That's where I was fighting to find my own voice, my own, our inputs. Um, it wasn't the technical side. The technicality was always easy for me. Uh, but the creative side is a lot. So, so when it came to the creative

Raymond: 08:56 side, um, was it your early photos that you looked at and you just realized that they weren't where you saw others, where their photos were or what was it that led you to, to, to start focusing on, on the creative side?

Roie Galitz: 09:10 Well, uh, I used creativity through technique. I thought that, uh, well for me, first of all, photography was a way to experience the world in a, in richer, enriched way. Um, but in order to get to that point, I use technique as my tool for creativity because for me, if you show somebody the world as it is, it isn't that interesting because they already see it that way because that's the way it is. So I want it to show the world in a different view. So I started doing an experimenting with a macro photography, uh, insects, you know, by bugs and so on. I started doing some landscape. I really, I got into infrared photography and, uh, HDR, which is like, I think every photographer falls into the lap there in the beginning. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And then you get out and you see that it's all, it's all really the worst kind of a thing, but we all did it.

Roie Galitz: 10:14 It's okay. Uh, everybody is photographing override, started photographing flowers and cats. Some do, but you continue onwards. So, uh, I use the technique to find my different view, to show the world in a different way, uh, as other photographers are, you can get the word in a different way and showing it creatively without technique. So I started, uh, aspiring in that direction. I started looking into other other, other photographers works and, uh, post-processing. So I think that it's still my challenge because every time I tried to show things differently, I, I've been doing that ever since. It's a going struggle and I don't think anybody, there is any, I don't think there is any photographer who doesn't struggle with it because it's the holy grail because you want to show something new, cause actually showing more of the same, you're irrelevant. You're not interesting. You've got an experience, you've got to experiment, you've got to show in the world in a different view. And I think it's, it will never finish that struggle.

Raymond: 11:29 I love that kind of sentiment that you had there. Uh, so my question is once, once somebody's, uh, they get going, right, they practice all sorts of photography. They figure out something that they're kind of drawn to and then they start to go towards that path and then still experiment, experiment, experiment. Can you give me an example of, of maybe today where you're still experimenting in your photography? 13 years in?

Roie Galitz: 11:55 Sure. Um, actually it's six days when I started, but that's why I like photography is there. But, uh, I'd like to, I'd like to elaborate on, on the previous note before I go into my current experimentation. Um, I think that each and everyone, one of us, and I'm for sure one of them. Uh, we all have our strengths and our weaknesses. Okay. And in life, in general, in photography and specifically you've got to find, you need to map who you want are and where is your strength and where is your weaknesses. Uh, and you got to go with your strengths because they should just start going with your weaknesses. Your only be mediocre at best after a long struggle and, uh, lots of failures. Uh, and that's a good way to go in life in general and photography specifically. So, uh, I think mapping my own, I've been doing some inner thinking.

Roie Galitz: 13:00 I think that every photographer should do that. What am I good at? What am I bad at? Where are my weaknesses? Where are my strengths? Where are my opportunities? Where are my threats? Uh, and I, I came to understanding that I'm not really creative. I'm sorry. I'm not really, uh, you know, you can say very, uh, and my wife says, not very low emotional, uh, emotional, uh, how do you call it? Um, quantity, uh, intelligence, emotional intelligence. You know, that phrase? Of course. Yeah. That, that, uh, so I'm, I thought I was good at portrait photography, but I really wasn't because that's my weakness. Other photographers are doing amazing job. They get into the room, they see the other subject, they become best friends within five minutes, and in the next 10 minutes they photograph your soul. Okay. I'm, I, I can't do that. I can't, I don't have that ability as a human being. Uh, so although I thought I wanted to be a portrait photographer, I don't have that ability. I don't have that, that skillset. Uh, but as I said, I'm very technical, so I went into the, into the areas in photography where technicality matters and that in a, uh, commercial work and that in, uh, sports, photography and nature photography, because the other is you need skills that they don't have such as creativity or, or, uh, emotional intelligence or, uh, other sets of skills. Uh, so after that mapping, I remained those three

Roie Galitz: 14:52 and I did, I also did a lot of sports photography, but I love nature too better because in sports also that, I don't want to say another thing, another aspect is that in sports you have so many people in that field of sports. Okay. Like, I like surfing photography that, so there's a lot of surfers who are doing photography and they do a wonderful job and they know all the surfers and they know what surfers like and they know how to Photograph Surf Surfing even better than me. Okay. The same with every field in sports, you name it, soccer, football, uh, athletics, uh, bikes, whatever. Every field. You have that guy who is one of the guys and he is doing amazing photography. And also is doing it for free. So I think, I think that, uh, I couldn't compete in that field and that's one more reason I went into wildlife photography, into nature photography. So it all, it all combines and, and, and that's the reason why, why I went to nature photography.

Raymond: 16:01 You know, I think that that story, I'm sorry. Real quick, I think that story is really gonna Resonate with a lot of listeners of the podcast. Um, and I shared this last week, I sent out a, a survey to my listeners [inaudible] excuse me, asking a series of questions. And one of the questions was, do you think that you are creative? And 70% said that they felt like they were creative, but 30% said that they felt like they were not creative. And I don't know, maybe it's just me cause this is who I am. But I was trying to wrap my head around that, trying to figure out like that bundle. But hearing your perspective kind of fills in those gaps for me. And I hope that the listeners who said that, no, I don't feel like I'm creative. Also get a lot out of that statement as well. So thank you for sharing that.

Roie Galitz: 16:47 That's great. Because I think that when asking people, uh, if there is a certain, they're the ones that survey asking students to rate if they are above the average in their class or below, the average of their class at 90% said they're above the average. And of course, of course that can be 90% the average. Okay. So, um, so the same with the here. I think that the definition of creativity varies. Uh, because although I, I, I'm doing creative work, I don't send myself creative in the creative aspects that I want to be. So creativity is many times, uh, it's a subjective of course. Okay. So you can't say he is creative. He is not creative. He has it. He doesn't have it. It's a, it's a range. It's a, yeah, it's a, you can't say from here, creativity starts and here it ends. Uh, but you always, you can create your creativity by inspiration.

Roie Galitz: 17:56 My inspiration from other photographers, from other fields in arts, from other nature, from uh, trying to change your perspective, working with different clinics, uh, you be more creative or differently creative with a drone then with a camera and on your iPhone. Okay. So, uh, there are a lot of techniques and I'm a technical kind of guy. There's a lot of techniques to creativity and that's what I'm using. I don't have that guts creativity, so to speak, saying that I wake up in the morning, I haven't image and then I go and create something out of nothing. You know what I mean? Yeah. Which some flower there, they're amazing. Uh, I mean I wish, I wish I could do that. I wish I could draw, I wish I could play, but I don't. And that's who I am. I have my advantages, I have my disadvantages, I have my strengths and my weaknesses and everybody should find their own strengths and ministered with witnesses because once you know who you are, you have a much better way to deal with the world as it is.

Raymond: 19:05 I love that. I love that. Okay. So, so building upon that, okay, let's focus a little, a little bit less on the creative side if that's a bit of a weakness and we'll focus more on the technical side, which obviously wildlife photography has a lot of. Now, recently I was watching your, um, I believe it was Tedx, uh, Helsinki talk where you were talking about the rarity of capturing mating polar bears. Okay. Yeah. Wonderful Talk. I thoroughly enjoyed it, but I want to know, you know, you just said a, you don't just go into it and hope for the best that there's a lot of planning involved. So how do you prepare to be in the right place at the right time for these two endangered animals to come together and do something that they do once every three years?

Roie Galitz: 19:57 Well, you play a nice music. You put some wine. No, I'm just kidding. Ah, well my, my creativity comes from, first of all, from behaviors and aspects in an exclusive access and a kind of, uh, aspirations. I want to get calls. How do I get closer? I want to shoot from above this behavior. How do I do that? So it comes from the needs that my creativity comes from a need and not out of a creativity for the sake of creativity. Um, but, uh, plan planning is a key factor because I, I have a list of images I want to do and I think everybody should have a list. It doesn't mean you'll get the list done. I don't think, I don't know any photographer who got his list done. But having a list helps you focus on what you need to get. So I wanted to do a pull up there, meeting photography.

Roie Galitz: 20:58 So there is several aspects. What do I need to get that shot? I got to go where the fall bears are. Sorry. Got to find out where the polar bears are. I got to get special permits cause I got to go into an area that's unreachable for humans. And when do they mate? Okay. So they made it at the end of merge or during April. Okay. That's another thing. Uh, and then you got, you need to, to have your intelligence to have your info. Uh, so then you ask around and you're seeing a polar bear mailing code ship around and then you start hearing those gossip stories. Yeah, I heard that one is many wheel. That one I thought I saw a male going into the area with two females and the females don't have cubs because if they have cops, it's different story without carbs. They released the females release pheromones, uh, that which the male, uh, can resect. And they have a, this Jacob's in Oregon at the top of their pallet. And then they, they approached the females and then they meet. So once you have all that or that information, when you have the, uh, uh, schedule your permit, your logistics, everything around it, it's all the matter of just going out there hoping for the best and, and, and, and capture it.

Raymond: 22:25 Okay. Hold on. Before you go any further, there has to be more than just hoping for the best. Cause I'm sure that, especially when it comes to the location, but it doesn't mean that it's going to happen. Right, exactly. But so that was exactly what I was looking for. All of that planning was exactly what I was looking for in that answer. But now, more specifically, I want to know, how did you choose the spot that you decided to, to be in knowing that there would be polar bears that would, that would show up, if that makes sense.

Roie Galitz: 22:58 You go where the polar bears are, you don't choose, you don't choose anything. You are done

Raymond: 23:06 track these fo these polar bears until they see each other and then set up.

Roie Galitz: 23:10 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the first I had the information of after I told you everything, I've had the information of meeting for the bears. So I knew in what area, what fueled in Svalbard they're supposed to be. So, uh, that's where I had to be. That's where I had to go. And I have had amazing, amazing specialists. Top of the line specialist, uh, which I'd been working with also on the BBC film, a small bears, you know, that came up last Christmas, um, also in the u s and PBS nature. Um, so we've had all these experience and go, actually, to be honest, I'm going there again on Saturday. Oh yeah. Sorry.

Raymond: 23:58 What is, what are you hoping to get out of this trip?

Roie Galitz: 24:02 Aw, I can't, I can't tell you. [inaudible] okay. Okay. Something with like white bears, another form of white bear. Okay. I got it. I got it. Oh, it's the same boat. More of the polar bears. I've got some more behaviors and more things that I hope I'm hoping for. Uh, but you never know. Again, not nothing is certain, nothing is guaranteed. There is so much, so much uncertainty when it comes to nature to, I like photography because the animals never do what I want them to do. They do what they need to do. Okay. So it's a so many question marks. Actually. There are, there are more question marks than, than exclamation marks, but, um, I think, uh, I'm hoping for the best and uh, keep your fingers crossed as well. Uh, but I'm going back this Saturday for a one week project, uh, coming back and I'm going there again at the end of April for another project.

Raymond: 25:06 Okay. Well, very cool. Very cool. I guess that Kinda brings me to one of my next questions, which is, uh, how, how does the, the, the career side of being a wildlife or conservation photographer work? Because as a, as a wedding photographer, couples come to me, they asked me to shoot their wedding. They pay me money, I show up end of death. That's a good plan, right? Yeah. Not, not too bad, but I know that other photographers, lots of street photographers, they go out on their own. They do their own work, they shoot what they want, they come back and then they sell or license their images. So from a wildlife photography standpoint, how does, how does the career side work for you? Hey Raymond here, and if you're listening to this, it means that you are listening to the free version of today's podcast, which means that you are missing out big time.

Raymond: 25:52 You know, if you become a premium member, not only do you unlock the full interview with today's guests where they share so much more valuable information on how to become a successful photographer, but you also get access to the entire back catalog of past interviews with some of the world's most renowned and experienced photographers who open up and share how they got to where they are and what they would do if they had to start all over again today. Now, if you want to find out, become a premium member by heading over to patrion.com forward slash beginner photography podcast, or just head on over to the beginner photography podcast.com and click the link on our homepage. That's it. I hope to see you there. Yeah. Uh, [inaudible] you obviously got into the conservation side of photography to help make a change in the world, right? Like you said, for those you want to speak for those who cannot speak for themselves. So can you tell me about a time where, where you have seen one of your photos make a difference in conservation efforts?

Roie Galitz: 27:00 Well, if, first of all, it's a, it started, um, in, um, 2014 when I started seeing things for myself that are disturbing, seeing less polar bears, seeing hungry polar bears, seeing mess size. So that, that got me into that conservation aspect of photography, uh, because I felt like I've seen too much to ignore it. I seen too much to say this is not happening. And for me, a, as I said in the Ted talk a, I meant it that well, global warming was two words you just read about and hear about and suddenly there it is. It's real. Uh, so I think joining a Greenpeace, um, has became a, a really amazing opportunity and becoming their ambassadors or on their campaigns has been amazing, uh, journey. And, uh, they, I can't say this one specific image that made a whole lot of difference, but maybe, maybe for km. But, uh, there had been many, many images that have been part of campaigns and that thing I think that, uh, made a difference. There are images, uh, of, uh, the dreaming of CIS, the image of a polar bear slipping on the ice that has been featured, uh, in many, uh, medias and also my, uh, campaign for the Antarctic, which was also a really nice with Greenpeace to create the orthotic ocean sanctuary. Um,

Raymond: 28:42 can you tell me a little bit more about that? How, how does a project like that work? They have a goal to create the sanctuary and then they contact you. What, what's going through your head?

Roie Galitz: 28:53 Oh my God, yes. Yeah. Hey, that's what's going on there. Just to be a, just to say it, to set it straight, but, uh, yeah. Uh, Greenpeace has asked me if I would like to participate in that campaign and I said, absolutely yes. Uh, and uh, I gave them my material from the Antarctic. Uh, we created with the Green PC, Israel, uh, uh, wonderful videos explaining about the Antarctic Ocean sanctuary and its purpose. Uh, what's the threat and what's the solution, uh, along with other Greenpeace ambassadors or has been doing amazing work. A great piece has gathered millions of, uh, signatures on the campaign. On the petition and, uh, got the countries who are involved in the Antarctic, uh, pact to vote about the, the sanctuary. Uh, 22 out of 25 countries voted yes. Three voted no. Um, so there is the ocean sanctuary didn't, um, materialize, maybe it will in the future, but Greenpeace has made the, a organization for crit harvesting, uh, made a commitment to make a commitment not to harvest krill in the ocean or ocean of Antarctica.

Roie Galitz: 30:08 And so we did get something there was a positive outcome to that campaign as well as other campaigns, uh, in Svalbard in the North Pole to stop, uh, draining for oil and gas, uh, because that could be a huge disaster if, uh, there would be an oil spill like in the Gulf of Mexico, but in the North Pole. Uh, so that is also, uh, been a very successful campaign by Greenpeace and other, uh, organizations as well. So I think, uh, photographers, I mean, not just me, I'm one of many, uh, who are doing amazing work. Uh, photographers have our, the ambassadors I can say of nature, photographers convey a message that is much stronger than words because seeing a Hungary polar bear like the one shot by Paul Niclin last year, uh, starving the barrels and uh, and uh, and the debris, uh, get huge attention from the international community. A lot more than another article in the news cause people believe what they see. And that's what [inaudible] is.

Raymond: 31:18 So when they came to you with this idea of this sanctuary and asked you to do the campaign, kind of want to know, uh, what's like, what was their goal for you? What was the, what did they want out of the photography and how did you take what they wanted and turn it in

Roie Galitz: 31:34 to that? So first of all, I can show you the, the campaign itself. Uh, it's, um, it's a really nice campaign, very informative. And what they wanted me to show is to explain what's going on in Antarctica, what is the threat and why I did the solution. So we had to go a three stage, uh, video. And the goal is to get as many signatures on the petition as possible. Uh, so again, photography is a, it's a way to communicate. So that's, that's my, my job, uh, in this campaign. That's my goal, just to get as many, as, as many people as involved as possible because if people care, the government's care, if people don't care the government

Raymond: 32:22 all right. And they're the ones who write the checks. I get it. Yeah. So if somebody is listening right now and they really love, uh, the idea of, yeah, they definitely will be. If somebody is listening right now and they, they love the idea of, of, of going out and doing better things in the world with their camera and telling those stories, how would you recommend that somebody gets started in, in conservation efforts through photography?

Roie Galitz: 32:52 Well, I think the best way to start is as also the way I started, which is just go out there and photograph, share images and share stories. If you see some wrong being done, don't overlook, not look the other way, but photograph, share your story and share it online. If everybody talks about it, it becomes even stronger. The next phase when I, when I heard my voice wasn't strong enough, that's when I joined a Greenpeace. But there are so many good environmental of course, the weakest as well. Uh, when environmental organizations that people can join, uh, that people can donate, that people can sign the petitions, uh, because every voice counts, every image counts. And, and again, we are all in this together. Yeah.

Raymond: 33:49 It kind of just parents kind of the whole thesis of this podcast, which is just get out there and just shoot shooting jails. Yeah. You come up with something, people will like it. I love it. I love it. Okay. Now I want to talk about gear for a quick moment because a gear is something that we don't really talk a lot about on this podcast as a, um, as you know, as a professional working photographer that that a, that a photo is more than just the sum of its settings, right? But with, with wildlife photography, it's a different ball game. You have to take a lot of stuff because sometimes you're in these remote locations. So can you share what photographers need to know? Like what makes your kid different than say a portrait photographer?

Roie Galitz: 34:37 Yeah, it's heavier, but um, well I wanna I want to make a point straight first and foremost, photographers, especially wildlife photographers, but all kinds of photographers, usually when the image is not good, they blame the gear. Okay. First things first. Don't blame the gear. The gear is fine. Okay. The gear is, is super. The, the worst camera today is better than the best camera. 10 years ago and 10 years ago, there were amazing images being made all over the world. I mean, no doubt about it. So first it's not the gear. The gear is fine. Just try to work with that. While you have a bad photographer, we get bad images out of the best camera out there. So again, it's, it's not the gear. Uh, but uh, that being said, uh, you want to adopt you gear to what you shooting and not the other way around.

Roie Galitz: 35:43 Okay. So look at what you like to shoot and see how you can shoot it better. And if your gear is your limit, then you buy something new. Uh, for me, one of my favorite wildlife photography Lens is the Nikon 24 70 f 2.8. Okay. Which is, you'd say it's a portrait Lens. And why is it all about portraits a, it's about behavior. It's about getting close. It's about showing, uh, the environment as well as the animal. Okay. So first things first. I mean, try and work with, right? You have and improve your gear only once you've reached a certain limit of your own, of your own equipment. Uh, I am, uh, Gito ambassador origins, or is the tripod company. Yeah. Uh, so, uh, tripods and bags and accessories. Uh, so I'm a, their ambassador and most of the DJI ambassador. And I'm also working, uh, magic technology.

Roie Galitz: 36:47 G G tech is the Hard drives. It's professional brands. Uh, sandy skin was digital and I'm also a Nikkon a beta tester for the year. Uh, so to be honest, I'm, I get gear for free so I can choose whatever I want. Uh, so yeah, sure. Why not give me the 800mm later about. So gear, man, I wouldn't necessarily buy everything that I'm getting. I will work with one I have and not start buying unnecessary gear and stocking up, uh, when it costs so much. So you have to, you have to, to, to see where you're going and then adjust your gear accordingly and not, not the other way around. I heard people say, I got this amazing camera at a, and then there's 600 millimeter lens, but I'm, I'm photographing dogs.

Roie Galitz: 37:45 Don't need that kind of lands for dog puppy dogs and all that stayed away. I get it. Exactly. So again, you need to need to really think about what you're getting and how will it improve your photography, uh, and not just go and buy whatever and working your way around it. Sometimes my gear is not, it's not just the lenses, it's also the, the, the laptop and, and my, uh, uh, backups and the tripods and, uh, triggers, uh, remote, uh, underwater housing, drone batteries, batteries, batteries, and also clothing. Because when you shoot at times 30, one was 40 degrees, you have to have the right gear and the right gloves. And the right, uh, balaclava whatever. You've got to have your, a hand warmers, not for your hands but for your batteries. Uh, so there, there's a lot of things you think about that are not just photography. It could be a satellite phone, but it's part of my photography. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah,

Raymond: 38:52 of course. Yeah. One of the, what's the camera like on those satellite phones? Are they any good?

Roie Galitz: 38:57 Oh, okay. Oh Man. Okay. I got you. I got that four. I've got my eyes with me, so,

Raymond: 39:03 oh, there you go. Does that still work at negative 30 degrees?

Roie Galitz: 39:08 Well, the, the iPhone, the iPhone, uh, I keep it inside my suits and I get it out and I put it back in. Uh, everyone's dad. Yeah, because otherwise when it, when the battery dies, you can't turn it on unless you charge it unlike a camera batteries, which after you, you hit them out, they are full again. [inaudible] and that's fine. You gotta be really careful with your iPhone.

Raymond: 39:33 So for, for those, we kind of talked about wanting to get into conservation photography. We talked a little bit about the gear and what it takes in conservation photography. Um, what do people need to know before going into these potentially dangerous situations with potentially dangerous animals?

Roie Galitz: 39:53 Don't, uh, no. The, the big with dangerous animals and men in dangerous situations, you have to have training and knowledge. I mean, don't go into a situation, uh, that you don't know how you're going to get out of okay. In general. In life. Yeah. Okay. It's not just photography, but, uh, the, you have to learn, you have to ask, you have to s uh, to test. You have to be careful. You need to see and talk to people who are doing this because if they are doing it and they're still there, it means they're probably doing it, doing it well. Uh, so, uh, it took me, uh, myself a long time before I dared, uh, getting closer, uh, to set, set with an animals [inaudible] most animals, I still don't [inaudible] but, uh, don't do something you're unsure of and always ask if you have any question.

Roie Galitz: 40:56 And of course, uh, respect nature because, uh, sometimes things that you think are okay could create a lot of stress with the animal and a stress with the animal could be harmful for the animal or harmful for the photographer if the photographer is not careful. Uh, so don't, don't go and do crazy things unless you know what you're doing. A took me after, only after seeing hundreds, hundreds, thousands, maybe of war verses over five years, I started getting closer to them. Okay. I only even then I feel that t to read and I feel I can read their communication because when their role and Russ is stressed, it shows a certain behavior and whether he's relaxed, he shows a sudden behavior. So you have to be to know how to read this behavior and reading this behavior. It could be a matter of seconds before it can be, uh, harmful for either you or the animals because you don't want to start a stem p e yeah.

Roie Galitz: 42:03 And you don't want to be hurt, hurt as well. Uh, so again, it's a, it's a, a lot of practice and a lot of time and a lot of reading and a lot of consulting and a lot of talking to people who are doing it. So again, don't do anything you're, you're unsure of. Have you ever had a very, uh, dangerous moment that you were legitimately scared for your life and how'd you get out of it? Well, it's not a, I mean, it's not a walk in the park. Okay. But, uh, depending on which park, I mean, there are some parks, I think that more dense, but, uh, it, to tell you that I've been genuinely really scared for my life in a life threatening situation that I almost died. No, it never happened to me. Good. Because you paid attention to your surroundings. You didn't get into those situations.

Roie Galitz: 43:01 Uh, but they're, you know, they're, there are moments where I'm stretching the limits. Uh, I won't say there are, aren't. Uh, last week I was in Tanzania and I was photographing hippos and to photograph people's is, you know, hope was going to be dangerous. Okay. But I, I got low because I want to get this low angle, the same eye level as the hippo and a, and hippos can be dangerous. You have to be. Yeah. I had a guy, one of my, other than one of the rangers was standing behind me and watching over just a toward me. And in case something happens that I'm unaware of because I'm concentrating on photography. So I've got, I got my watcher and I've got my, my hippos and I've got my camera, uh, and every now and then a hippo, uh, Matt get too close or my, uh, dive and approach on the water, and then he'd get up closer.

Roie Galitz: 43:58 And you know, though they have these, uh, thick sounds, very heavy, deep sounds where you in your gut when, when the, when they're calling and, uh, of course they also the a decade, that's the word. Poop. Poop. Yeah. And, and they throwing around with their tail. Uh, they do. I felt it, but it is, they did it on me, but yeah, but it's one of the risks of the hazards of the occupation. Uh, but you know why I always, I only placed myself in that situation because I knew there was a, a, a small cliff, a one meter cliff at the edge, at the edge of the, of the ground. So I knew people's can't climb them. They can't jump. They can climb a one meter a step. Oh, that is. So that's why I felt comfortable being this close. I, you wouldn't do that if there was a shoreline, a gradual slope where they could charge and run straight at me. So that's why I felt comfortable.

Raymond: 45:10 Yeah. No, I can imagine that being on that end of a, a, of a hippo charge would be probably one of the scariest experiences that a human could experience. So I'm glad that, uh, that you paid attention to your surroundings.

Roie Galitz: 45:22 Yeah, that's fine. It, you have to have a spotter you'll have to add because somebody can surprise you where you're not expecting it, and you have to have this knowledge about what is safe and what is not safe, uh, in order to, uh, to watch yourself.

Raymond: 45:37 Yeah. Yeah. Well, Rory, I mean, you've shared so much today. You've, you've, you've given us a ton of Info and really helped out. I think for those who want to get out in nature, I spend some time with, with, uh, with wildlife and photograph to hopefully better not only their communities but the world. So again, I, I can't thank you enough for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it. Can you share with the listeners how they can get in touch or find you online?

Roie Galitz: 46:06 Sure. Uh, well we can look up Rye gallet on the Instagram or Facebook or Google. Um, and I'm there, I'm on every social media practically, uh, yet again, I feel free. I'd appreciate it. And again, thank you so much for hosting me. Uh, it's been, uh, a lot of fun talking to you and sharing my perspective and I hope you enjoy it.

Raymond: 46:32 I should have and I know that the listeners did as well. So again, Roy, thank you again so much for coming on the podcast and uh, I look forward to keeping up with you and your travels and, uh, and I'll be crossing my fingers that you don't get in front of a, a hippo stampede anytime soon. So again, man, have a, have a great day. Thank you.

Roie Galitz: 46:47 Thank you so much.

Raymond: 46:50 I got to tell you that interview, I want to, uh, go and start photographing and polar bears mating. I'm serious. I maybe, you know, not in Antarctica. I've always wanted to go to Antarctica. Um, I've always wanted to see polar bears. My logo in my photography business is of a polar bear. Um, uh, they just seem like such majestic creatures and you know, having the ability to see them close up and uh, you know, gained some sort of trust to be able to photograph them is just a really, really inspiring to me. And I really enjoyed this episode, but my biggest takeaway was definitely the, the honesty right there that Roy shared of, you know, you don't have to be quote unquote traditionally creative in order to be successful as a photographer. As I mentioned in that survey that I sent out, the 30% of you have said that you do not feel like you are creatives, you know, and, and I'm assuming that the camera is, hopefully it is what you're assuming is going to be your way into some sort of creativity and that's awesome and that is awesome.

Raymond: 48:02 But I would just, uh, pair it again that, uh, well what Roy said that you don't have to be, you don't have to be so far out there to be considered creative, right? You can use the technical skills to do something new and creative in your photography because creativity is different for every single person. And it, uh, it, it is defined, uh, in a different way depending on what, whatever it is that you are doing. So just keep it up, you know, just keep it up, put in the work, put in the time, keep practicing and you will achieve, uh, you know, happiness in your photography and you're going to get to a point to where you are doing, uh, creative work to your standards. And that is awesome. I would love to know if you are one of the 30% of people that, uh, uh, responded to the survey and some of it you don't feel like you are a creative.

Raymond: 49:00 I really want to know your specifically, your biggest takeaway from this interview. If it was that or if it was something else. So feel free, please share it in the beginning of photography podcast, Facebook group. And if you're not already a part of the beginning of photography podcast, Facebook group, we have over 1000 members of photographers just like you who are at, you know, their own a place in this journey in photography. And we all know that, uh, that nobody is, you know, at the, at the same skill level. So there's no dumb questions. There's no rudeness. It is just a community of likeminded new photographers who want to help each other out. So if you're interested, feel free to join. I would love to have you just search Facebook for beginner photography podcast, a group, and you will find it. You don't have to answer three quick questions and then I will let you in. You will, you'll get the golden ticket into the group and then please share your biggest takeaway from this interview and that is it. Okay, I am going to take off now and I will see you all again next week. How does that sound? Sounds pretty good. All right. Until next week, I want you to get out there, keep shooting, try something new and creative. I don't know. Focus on yourself and be safe. All right, that's it. I love you all.

Speaker 2: 50:16 If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.