Chris Orwig is a Portrait photographer from sunny southern California. He is known for his ability to create portraits that are truly authentic and captivating. Today I’m excited to dive in and find out more about the process of capturing the human essence in a single frame.
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In This Episode You'll Learn:
How a car accident got Chris into photography
The hardest part of photography and the technical side for Chris to learn
What a portrait photographer does
How to get great portraits
What is the goal of every image Chris takes
How much preparation goes into each shoot
How much posing Chris does
A common misconception Chris hears being taught to new portrait photographers
What an amateur portrait looks like
The one thing you need to focus on in 2020 to take better portraits
Premium Members Also Learn:
How Chris booked his first client and how it went
How Chris communicates value more than just the ole 15 mins and 4 images
How important printed products are for Chris’s photography business
Resources:
Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!
Full Episode Transcription:
Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically by Temi.com and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.
Raymond: 00:00:00 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast. Today we are taking authentic portraits. So let's get into it.
Intro: 00:00:09 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfield, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raymond interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now with you as always, husband, father, home brewer, LA Dodger fan and Indianapolis wedding photographer Raymond Hatfield. Welcome back
Raymond: 00:00:38 This episode of the beginner photography podcast. As always, I am your host Raymond Hadfield. And man, I am I'm excited this week for this week's interview. This week I actually get to talk to a personal hero of mine and it is just a, a complete, you know, joy of an interview. So if you haven't had a second to look down at the podcast timeline for how long this interview is, you'll see that it is more than an hour and a half. It is just completely jam packed, you know, and, and Chris is, it's funny, Chris is one of those people who today's guest, Chris Orwig. He's totally one of those people who whenever we talk, I always get to thinking about how long we've been friends and all the fun adventures that we've been on together and the stories that we've shared and then I snap out of it and remember, Oh man, this is the first time that I've ever interacted with Chris.
Raymond: 00:01:40 He just has that personality that just invites deep conversation, you know, so much more so than just rapid firing off questions. And we got so deep into, you know, into, into certain questions on several occasions that I actually had to throw half of my questions out simply because we just, we ran out of time. So as I said, I mean this interview is jam packed. You are going to love this and I know that you're going to feel the same way about Chris. So every week I save a portion of the interview that is focused more towards business just for premium members of the podcast. So this week, premium members are going to learn how Chris got his very first portrait session. Why no one will ever hire you to do your best work. Why Chris still gets butterflies before shoot. I do too. I gotta be honest. And how to develop your one on one rapport with your subjects and it is just perfect for introverts. So if you want to hear all of that from Chris or wig and more photography, business information delivered straight to your ears every single week, then become a premium member. You can sign up by hitting over to beginner photography, podcast.com and clicking the premium
Raymond: 00:03:00 Membership button at the top. So that is it. Let's go ahead and get on into this week's interview with Chris or wig. Today's guest is Chris Orwig, a portrait photographer from the much sunnier than Indianapolis right now, California. He has known for his ability to create portraits that are truly authentic and very captivating. And today I'm really excited to dive into find out more about kind of the process of capturing the human essence in a single frame. So Chris, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Chris Orwig: 00:03:33 Yeah, super fun to be here and fun to get a chance to chat. So thank you for having me.
Raymond: 00:03:38 Absolutely. I'm really excited for this podcast in particular for a few reasons. One because at the beginning of the year I asked members of the beginner photography podcast, Facebook group who they want to hear from and several times your name came up and I know that we had been trying to get you on the podcast and you're a very busy guy and we finally set this up. But for reason number two, I was just thinking about this the other day. It must have been a 10 no nine years ago, right after I moved to Indianapolis and decided to take photography seriously. I had no idea how to use light room. And I went on lynda.com and I searched for a Lightroom tutorial. And you yourself taught me how to use light room three. And because of that confidence that I had using light room three, I feel like I am where I am today because I was very cheap photographer and didn't want to spend any money. But my wife was like, no, just, just do it. Just dive in, spend the money, do it and you'll be happy for it. And I'm very happy that I did. And so kind of all of this is thanks to you. So Chris.
Chris Orwig: 00:04:42 Yeah. Oh that is so great. That makes me so happy. So, so I appreciate that. Yeah, and it's funny like light room through, they don't use numbers anymore. You know, they used to do that with Photoshop and Lightroom and I always wondered what would they do, like light room 33 or S, you know, like when would it end? And so now they, it's CC. But anyway, that's really fun. And that is a great thing as you know from doing your podcast to the teaching and sharing that the beauty of it and why we do all of this is those connections. And also you never know and you might help someone else out. And part of that is just because so many people have helped us out. It's a nice way to keep that circulating, you know? So
Raymond: 00:05:21 Yeah. Yeah, it's a great way to look at kind of the world that way. It's weird because when you're a kid, you know, you're always told, you know, especially now that we're around the holidays, like it's more about giving than it is receiving. And when you're a kid, you have such a limited life experience that that doesn't make any sense. Right. But as you get older and you start to see how things piece themselves together, and I've told other people this before, if I could live to like 500 years old, I would definitely do that. Just to be able to see how everything is so connected to each other. Yeah. But in this very small window that I've had on earth, I've been very fortunate to kind of how some of those
Raymond: 00:05:58 Strings work. So once again you are part of my strength.
Chris Orwig: 00:06:02 Yeah. That's great. That's great. Yeah. And there's, and it, you know, it comes to mind too, is someone was just asking me about my friend Greg, and cause I had mentioned his name and they said, well, who's Greg? And I said, well, he's the reason why I have a vocation and a career. And they're like, well, what do you mean? And it's a long winding story, but literally without him in my life, I wouldn't have any of this, you know, and, and be sitting here talking to you. So it is, it's so wonderful to have people like that and it's, it's great to, I dunno, keep that circulating, you know. And so, anyway, so that's fine. So, so I appreciate it. Yeah,
Raymond: 00:06:41 Absolutely. Absolutely. So I mentioned there in the intro that obviously you're very well known for your portraits. You, you teach about portrait photography. You've been doing it for 20 years now. Is that right? Yeah, yeah. And all of this kind of started, but from after a car accident when you were on your skateboard, correct. Can you tell me who you were before the accident and then kind of how the accident changed you into who you are?
Chris Orwig: 00:07:12 Yeah, I was much more self absorbed. I I think I saw I'd never really been injured physically, so I kind of saw injury as weakness. I saw kind of my, my worldview was like, just tough it out and get over it. And so I think then afterwards it, it gave me a new empathy, which as a portrait photographer, you kinda can't be a portrait photographer without empathy. Right. a friend of mine, Travis, put it this way, he said, you know, in, in portraiture, not in portrait, but he just said, what we want to do is we want to look so deeply at someone that we can see ourselves. So in life he was staying, but also unfortunate that so for me, when I'm photographing someone, whether it's a billionaire or yesterday I was photographing a pitcher for the Detroit tigers.
Chris Orwig: 00:08:09 A famous athlete or a little kid or homeless person is to to look and to see that person empathetically and say, while I've never been homeless, I do know what it's like to feel like I don't belong. And, and that, that lack of, or that kind of understanding or attempt to understanding is where a good portrait comes from. And same thing with baseball, like this baseball player, he's awesome. Like it was so fun, man. And I don't know anything about baseball but to begin to see him not as the idea that like that role that he, but as this person and like, well what does that mean and, and how do you handle the pressure and what, you know, I just, you find common ground. I bet. Maybe that's it, right? I mean that's what you do in your weddings too, right?
Chris Orwig: 00:09:07 You're not like, well this is bride a or, or groom, you know, 303, you know, whatever. It's like, no, this is, this is a person with dreams and hopes and aspirations and fears and family. Cause you know, all this stuff. And when you connect with them in that way, that makes good photography people photography. So anyway, bef you know, this is a really long answer but, but I think before that experience, before any kind of suffering, it's hard to make good portraits. But most portrait photographers have suffered, have leaned into their suffering, have paid attention to that. And that is where they then find light and beauty and hope and, and all of those things. And it doesn't have to be dramatic like a car accident. Sometimes it's just as simple as something difficult that's happened in life. So, so yeah. So it's made me appreciate that stuff. Does that make sense?
Raymond: 00:10:05 No, it does. Absolutely. In fact, my, my follow up question there was going to be, you know, I've never been in a car accident. You know, is, is, is good portrait photography, something that, that I could do. But I think that you kind of summed it up there at the end. We all kind of deal with things differently. And if we have found pain in anything, it's H we should be able to, to find that empathy in, in somebody else. That's really interesting. Really interesting. So what was it about because it was, and I know that you have a very long history in photography, which is why I'm kind of adding this little piece of your life, but it was your father who gave you your first camera, right? Yes, yes. Okay. So can you kind of walk me through what that camera meant for you at the time?
Chris Orwig: 00:10:49 Yeah, it was back in the era when getting a camera was a big deal. You know, you could, there was, there was no Costco to buy one from, you'd go to a camera store. And so I think that was kind of momentous, you know which I think is fun when people re discover that experience, you know, because we all have a camera in our pocket we take for granted and we kind of think it's a pretend camera, but it's actually a real camera. But then when you save up and buy a camera, you're like, I think the person who saves up and buys a camera is so excited about it. It's so, it's like this, this moment that that can, that can still kind of happen and that can really fuel your creative growth. So that's what happened for me.
Chris Orwig: 00:11:35 And I think a big part of that was that it helped me to, it gave me a reason to get out into the world. So it's a sort of a, the passport thing the camera does and then it became an instrument for collecting wisdom. It's still is, you know I've a couple of cameras sitting here, but it's still my way to, to learn about the art of living. I mean, that's everything for me. And, and you know, when I was in that particular season life, if life, there were certain lessons I was looking for. Now in this season, there are other lessons but that still continues all the way through for me. So it's kind of funny. I'm not, I'm not a photographer. Maybe in a traditional sense. You know, I kind of play the role of a professional photographer, but deep at heart, I am an amateur man.
Chris Orwig: 00:12:31 Like I just, I love it. I love the fact that like yesterday I got to hang out with this baseball player. We became friends, we're deeply connected. I gained all this life wisdom like that I would do it anyway. It's kind of a thing. And so, so yeah, it all kind of came from that, that early experience I think of like of like wow. Camera, you know. And, and that's, that's, this is kind of a tangent, but I love it. Here we go. Ready for a tangent. Cause we talked about kids before we started recording and we both have kids. We each have a kid similar age and and others, but parents will often ask me, cause I'm a photographer, they'll say, what camera should I buy my kid? And I always say, I'm the wrong person to ask. And I try to just sort of Dodge the question because I actually don't think kids should have cameras. This is totally weird. Yeah.
Speaker 5: 00:13:33 That as my son who's seven, asked for a camera for Christmas and we're really excited to hear to hear the same. [inaudible]
Chris Orwig: 00:13:38 Yeah. Yeah. And I think if, well, what if a kid has has the interest? I say go for it. And that's the same kid who ask for a violin. Like what is it about the violin? Okay, well let's explore that. But what I think burdening someone who's too young with something that's really expensive and will break, cause that's the reality of being a kid and having something. I've seen too many parents give a kid $1,000 camera, it breaks and they're just, their spirit is crashed. They feel guilty, they feel shame. They're embarrassed, you know, I don't know all these things and then they lose, lose the spark. And I don't want any kid to lose a spark. I mean, that's why in art classes, in elementary school used crayons and pencils and paints and you, you get your clothes a little dirty and it's like okay to, to experiment.
Chris Orwig: 00:14:29 And so it's not that I don't want kids to have cameras but it's more just considering is there for certain kids, there's a right time to get the camera. And at least for me, that was a little bit later in life. Like I did photography in high school. I was horrible. I mean, I've looked back at those images, they were like the worst ever. I found. I found this folder of my old photographs and I thought maybe there's some hidden gems, some hidden talent. And I was like, no, I had none. Zero. And I've always had to work for it. And it wasn't some gift from the gods. It was more searching, scratching, digging. And I had to live enough life and then get the camera. Does that make sense? So I just want kids to be kids and live life and do all that. And so, and maybe your seven year old will have a blast and it's the right time. And there are some that are a little more durable or you know, sometimes kids get Polaroid cameras. Those are really fun and still tactile and tangible. But I just want, I want kids to be creative over the long haul.
Raymond: 00:15:35 [Inaudible] So my I'm pretty sure that it's probably the same case for my son is he he has for one of those Fuji Instax cameras. Cause I, I, I have several and I take them out and use them all the time with family functions. And we have like a, I take all the Instax and like hang them on the wall in our home so they can kind of see a timeline. And he likes that idea. But I think, I think he wants the camera more just because our neighbor, his friend has the same camera. I think that's, that's really the only reason. So yeah, like you said, it's, it's diving deeper. Try to find that that, that, that reason behind it as to, as to why. But regardless, I don't think he's going to get one, but I hope that he doesn't hear this episode.
Chris Orwig: 00:16:18 Okay. Even that though, he, you know, with those cameras there, they're getting a feel for the artifact of the print. I mean, I think that's beautiful and wonderful. It's more maybe the kids a little older cause then once they have the camera, then they're going to learn all the software and it's not necessarily bad and I think certain kids should do it. But I don't know. I just I may, I'm just going to flip to a different subject. I'm a surfer, right? I live in a surf town, so plenty of surf dads push their kids in the surfing really hard, too young. I have number of friends is happened. The kid then wipes out, hits their head on the surfboard and they will never surf again in the rest of their life. And I just think that's a bummer, you know? And so as parents there's more like w with my kids, it's more like, let's, let's give them opportunities and let's help them explore things. But I don't want to shove them into anything. So I don't want to be the photographer dad that's like doing that. If they come down here and want to grab one of my cameras and play with it, I'm all, I'm game, you know, but I'm not gonna push it.
Raymond: 00:17:25 Oh man, this is totally off subject. But I kind of struggled with that right now with with us on Charlie who's in a piano because he loves to play by himself. So we got him in piano lessons cause he asked for it. And now it kind of seems as if like piano lessons are a struggle for him. Like it's just like, Oh, it's a chore. You know, like he's got to do this. But because he has those piano lessons, we're, we got, you got to go practice, you got to go have we go. So yeah, that's really interesting. But I've thought the same thing about photography because I don't, I don't want to push them into something that just because I'm interested in it. So that's a really interesting perspective. But I'm just
Chris Orwig: 00:18:05 Your ranch. My mom forced me to take piano my whole life and I'm so grateful. So there's that side too, right?
Raymond: 00:18:11 Oh man. Yeah. I don't know. You know, it doesn't make it easier. It doesn't, no, it doesn't. What do we do as parents? I don't know. Why can't there just be like one book on how to parent perfectly seriously? If you write that book, tell me I would buy a millionaire. Yeah. So, so when you first got back that camera, you were really excited to go out and take these, take these photos. Did you start with portraits or did you just start with whatever you found?
Chris Orwig: 00:18:37 Yeah, I think like most photographers, and I'm sure a lot of folks listening can relate to this. When you kind of get the bug, you photograph everything, you know, you're like, Oh my gosh you know, bottle cap a hubcap, a sign of leaf. So I did that and, and more just had no intent on, I didn't even really know why I was doing that. I think it was, it was just a, just a response to, you know, a creative spark and you're like, I'm just gonna follow that, you know, wherever that goes. And then eventually, as I moved my way through photography and tried out a lot of different things, I kept coming back to the stuff that I love most. It's always related to people. So I, I would say things like, you know, there's a lot of beautiful places to travel to, or wonderful places in the world to live, but it's always the people that make the place.
Chris Orwig: 00:19:32 And so it's like, Oh, that's like, like a photograph of like, I'm just gonna make this up cause I've never been there. Greece is amazing, but I wouldn't hang it on my wall unless me and my aunt who's a painter, who paints in Greece and I photographed her and she's small in the frame, and then there's that landscape with those dome roofs and the water. I would love that picture. Does that make sense? So I'm sort of paying attention to that intrinsic, like what do I actually love? I love landscapes. I love travel. I mean, I love food, I love sport, I love all these things, but ultimately that and then I also realize I'm a real one-on-one guy so I can do the whole, like have a bunch of people over to our house and have a backyard barbecue. But I, in that situation, I always thrive when I have the one on one conversations. Does that make sense? And in portraiture is a real one-on-one type of photography. Versus I would say weddings for you, you do one on one, but you also have to do a lot of group stuff.
Raymond: 00:20:34 There can be a lot of that. Yeah, for sure. For sure. So when, when you is the question that you're asking yourself when you first got started, would I hang this on my wall? Like is that the
Chris Orwig: 00:20:45 Yeah. No, no, that wasn't, that wasn't that. It was it was I think more maybe more, what do I need? It was may probably out of neediness. It was out of healing. It was out of, and I think for some people that's why they go into landscape. Their life is cluttered and complicated and they get in the landscape and it's just like peace and serenity. And so the excuse to kind of photograph the landscape is really an excuse for healing.
Raymond: 00:21:15 I had never thought about it like that. And you know what's interesting is that like every landscape photography group on Facebook is just like nothing, but like the most technical like has to be perfect. Like as almost as I always feel as if they're like introducing more chaos than there needs to be in a photo. So that's a really interesting way to look at it as if as if they need that communist out in nature, but then once they get back, they have to reintroduce that chaos to, to create something that they're comfortable with. I don't know. I'm just totally speculating.
Chris Orwig: 00:21:44 No, it could be, or it could be something just about the yeah, the duality of photography too, right? In the S in all, all forms of photography where you with a portrait, you, you want someone to look good, but the same time you don't, you know, like if I like a fortunate of you smiling right now, just to be like, all right, you know, that's fine. You, you look like a happy guy, but if I want, I would want something deeper. But I also wouldn't want you crying. You know what I mean? So I think in, in, in landscape photography too, you do need that technical precision, you know, and Anzel Adams, obviously it was all about that, but with emotion, you know, so technique without emotion is flat. Non-Interesting emotion without technique is also, to me, kind of, it's just so abstract. It's uninteresting, you know? So there's, I think it's the duality of, of the nature of photography. Right.
Raymond: 00:22:37 Wow. This is getting deep real quick. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. As I was saying before we got on, this isn't a very technical podcast. We don't talk too much about like shutter speed and aperture and ISO and stuff. So this is, this is exactly the kind of stuff that, that really interests me because we're just so different as, as people, you know that I know that somebody right now is listening and thinking like that is it, that is the thing that I need right there and that it's really gonna change the way that they shoot that they shoot. So but kinda exploring more of that technical side of things. When you first started photography, it was with film, it was just shooting the things that you saw in front of you was what was the hardest part about photography and maybe the technical side for you to, to, to learn and understand?
Chris Orwig: 00:23:28 Yeah. The hardest part when you first said that before technique, I, I, what came to mind instantly with some negative feedback I got, like, I, I shot these photographs I was so excited about, I felt like I felt like I poured my soul into them. I felt like I accomplished something heroic, you know? I mean, I was like, the guy ran his first marathon arms up just yes, this, you know, and I showed them to someone who is, who is a really accomplished photographer. And he said, huh, I created photographs like that when I first started out. And I was just like, Oh, you know, I dunno, probably curse word flashed through my mind, you know what I mean? I just felt so hurt. And so I think the hardest thing was that, you know, it's staving off initial feedback and I'm sure people listening get that too because the reality is you have to S you know, your initial, your initial efforts let's go to our kids for a second.
Chris Orwig: 00:24:25 You know, they bring home the drawing water color crayon or something and where it's like, yes, this is amazing and we need that as humans. We need our sketches to be celebrated. And so not having that and kind of feeling isolated in that way. That was hard. As far as the camera technical side goes, I've always been a minimalist and my technique is, is laughably simple. So it's aperture priority mode, shoot at a shallow depth of field. So I always go as low as possible. I've never bought a lens that was, had an aperture setting of higher than two eight that I've ever liked or kept. I've always sold those. So I'm always shooting really shallow. So I abs your priority really shallow. And then if I need to change my exposure, exposure, compensation. So, and I taught at the super technical school where people would say, if you don't shoot on manual mode, there's something wrong with you.
Chris Orwig: 00:25:17 Like it was like you are ashamed, you are belittled, you know, and, and I just stuck with it. I'm like, I'm not going to let the technique side phase me, you know? And I think the iPhone obviously or mobile photography has done that. If people really stopped to think about it, it's like the first Kodak brownie camera, which their tagline was, you push the button and we'll do the rest. And so that's all we do now. And, and there's liberation to that. And so so technically I strangely I didn't have a tough time with the camera cause I just use simple settings. It was more being around people who are really good photographers and then having high goals for myself that I wasn't hitting. There are times when I volt wept after a photo shoot where I photograph someone important to me or just I knew that this was the only chance and I missed the shot.
Chris Orwig: 00:26:15 And I just will go through the images, not like, Oh that's too bad. I, you know, I missed focus or my exposure composition or something wasn't right. Or I'm just like, I, I just, I blew it. I missed the moment. I, I lost that. So, so so I dunno, why did I say that? But I think maybe just that, it, that it, it matters to me and I think it matters to those listening, you know, that's why we do photography. It matters. We wouldn't it if we didn't care about it. And so the thing I always say, you know, tell people about that is yeah, you just going to have to shoulder the weight of a lot of disappointment from other people. You know, you're going to cross the finish line like, yes, my first marathon. And someone's going to be like, Oh, but you only did it in five hours or something.
Chris Orwig: 00:27:02 And you're like, I don't care. Do you understand? Like I used to not even be able to run a mile, but and just that, that photography, and I think that's why podcasts and things like this are so great is when you, when you connect with the community, you realize, Oh, we're all in this together and we're all learning and there's so much to learn and there's, and we can celebrate each other and that it isn't competition. And that bad pictures aren't, aren't, it's not a failure. It's more of, okay, let's learn from that. And even crying about missing a photograph, that's probably a great thing to have happen. Because that means that you care enough about it. If you just are apathetic, then you probably won't be a good starter for
Raymond: 00:27:43 Yeah, no, I agree with that. I agree with that. So in your own words, what would you say is kind of the, the, the job description of a portrait photographer? Is it simply having empathy and using it to see somebody?
Chris Orwig: 00:27:58 Yeah, I would say first and foremost, it's not the picture. It's always about connecting with the person. Someone who's willing to have their portrait made is willing, you know, to be vulnerable and honest and real. Because it's not fashion. I mean, I think there are fashionable portraits, there are headshot portraits, but a portrait kind of in the pure sense of the word, I think is, is a little bit of a revelation. Little bit of honesty. So it's just honoring that person really, and just, and just creating that space. And I would say it's similar for, let's say if, if I'm, I was in your town for some reason. I said, Hey, I'm, I'm going through a tough, tough patch, a rough patch in life. Can we go to coffee? I think your role would be to basically say, sure and listen, you know, and just create the space for, for a friend to talk.
Chris Orwig: 00:28:54 And if you are able to reflect back something like what I'm hearing you saying is that these three things are really difficult. What I would probably say is, Oh my gosh, like you nailed it, you know, equivalent of you nailed the portrait. Like my wife's gonna love this image. You know? And whenever there's something like that, when the, when the person says someone close to them will like the photograph, that's when I think the image works. It has to look like them and the truest sense of the word. But more than that, it's just, it's just being a human. It's, it's a, it's, it's caring for them wherever they are. And sometimes people I've found where they are is they're not ready or willing to go deep. That's fine. You know, sometimes I'm that white, sometimes I just need to be shallow.
Chris Orwig: 00:29:40 You ask me how I'm doing, say fine. And that's a lie and I need to honor that lie. You, you know what I mean? Of course. Yeah. So, so I'm good. Wait, can I tell a workshop story, which is, this is a fun one. Okay. So I'm in a workshop teaching workshop and I have this person I invite in to photograph and he is a Broadway performer. Awesome guy. Just super talented, kinda handsome, striking musical, you know the whole thing, right? He's one of these great people and I'm kind of talking about how we can create strong portraits in a simple way. He's actually on the cover of my book. Let me see if he, I don't know if you can see that, but it's that, that guy right there. And I'm just trying to get to know him, asking him about his life and where he's from and his family.
Chris Orwig: 00:30:26 And at one point he talks about is his mom having ms. And I say you know, wow. W with a mom who has ms, you know, what's that like it or you know, just kind of an open ended question. And he pauses and he says it's really hard. And he starts to tear up. And one of my workshop attendees said as like, the tears are literally about to like fall out of his eyes, says, what was your favorite Broadway show to performance? And she, she was just so uncomfortable with that emotion. He was kind of like cats or I don't know what he said. You know what one of the ones that he'd been the default answer. Yeah, yeah. And then later we talked about it and she said, I felt like you were manipulating him. And I said, yeah, yeah. And I said, well, let's talk about that because I asked open ended question.
Chris Orwig: 00:31:20 I could have said, you know, what, what's it like having a mom with ms? You could have said, you know, it's difficult, but the thing is, I love my mom. He could've, he could've answered that way, but he, for some reason in that moment was being very vulnerable. And I think as a portrait photographer, my job isn't to like, you know, if he says it's really difficult for me to say, well how difficult, like really, you know, show with your eyes how painful it is to have a ma, you know, a mom with this horrible disease. But if he's going to say that, just give him some time and say thank you and say take a breath and then create a portrait now you know, it could create a meaningful portrait. And so I think it's the honoring of that space. That's what the portrait photographer does is they, they create space and they don't manipulate because that's, and that's why I'd go to the coffee thing like a few and I went to coffee. You wouldn't manipulate the situation to be like, well, how bad was your dark night of the soul? You know, you, you would, for me, you would say, well, tell me about it. How's it going? Or what was that like? Or what are, what are the difficult things? So I think that's what makes great portraits is that kind of creating space, being open and honoring that person. So yeah,
Raymond: 00:32:43 So, so I love, I love that example and I'm thinking about going to a coffee shop with you and how much I would love that. And obviously being able to, to chat through your story. If you ever come to Indianapolis or we go to imaging this year, if you want to imaging this, I'm going to imaging, let's make that happen. Let's make that happen. So, so when you have a, a chat with somebody in front of them, it's easy to commiserate with them, right? And empathize and say, Oh man, that is tough. But when it comes to a portrait, you know, so in this situation that you had where he says, man, it's really tough, my mom, how would you, I don't want to say use that information, but how does that change the portrait that, how does that change the outcome of the portrait, if, if, if, because earlier you said, you know, you don't want to be like, no, tell me with your eyes that it's tough, you know? So how does that affect it?
Chris Orwig: 00:33:35 Yeah, I think you know, and that happens to be like a difficult situation. Example. There's other, I think, you know, situations maybe where let, let me go to I'm going to go to photographing Kelly Slater. He's a world champion surfer, famous guy, you know, in, in, in that photo shoot. He's, I got to know him and he said, Chris, I'm kind of embarrassed that most of my life. I confused the idea of Kelly Slater and the person of Kelly Slater. Wow. Yeah. Which is like, it's kind of like junior high all over again, right? There's this idea of who we are. Like, people think you're this person, but then there's who you really are. Do I play the person, not just junior high, maybe a lot of life. Do I play the person they want me to be or do I be really me?
Chris Orwig: 00:34:21 So I think when there's something like that's revealed, it's you go there and you talk about identity and then I share as well. So, so there has to be a reciprocal thing. So I talk about my own identity. So it's not like, wow, you're weird or you're a celebrity. So I can't relate to that. You know, it's like, Oh my gosh, like I totally get it. And you, so anyway, when that those emotions come up, I think it's that. And then how that affects the picture is just that mutuality, that collaboration of you know, or even just gratitude, like like with that, like, I, you know, his name's Bryce is priceless. Like, thank you for being willing to go there and share that. I mean, it's so funny in life, especially with life and success, it's easy to just emphasize our successes and all the cool plays you've been in and shows.
Chris Orwig: 00:35:15 And for me as a photographer, it's easy to emphasize all the good stuff. But I gotta tell you, you know, like, I didn't say this in this moment, but something like this could happen is like right now I feel so isolated and kind of lonely because of all that success. And then you could talk about that and then you could say, okay, okay, let's, let's take a breath, let's get let's do a portrait. And then I would have him look down, take a breath, and then look back. And all of those layers would be present in the image. And I think probably the same thing is true in wedding photography. The times when I have done weddings, it's like all the layers and preparation is present in everyone who's there. So much has built up to that scene. And that's what makes it good.
Chris Orwig: 00:35:59 It's not just like a pretty picture and pretty dresses and pretty flowers. Like those pictures are easy. Or a handsome person onset. You photographed a handsome person, you know, it's like or beautiful woman. And he was like, ah, kind of shallow, right? And so looking for layers. So I guess, I don't know if that answers the question, but letting all that stuff come into the image but not overpower it. Here, here's the, here it is for me. I, I sat in on an acting one. Oh, one class my friend teaches, he teaches the college level. And I said, I was like, bro, can I like come to class one day? He's like, sure. And so there I was and I thought this, cause I'd never taken an acting class. And he said the most profound thing, they were working on emotions and he was, he was teaching them that when you need to be angry as a character or whatever it is, you need to feel 10 a level, zero to 10.
Chris Orwig: 00:36:48 You need to feel anger at level 10. But you can only give us like a level seven because overacting or bad acting is 10. And then Brad Pitt, he'll show you. He's angry, he's giving it to you at a two. It's like the subtle way, his eye moved or something and you're like, Oh my gosh. Like it just conveyed like a million things. Bad actors, bad portraits are always overdone with emotion. And so trying to, you know what I was saying, even with a tough motion, allow it sometimes to get there, but then reel it in, take a breath, settle a little bit. And maybe there'll be a time when I photograph someone who's weeping. I've never done that yet. A lot of those pictures I actually, if there is heavy emotion, I don't share them. Because I feel like I need to honor the moment.
Chris Orwig: 00:37:44 Unless the person kind of says, I don't even ask them. I just don't share it, you know? Same thing. If we went to coffee and you shared something deep about your life, I wouldn't like it's my turn. Yeah. Or posts on Instagram like, well, so-and-so told me that he really rustles with this topic. You know, it's like, so anyway, I do think there's also a sacredness is maybe what I'm getting at as, as portrait photographers, we are entrusted with story and we need to treat that as sacred cause I think it is. And then also be be mindful of when and where and how to share it. And that some stories, even though it's a great picture, doesn't give you justification to share. Wow.
Raymond: 00:38:31 Oh man. That that line right there really, really hits
Raymond: 00:38:36 Home. I think as a wedding photographer we're always trying to come up with ways, you know, what am I right for captions for social media and what do I put here and what do I put there? And there's been times where, you know, you go to a wedding and there's a lot of stress and maybe there's some family drama and that comes through in the photos. But ultimately at the end of the day, they still get married and they had a good time or at least it appears that way. Right? So you kind of want to share that. Like, even though there was a buildup, it all turned out well. But you know, now I've, I've, I've often thought like I shouldn't even like this is just the cheap way out. This is just like, Oh yeah their wedding day was very tough but they got through it. They, they got married, they had fun and then I should really look deeper into that cause that's not really my story to share. Right. It's their story.
Chris Orwig: 00:39:24 It is their story to share. And if they shared it it would probably be funny or beautiful or of course you know like cause they would be like you wouldn't, you will not imagine, you know, these five things went wrong. And then this and then I had a total meltdown. Cause if someone says let's, let's just say I'm going to say wedding my own. If I say on my own wedding day, I had this whole meltdown and I realized, you know, and I tell that story, it's people are going to be captivated. But if someone else tells a story, like Orwig had this meltdown, you know, like
Raymond: 00:39:54 Not only am I thinking, wow, that guy is crazy, but now I'm not going to trust this guy with any stories of mine. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chris Orwig: 00:40:02 So storytelling. Yeah. And storytelling. I heard someone, this national geographic photographer talk about it. She was asked what, how do you, what is, what is story in one word? And she said connection. And I thought, I think that's true. I think if I had to distill story, it's, it's, cause if you don't connect to the, to the story, whether it's a Disney story or a photographic story it's, it's, there's no connection. There's just no nothing. No, no. Nothing's resonating. Nothing's there. And so that's, you know, just trying to figure out how do we connect and then how do we share that and how and when and wide. And that to me is the beauty of fortunate. And then meanwhile, the portrait photographer or any kind of photographer, you learn these lessons, like in weddings, even, you learn, like, man, I photographed a wedding recently.
Chris Orwig: 00:40:48 And the, the father of the bride, you know, he gay, he got up to give his talk and I have three daughters. And I was like, okay, I'm probably about 15 years away from giving that talk or more, I don't know. But I was like, I wanna I want to be like that guy, you know? Like he just sat an example I'd never experienced and I, and I just thought, Oh my gosh, I got to journal about this. What was it? How did he talk, you know, everything. So I think the, the photographer not only is able to create pictures but gains wisdom and that's the beauty of why we do this thing. And same thing, if you photograph a tree, I mean the photography really photographs a tree really thinks about branch and leaf and Leafs that fall and how trees are always growing and roots and the root systems and you know, because they're just sitting there kind of listening to the tree almost and getting to know it and they gain things that you wouldn't gain if you just walk by a tree. You know, I think poets probably gain a lot to writers cause they really look and listen. So anyway, that's, that's the beauty of it. That's why we do that.
Raymond: 00:41:51 So, so when it comes to that connection though, when it comes to storytelling, right, and gaining that connection, how do you ensure that when you show up, you're able to make that connection and capture the portrait that you want to take? Or I guess, let me know.
Chris Orwig: 00:42:04 Yeah, no, I like that.
Raymond: 00:42:06 Is that a, do you go into a situation having a preconceived idea of what the portrait is going to be? Or do you let it organically arise?
Chris Orwig: 00:42:15 Yes. and it's, you're so good at keeping me on track by the way, the soundtracks. Amazing. Cause I'm going all over the place. It's really fun to talk. But yeah, I I do think preparing ourself is, is a huge part of, of portraiture, meaning there's a term in yoga and I don't practice yoga. I've done it a few times, but I love the term which is Nama stay. And the one definition I've heard of that there's a lot but one that I like is the light in me recognizes the light in you and that there's a lot of other traditions and history or you know, ideas behind that. We project reality out into the world basically what we see what's inside of us, you know, and so whatever's inside of us is essentially what we notice in others. And I mean I think the simple example of that is you can be in a really bad mood or feel have just received horrible cause I, cause I do books right?
Chris Orwig: 00:43:08 Let's say I just received a horrible book review and I can walk past a friend who's just stoic, no expression and I can be like, what is that guy's problem? Like what? Like why is he so upset with me but has nothing to do with him? I could have then just received the best news in the world, maybe just got this huge job and I'm so excited or something fun happened. I see the same friend with a stoic expression. I'm like, man, he's so calm and still like I want to be like that, right. Has nothing to do with him. It's all about me. So the self preparation for a portrait photographer is huge. It's like getting, getting all those things to calm down, all those crazy voices in your head, which have do a technique and mastering your techniques or you're like, okay, I have a vision for what I'm going to do, how I'm going to shoot, what lenses.
Chris Orwig: 00:43:51 If I bring a whole bag of lenses and I'm kind of like, I don't know, and this then that's, I'm too, I'm too confused to even see the picture. Right. I also have to have, I want to have some idea about the person. I want to have some sense of their, their spirit or their perspective or their character. If I don't have anything, which happens a lot, I photograph strangers all the time. I look for little threads. Little threads might be something like photographing someone and say and also I should say, vision for me is always a strong character portrait. And so what I mean by that is this isn't flashy. This isn't sexy. This isn't fashion, this isn't this isn't journalism journalist would step away and just let the person walk by. I'm engaging and I'm trying to create something there and, and what I want as a carer, some kind of characteristic, something genuine, something honest, something true.
Chris Orwig: 00:44:47 So yes, there's the vision. But if I don't know the person, I don't know what the character is. I don't know what is honest. I don't know what is true. So I just look for little threads by way of questions which can simply be like photograph someone. Two days ago it was like, ah, he's got a little tattoo right here, a moon, half moon. And I was like, ah, interesting tattoo. Like what's the story? There's always a story. Always, always. You know, some of them are great, some of them aren't. And it didn't, she, she didn't want actually want to tell a story. She was like, I got it with someone. It's, you know, and she just, I was like, Oh, cool. And so I tried something else, you know, you know where are you from? How long have you lived here at church?
Chris Orwig: 00:45:30 Just those kinds of things. And you get these little pieces. And I guess, I mean maybe it's more particular story I was photographing at this event. I'm sponsored by Sony. It was a Sony event. They had models there that you could photograph to test out cameras. The models are decked out, fashionable, you know, they're kind of striking, you know, like an intimidating to me is a portrait photographer. Cause I'm like, wow, this person's, I don't know. So striking. And I, and I also know from being a teacher, the more beautiful, more striking more you admire someone, usually the worst, the photograph because you think that because they're beautiful or handsome, I'll create a good photograph. And then you don't think like a photographer and your skill level drops. You're kind of relying on them to make the picture for you. So anyway, there I am, this person and she's really tall and I just start talking to her.
Chris Orwig: 00:46:27 I kind of mentioned, I have three daughters and named their ages. And I was like, gosh, you're really talks. I noticed I had to kind of tip toe to capture the portrait. And I said, when did you hit your height? Where you're young? And she was like, Oh, I was like sixth grade. And I said, was it hard? Oh, you can imagine the names people called me. It was horrible. But then when sports came along, it was amazing. She kind of lit up. She was this person, right? And I was like, Oh, what sports? I was like, wow, there's volleyball and in that, you know, and I said, Oh, do you still play? She said, no, I broke my back. I was playing college volleyball, broke my back, got dropped from my parent's insurance plan, and now I have to come up with a way to pay for all my medical bills. So I'm modeling. And I was like, Oh my God,
Speaker 5: 00:47:08 Whoa. I just learned a lot about this person more than, than just like, this is a beautiful person who's here to be in front of my camera. And that's it. Yeah. And so with that, it
Chris Orwig: 00:47:17 Did I have a vision for like a character portrait of a backstory of a model who had her back broken and now is trying to put, you know, pay for medical bills. No, I had no clue. And I don't think we can ever know these, these kind of invisible stories, so to speak, but I search for them, you know, just, they're really simple questions and if they don't want to talk, that's fine. But she offered that. I said, wow, that's heavy. You know, I, I get that. That's a tough thing. And it, you seem like you're someone who, who has overcome a lot of adversity. Let's, you know, think about that for a second. How, how, what, who, who, how, what did I say? I said something like, well, think about people who have helped you overcome this adversity. Close your eyes, think about them, and then come back and look at my camera and it's like, bam.
Chris Orwig: 00:48:02 Portraits like mind blowing. It's so good. You know what I mean? Like, I am just like, Oh my gosh, you just gave me this gift of like, of overcoming adversity and I want overcome adversity. And you know, I'm just like so excited and I'm here. It is a fashion model, right? And so I think that is the art or arc of good portrait shirt, at least for me. And that's the stuff that I enjoy and that's where I'm like, wow, I learned a lot about how quickly I judge people just by their looks or their Heights. And how I need to remember, we all have stories and how I also am just grateful to the camera that it, it, it taught me you know, gives me these little gifts of wisdom, you know, like, like so anyway, so there you have it. So I have a vision. Yes and no.
Raymond: 00:48:52 Yeah, no, no, no. That's, that, that, that absolutely makes sense. So but I want to know let's go back to your first portrait session, right? Say your first paid client. Okay. Did you find that you have the same level of interaction? Or did this, was this something that grew over time and how did it turn out?
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Raymond: 00:49:43 Change you. There you go. Oh man. Yeah, absolutely. That, that's, that's one of those things that is so powerful to learn. And once you experience that firsthand is when I feel like you can truly, you can truly become the photographer that you're meant to be, if that makes sense.
Chris Orwig: 00:50:05 I think that is it. I think, and I think the, the pay just allows you to be more of yourself, right? And if the pay doesn't, let's say, you know, you're kind of, you know what I mean? More of yourself like it. I think it's like any job that we get maybe in life, but when you, when the pay kind of cause pay is just energy. It's just like now I get to do more of this thing and if I'm getting to do more of the thing that I truly love and people, it resonates with people and the results resonate, everyone wins. But if I'm getting paid to do this thing that isn't really me and I'm kind of faking it, you can pull it off for a little while, but eventually it all falls apart. And so that's where I, I, cause I see students do that.
Chris Orwig: 00:50:50 I see them, you know, get so excited or, or get overwhelmed or whatnot. And, and maybe what I mean by that is my first paying job or any paying job, I'm still dreadfully nervous every time. I mean, I don't know why I feel like I should be over it by now, but I am not. No, I'm thinking like, like I, I keep thinking like I might blow this, I might totally not get the shot. You know, there's no guarantee photography. There's never a guarantee. It doesn't matter how much of a quote master of the craft you are, there is no guarantee. And I just have learned to lean into that. That's okay. And if I'm photographing someone who I am really, really nervous to photograph like a famous person, I try to not be impressed by fame, but sometimes I am, because, you know what I mean?
Chris Orwig: 00:51:37 Like some famous people I don't really care about, but then there's those ones where I'm like, Oh my gosh, my whole life, if I could meet one person, it's this person. Who is it? Well I, the first one that came to mind right now, as you said, that was bono from the band. Youtube. Yes, yes. But I, I think like if it was that I don't know, he's kind of a down to earth person too, but if whatever person it was and I, I, there's times where I say, I just got to tell you I'm totally nervous because I've, I mean, I know this is so nerdy and I know you get this all the time, but I've just, I've admired you my whole life and the moment's finally here and I just don't want to blow it. And, and usually people respond to that like, ah, don't worry about it man.
Chris Orwig: 00:52:19 I like this. We got this. And then like when they say we got this, they're basically now your teammate, they're actually going to give me something that I couldn't have created if I was trying to just like act all cool. Like, Oh yeah, like I'm cool guy and I don't, you know, so anyway, the point being is I'm being honest with that. As those things happen, it's a great way to do it, you know? And I'm sure weddings are like that too, where, I mean, you can just cause I'm thinking of weddings I photograph or whatever people photograph, you know, there's times where like something's overwhelming just going to a wedding. It's like, Hey, I gotta just tell you right now, this is so overwhelming. The music is so loud right here. I feel like we're trying to create romantic pictures, but it's just so hard for me to do this. Do you guys have any thoughts? And there'll be like, I felt the same way. Let's walk over to that other tree over there just like 20 feet away from the speaker. I know we told you beforehand we want it here, but let's go over there and now you're collaborating and you went,
Raymond: 00:53:19 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've never personally been in that situation, but I could see how how that could be beneficial. Just cause again, it can be stressful on our wedding day and it's always hot in the reception. And once they walk outside they're like, Whoa, this feels wonderful. This happened to me just two weeks ago where it was outside. It was like literally subzero, like minus 30. Oh my gosh. Or not minus three degrees, but it was, it was 30 degrees, so it was below zero. And there in the reception it was very hot, very warm. And when I asked him to come outside, they both walked outside and like, Oh, this is wonderful. Like this is fantastic. And you're like, it is below freezing right now. What do you mean? This is fantastic. But it's just that time away and their own personal experience that they bring to that, which is, which is great.
Raymond: 00:54:05 But speaking of personal experience I got, I got a technical question for you and this isn't, we don't talk about this much on the podcast, but I want to talk about your switch to Sony. You know, you talked about being an ambassador for Sony, but for years you were shooting cannon. Yes. And so in the beginning of photography podcast, Facebook group, I see a lot of posts from new photographers asking, you know, I don't like my one camera. What's the best camera set up? Right. And I think on like what they're asking them, I think what they're looking for is that they're not happy with the images that they're taking and they're hoping that it's purely the camera's fault and that once they switched to a new system, they'll be taking much better photos. But as a professional or in your words, the professional amateur.
Chris Orwig: 00:54:54 Yeah, yeah. I'll tell him, embrace that. And I as the amateur thing, you know, the word obviously means love and friendships. So it's like someone who loves it, but yes, go ahead. Yeah,
Raymond: 00:55:04 Close in. Exactly. What goes into that decision of switching brands for you?
Chris Orwig: 00:55:10 Yeah, that was huge for me because I had so much gear and mostly as all of us photographers know, you don't buy all your gear at once, so you buy, you buy the camera and then you save up for that one and the lens and then that one. Then eventually years later someone looks at your drawer full of gear and they're like, Oh my gosh, you know, how did you do this? And it's like, well, it took me 10 years, you know, or whatever. So I had all of that. And, and more than anything, I had this comfort, you know, just this, I didn't like the gear. I think gear should disappear. There should be no awareness or thought process related to gear. It should just kind of become invisible, kind of become you know, let's just go to music. It's like the person playing the guitar isn't like, well this is such and such a brand guitar.
Chris Orwig: 00:56:04 They're thinking musically, they're not thinking about the gear or the mic or the amp or they're, I mean, they did all that work and they know all that so intimately that by the time they're actually creating the music, they're onto the musicality of it, not onto the technical side of it. So one of the things I think about with that, and I'll answer question in a roundabout way, is, is first of all, like any camera that you just walk into a store close your eyes and hold your hand out and grab a camera is good enough. I mean, like deer right now is so amazing. It's ridiculous. So it's all good enough. And this is true of all the mobile phones we've had at this place. I mean my kids have old mobile phones, but they're still good enough. Those have still captured images that have been published in national geographic in our museum.
Chris Orwig: 00:56:48 So gear is good enough. I mean that like, like let's just get that out of the way. Then second, I think it really is about finding something that you feel sort of connected to in the same way. Let's go to guitars for a second and imagine if you don't play the guitar, imagine you go to the guitar shop and there is a wall with 30 guitars on it. They all kind of look the same. And they're acoustic guitars. I mean they basically have six strings. They have different sort of shapes. They have different wood. They're made out of the rock. But what happens with guitarists is they'll pick up guitars and they'll play a song on it and he wants to try another one. Then they'll kind of find one where like, wow, I can't quite articulate why, but I like this one. And so I think with, with camera gear, I'm kind of a non technical person when it comes to gear.
Chris Orwig: 00:57:39 I'm asking is do I like it? Does it feel right? And obviously that has to be technically amazing. Obviously image quality is crazy important. You know, all those kinds of things are in there. And so part of it for me, it took me I think almost three years to make the switch. A lot of people make the switch like overnight. I'm just like, Oh my gosh, I had two cameras, you know, and then I kinda got to the tipping point and eventually kind of sold everything off and went to the other other thing or went to Sony. But the, the so anyway, I'm just, the reason I'm saying that is if you're considering making a switch, don't feel the need to rush it. Rent something, test it. Cause everything is different in your hand than it is online.
Chris Orwig: 00:58:34 Does it matter how many reviews you read? There's always the negative reviews. There's always a positive. You just have to experience that. And then what it is for me, I mean kind of getting to the brass tacks, why the heck would I switch going? Mirrorless means I can shoot back light and not fry my eyes. And I love backlight. And people who shoot backlight without mirrorless means they're actually magnifying the sun into their eye, even if they just catch the edge of the sunshine and they're not directly backlight. And that's really bad, really bad for your eyes. So while on a, on a mirrorless camera, you're looking at an LCD screen and so you could literally point the camera straight at the sun and it wouldn't affect your eyes as long as you had one eye closed and one eye on the camera. You know what I mean?
Chris Orwig: 00:59:18 Yeah, totally. Which is the way most of us shoot I think. Yeah, good point. So that I love and then the size and then the other thing is the focus. What I find, I got really good at shooting Shiloh and I like shout up the field and with, with Canon I think I could get probably two or three out of 10 shots tack sharp when I'm shooting it. Really, really shallow depth of field. And now with my Sony stuff, I mean this sounds exaggerated but nine or 10 out of 10 shots are sharp and I actually don't even focus anymore. And it, it first it was so disappointing. It is so funny. But cause I, it took me a decade to get really good at focusing and important shirt cause when you're photographing people, it's all about the eyes for me. And you have the, you know, this little teeny slice of focus.
Chris Orwig: 01:00:03 So I earned it. Like I had the skill and then when I went to Sonia I was like, that skills are irrelevant. Like that. Like, come on you guys kind of like, I was like, the guy was like, when I was in school, I used to walk both, you know, uphill both ways. Now your kids ride electric scooters or, or you know, or you ride snowmobiles. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? And I was like, but then once I got over that initial ego element, you know, where it's like loss of ego there I was like, this is, this is actually a paradigm shift for me because there have been times where my emotion, I'm really, you know, let's say I like I've mentioned, I cried after a photo shoot or something really intense is happening. I can sort of trust my camera even when I can't quite see clearly or I can allow things to happen that I couldn't before and I can compose a new ways.
Chris Orwig: 01:00:57 Then I can, I know there's different ways people like back button focus or different things, but now basically there's freedom and freedom can be dangerous cause you're like, well I can do anything I want, but I sort of learned, Oh this is kind of soulful and, and so back to the guitar, like you hear the strum of the guitar, I'm like, Oh, this resonates. I like this and it doesn't, I, you know, I am an ambassador and so I am biased to got, you know, got to say all that. But when I first shot Sony, I put tape over all of my cameras. I've always done that over the logos and stuff. And then now I've been at a few Sony events and they're like, Chris, why do you always cover up our name? You know, I'm like, yeah. I'm like, well you know, I don't know.
Chris Orwig: 01:01:40 I, it's like an old cause journalists used to do that. My old journalists friends, cause then people ask you about the camera and they're getting into the camera and in a portrait shoot, almost every time in the shoot I hand my camera to the subject. I'll be like, Hey, can you hold this while I tie my shoe? Or I set it on the ground and I do that. Cause I don't want them to think this is a $5,000 piece of equipment that I need to be afraid of. Which it really is, but I just want, Oh, it's just this kind of thing we're using. And it doesn't really matter. I'm trying to belittle the significance of that, but either way that's why I did it. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah. and and it's been happy and I feel like I'm part of a community and a family in a way I've never had before.
Chris Orwig: 01:02:23 And I say all of that too with people to never say someone else needs to switch. Cause the worst thing in the world with all of this camera stuff online now is people are so discontent. The new version comes out, they're like, Oh, or someone else hypes some other camera system and they're like, Oh I, I'm not, I don't have that. And the reality is that's just noise and, and it's all, remember I started, it's all good enough and it's all great enough. And the goal I think as a photographer is to say, rather than say that if, then what if, if if I had that, then I could do something great. It's like, you know what, I only brought one lens with me and it's a 35 and I want to do portrait. I don't like 35 for portraits personally, but I'm going to lean into that.
Chris Orwig: 01:03:12 I mean, cause what are my options? Like wish I had a different camera. I wish I had a different lens. Wish it, you know that that thinking doesn't work. I like the Picasso thing, the quote where he said, if I don't have red, I use blue. And I think that's one of the most profound things he's ever said. I use blue. Yeah. Which is, you know, as photographers we think, well, if only, you know, the, the wardrobe was a little different or if only the light was a little better or, but the, I think the artists out there, they're like, Oh, it's red. You know, red, I ran out of red, I'll use blue or, you know, and I think that's why you can hand a camera to people who are really good photographers, doesn't matter the brand, make, model anything. And, and I've been around some of those people the CRISPR cards, one of them, I hung out with him.
Chris Orwig: 01:04:02 He's, he's a, a venture, a travel photographer. And I've been standing where he's standing and I'm just like, I have no idea how the heck he created that. And in a situation say with his phone, I have the same phone he has, you know. So there's, we're equal in that way, but he somehow instinctively and intuitively and quickly tapped into something I completely overlooked. So anyway, that, you know, so gear, you know, gear is good. It's great, it's fun. The other thing I will say with gear too, cause I tried to not get people to into the whole gear race is that gear can also ignite a fire. Like remember I say in the beginning when I got my camera, the momentous moment. And so that happens to me. Like when I get a new lens I'm like, Oh my gosh, I got to kind of step up my game because this lens is a really good lens and we all know you can make really horrible pictures with really expensive gear.
Chris Orwig: 01:05:00 Very much so. Yeah. And so you kind of have to like raise to the challenge. Like this lens is calling me to step up my game. Like, I don't know, 35 very well, I better figure this out. I better, you know, I better figure out where this breaks, where this falls apart, how, how close I can get, how far away, how high, how low, how everything. So anyway, I do think gear can really ignite a fire if someone is an adult drum and if they are completely stuck, gear can help. I'm not advocating that you go out and buy everything you want. Too much gear too quickly is the worst thing you can do for yourself as a photographer. But sometimes a single piece of gear, like I'm considering getting a GoPro. I don't like GoPros. I don't like that super wide angle lens.
Chris Orwig: 01:05:42 But for some reason I have this instinct that I need to learn how to shoot ultra wide and with a small format with not being able to see the image. You know, it's equivalent. Maybe if someone picking up a film camera, if they've never shot film and they're like, you know, it's like it teaches you things that you, you won't know what you learn until after you go through the experience. Yeah. That makes sense. Like imagine like if I said, okay, here's your challenge, I'm giving you a GoPro, go shoot your next wedding. And you would, you would work harder in preparation for that. And I would say, and this wedding, it's going to be televised and it's going to be in people magazine. That's a huge budget. And you have one GoPro and you know, you would just
Raymond: 01:06:27 Hopefully two or three dozen batteries.
Chris Orwig: 01:06:29 Yeah, you have battery, you, whatever, you know, if all the supplies you want. But just the only camera lens combo you have is this. I imagine it would ignite a fire in you that would just be absolutely crazy and there's no guarantee anything would turn out. But I guarantee you would learn a lot.
Raymond: 01:06:49 Oh man. That is quite a challenge. In fact. Could you imagine that? What if you had to do that? Oh that'd be horrible. As somebody who loves GoPro, GoPro is probably one of my favorite cameras only because it removes me from the equation of photography. And I've talked about this plenty of times on the podcast. Whenever I go on vacation, the only camera that I'll bring is my GoPro because I don't look at the camera, I just turn it on. I just, I turn it onto burst mode. So it will take three photos in a second or five photos and two seconds. I believe. I'll just take the picture whenever something is happening later on. I choose the decisive moment and then that's it. I was still there with my kids. I had fun and I'm willing to take that hit of image quality. Even though right now the image quality is fantastic, but I'm willing to take that bit of a hit to be able to enjoy more of that time with my kids. But as far as a wedding goes, I have learned a lot of the limitations of a GoPro. And you're right, I would Oh man, I would, I would prepare for weeks.
Chris Orwig: 01:07:52 Yes. And you would do test shoots and you would, do you know what I mean? And nonstop. Yeah. And so that's where I think too with gear, you know, I know we're going to little exaggerate with the GoPro, but for someone listening, if they're kind of thinking about gear think about it, not just the excitement of it's shiny and it's new and it's well-reviewed, but just say like, what is this piece of gear going to teach me? And then I think when that box up and you unbox it, you have to ask yourself that question. You know, what, why is this? Why is this in my life and what is it going to teach me? Because it's going to teach you something if you're willing to listen to it. If you kind of are like, wow, I got this figured out and I know and I'm going to go kind of impose my will on it, you won't really get to know a lens or a camera very well.
Chris Orwig: 01:08:34 But I think if you step back and say, wow, you know, it taught me the 85 taught me. I really like to work up close. But you know what, this, this is true story. I was talking to a friend about this that I was saying, you know, I feel like I, I'm stuck in my photography is there, my friend's name is Katrina Heisman and I, and I, I just need to figure out how to grow. And we were at this photography event and she said, well Chris, here's the deal. It's so obvious you love the 85 you always shoot up close, you're up close. Stuff's amazing. You know, it's an all your bugs. I've, everyone loves it. But you need to think like a cinematographer. You need to have the, you know, the, the scene setting shot which is pulled back the mid level shot and then the up close.
Chris Orwig: 01:09:17 Scott, you're just missing two of the three shots. And I thought, Oh my gosh, you know, you are, I mean like, like my immune. So obvious. But then I did what she said and my results just went through the roof. And part of that meant I had to change my gear cause you can't shoot a wide angle scene setting shot with an 85. I mean you can step back far away but eventually it just, just too narrow of an angle of view. Right. So so anyway, ask yourself, what, what, what is this gear going to teach me? And then, you know, maybe back to the guitarist or something, sometimes you, you get a lens and you realize what it taught me is I actually don't like this lens or this camera. That's okay. Part ways. You know, I think some of us feel we feel this burden of ownership of like will that cost so much? And it's like, you know, as artists sometimes you make expensive mistakes. Like yeah I'm going to lose $400 cause I'm going to have to sell it used. But this just isn't for me. And I've, you know, I've had to make those mistakes for, hopefully you ran it beforehand. Hopefully you don't have to do that. But I mean we've all done it, right? Yeah.
Raymond: 01:10:27 I mean, the thing unfortunately with renting, and I am a huge advocate for renting, is that at some point you just don't have enough time with something to truly learn. You know what it can do. But I will say that when I first started shooting weddings, it was with zoom lenses cause I thought I was like, Oh, the 24 to 72 ways. Like that's, that's the wedding lens you gotta have. And I was the laziest photographer in the world because I just zoomed into everything. I didn't move my feet. And after that first wedding, I was like, Nope. And sold it immediately. My wife was like, you just bought this lens. And I was like, I know, but I'm going primes, I gotta shoot primes. And that's, that's what I did because I figured out that it wasn't right for me. But at the same time, I've rented other zoom that I've thought, what am I doing shooting primes? It's so versatile and I can get so much more. Or so, it just all comes at a time.
Chris Orwig: 01:11:21 It does. And I also think to Matisse, the painter, you know, later in his life, he was in a wheelchair and he would put his brushes on these huge long poles and you had paint these big pieces sitting in his wheelchair and then he couldn't do that anymore. So he went to paper cutouts and he used scissors and he cut out paper and created these beautiful pieces. I actually liked some of his cutouts more than his paintings. But what I love about that is how he adapted. And what I mean by that is at different ages we're able to physically carry different camera gear, or maybe the primes like right now are great for you, but, or for me for that matter. But let's just say, I don't know. I have a break my ankle and I need that to be able to zoom in and zoom out because I'm not as mobile or I need that really light small camera.
Chris Orwig: 01:12:06 I think the, the people who create great work are like, that's okay. You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna adapt to this stage in my life. And that's another, you know, reason. These mirrorless cameras are so nice. I can have this powerful kit that's really small and light and shoot certain ways. And so I think as we navigate through our arc as human beings and as people and I'm responding to that either emotionally, cause sometimes emotionally it's like I am up close. I like want to be right there. But then for me sometimes I'm like, I am so overwhelmed with all this up close
Chris Orwig: 01:12:40 Yeah. It's like, it's almost like eating something that's really good, but just too much of it does. It's healthy food, but it's like you can only eat so many blueberries or I don't know, something like that, you know, it's like I need to step back and so I need to change my gear and respond to that. And so seeing coming up with this kind of emotional, intimate relationship with gear is what I've found makes photographers really good. Rather than having this relationship based on the latest reviews, the latest YouTube videos and the excitement surrounding just with gadgetry and buying stuff. Because that's important. Buying a guitar that's well-made is important. But the question is can you create something that's musical and beautiful and expressive? And so if we can apply that musical analogy to our camera gear it can help out.
Raymond: 01:13:32 At least that's my take. Yeah. Yeah. It all goes back to kind of figuring out who it is that you are as a person and how you shoot a scene and what it is that you like. And unfortunately, you know, YouTube reviews aren't going to tell you what it is that you like. Youtube reviews aren't going to tell you you know what's right for you and it just does take that personal, personal experience. So before I let you go, I've kept you board ever. We're going to keep talking all day. I wish I could, but I got my seven year old is not going to be happy if I don't show up to pick him up from school. So I've got, I want to know from you though, what the one thing in 2020 that new photographers who are listening right now should really focus on if they want to start taking better portraits.
Chris Orwig: 01:14:21 Yeah. I would say the one thing that will kind of catapult your growth, your career or vocation or hobby or whatever it is, is to photograph people that matter to you. And the trick with photography, there's a myth that I like to try to dispel, which is some teachers will say, if you want to capture more interesting photographs stand in front of more interesting things. I think that works some of the time, but it's, it's a little bit misplaced in the sense that in portraiture, if you want to get good at portraiture and you've never captured a portrait of your dad, you need to do that. Or of your daughter or if your best friend or of that person you see every day that serves your coffee, that has those earrings and tattoos. You need to take that risk as this is someone you've known for a decade and you care about and they care about you and you're going to somehow create that picture.
Chris Orwig: 01:15:16 So if you want to capture more interesting portraits, take photographs of people that matter to you, there's a greater chance that they will then matter to someone else and try to resist the urge to go the easy route and photograph people that have some kind of a dramatic look. That's what we tend to think. You know, someone gets into it and they're like, Whoa, my so-and-so. And it's like, yes, do that. That's fine. But photographing, let's say an iron man triathlete who's really muscular and handsome and striking it's, it's not gonna, you're not gonna learn as much and it's not going to be as good of a picture compared to you photograph your brother and cause that's going to be awkward and hard and interesting and all those things. So that would be my one tip is photograph people that inspire you, that you admire, that you care about and that will then all that care will show up in those frames. And I think people will sense and feel that and it can be a great way to grow and learn.
Raymond: 01:16:19 Wow. She's a, all of a sudden I'm thinking about all the people who I want to photograph here in a, in 2020 and just really, really make a difference. Chris, man, thank you so much for coming on and sharing so much about your journey and how it is that you as I said in the intro, how you capture the essence of a human within a single photograph. So again, I just have to say thank you so much for coming on, but before I let you go, can you share with the listeners where they can find you and more of your work online?
Chris Orwig: 01:16:48 Yeah. And thank you too. Thanks for keeping me on, on track and sorry, I've gone on all these tangents and stuff and I'll look forward to hanging out. When we're at that conference and I'll capturing a portrait of you too. Well we'll do some dueling portraits, but yeah, just my name, which is Chris and then Orwig, O, R, W, I G. That's what I use for Instagram, my website, Facebook, all those. So that's really easy. And I have a new book that's come out, which I'm really proud of called authentic portraits we mentioned. So if you do a search for that at any of the online bookstores or at your local bookstore, you can find it there. And yeah, thanks a ton. This was, this was fine. I feel like we've been friends for years and this is a great way to start a friendship. I look forward to to the future ahead. Let's hang out some more and thanks to those of you who listened as well. If you want to reach out you can do so by you know, Instagram or my website and I love connecting with people who have a passion for photography in any way I can help or share. I love to be able to, to do that. So thanks for listening. Appreciate it.
Raymond: 01:17:52 I gotta tell you, I I already look forward to having Chris on again in the future so that we can finish our conversation with all the questions that I wasn't able to get to because just again, we simply ran out of time. It was just so much fun to chat. So, Chris, if you're listening, thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing so much. Not only about your early days in photography, but how you approach life and your portraits. So again, thank you for the listeners. I want to know what your biggest takeaway was from this interview. Me personally, it was my biggest takeaway was when Chris said that the camera is simply an instrument for capturing wisdom. Simply an instrument for capturing wisdom. That right there kinda, you know, made me, made me pay attention.
Raymond: 01:18:50 Like, Whoa, Whoa. You know, what does that mean? And I think you can tell that the Chris just has a genuine curiosity for his subjects. And that is what makes him able to really see who his subjects are and capture them correctly. You know, and one of the great things about that is that you can do that. That is a skill that you can develop. Curiosity is a skill that you can, that you can harness and, and bring into your photography. You know, it's not just something that you're born with. And remember earlier in the interview, Chris said that he looked back at his early work from high school and it was not good and he is not naturally a talented photography photographer and he has had to work on his craft continually to get to where he is today. So can you, so can I, so I want you to share your biggest takeaway with me in the beginning of photography podcast, Facebook group, and I really look forward to hearing it from you. So that is it for this week. Until next week, I want you to get out. I want you to keep shooting. I want you to stay safe and I want you to focus on yourself. So that's it. I love you all.
Outro: 01:20:11 If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.