Luci Dumas has always been crazy about kids which is good because she’s been photographing them for more than 30 years. She’s a certified master photographer through the PPA and has won numerous top awards in local and national competitions for her beautiful photographs. Recently she has started sharing all of her years of experience as the host of The Profitable Photographer Podcast with Luci Dumas
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In This Episode You'll Learn:
How Luci got started in photography
Where Luci struggled most when learning photography and how she overcame it
Tips to get kids to slow down and listen during a shoot
How to make do with the gear you have
A tip listeners can use to take better photos of kids
The photogrpahy industry Luci sees is exploding
Premium Members Also Learn:
How to double your income with one small tweak
How Luci manages working and having clients come in and out of her home
The biggest hurdle Luci had to overcome when transitioning from weddings to families
The power of being a trusted advisor
The perception of “custom”
Resources:
Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!
Full Episode Transcription:
Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically by Temi.com and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.
Raymond: 00:00:00 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast. Today we're talking about creating family heirloom photography. So let's get into it.
Intro: 00:00:10 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast, a weekly podcast for those who believe that moments matter most and that a beautiful photo is more than just a sum of its settings, a show for those who want to do more with the gear they have to take better photos today. And now your host Raymond Hatfield.
Raymond: 00:00:28 Welcome back to this episode of the beginner photography podcast. I am your host Raymond Hatfield and today we got some great, great stuff for you that I'm really excited to get into. But first let me tell you about my week. It has been a crazy crazy week over here. We get this. A few, a few weeks ago we started to notice that our floor was getting a little warmer than normally. It was especially for the winter. It was a, it was quite strange. What we found out was we had a slab leak, so we had a water pipe that had broke under our house and was just letting out tons of hot water. All of our hot water which was of course warming our slab, making our toes nice and warm. Now, while this was nice to have a warm kitchen floor in the morning, it was obviously, you know, bad for the environment.
Raymond: 00:01:26 We were losing tons of water and you know, bad, just all around. So we had to get that fixed. I mean, this guy came in with a Jack hammer to break through our slab to try to find this thing. And it was, it was a whole wreck. But this whole process took several days. And as you can imagine, a lot of time, but we finally got it fixed. We have more warm water than we had before. But unfortunately our toes are cold in the kitchen in the morning. So, you know, you win some and you lose some. But on top of all of that, I also launched my newest course called light room one Oh one last week. And the response has been, there's been great. It's been more than I really expected. There are. Th there's just, I've learned so many myths about lightroom.
Raymond: 00:02:15 Out there that are just really stopping so many photographers just like you from creating incredible images and myths about like room light. You know, it's only for professionals or you can't start editing your photos until you know, you get it perfect in camera or have a top of align you know, new camera body or that you don't need light room if you prefer a natural look. And that has been one of the biggest things that has kind of caught me off guard because when you think about it, everybody wants a natural look, right? Everybody, every single person wants their photos to look, quote unquote natural. It just that we're all unique and see the world just a little bit differently. And what's natural to me, it doesn't look natural to you, but it's not about looking natural photos that come straight out of camera don't look natural.
Raymond: 00:03:10 It's a learning to edit or learning to edit is the ability to show the world how you see natural. So it's that on top of the incredible powers of keeping your ever-growing photo collection of images just meticulously organized which really makes light room the industry standard when it comes to editing and managing your photo. So in my new course light room one Oh one I take you from import to export and show you how to create a powerful photo editing workflow just so that you can spend less time really wondering what sliders do what and spend more time shooting what it is that you love. So on top of that, this core course to make the whole deal sweeter, I include six bonuses worth $632. Did you really? You have to see to believe. So anyway, if you want to finally master light room and create images that are incredible, I have a link to the course in the show notes of this episode that has a code attached to knock $50 off of the price.
Raymond: 00:04:15 And of course there's a full 30 day money back guarantee. So just head over to learn that beginner photography, podcast.com to find the new course light room one-on-one, or click the link in the show notes for more. And enrollment closes this Thursday, March 5th. If you're listening when this episode goes live, enrollment closes March 5th at midnight. So if you want to learn how to use light room, sign up for it now while it's still fresh in your mind. So today I talked to Luci Dumas. Luci is a photographer from San Diego who's been shooting families for 30 years. I mean, she is just a wealth of knowledge and inspiration. You're really gonna get a ton out of this interview and you're also going to get one of the best tips to photographing kids that I have ever heard. It's the exact opposite approach of what I would take in this situation.
Raymond: 00:05:10 You're going to have to hear it to believe it. And then as always, I also cut a portion of the interview out that is related to making money with your camera and save it just for premium members. So this week, premium members are in for a treat because they are going to learn how to double your income with one small tweak. I'm serious how Lucy manages working and having clients come in and out of her home. How and how becoming your client's trusted advisor will transform your business. So like I said, there's a ton of extra information in this one. So if you want to hear these moneymaking tips from today's guests, Luci and tips from past guests, then become a premium member by heading over to beginner photography podcast.com and click that premium membership button at the top of the page. So with that, let's get into this interview with Luci Dumas. Today's guest has always been crazy about kids, which is good because she's been photographing them for more than 30 years. She's a certified master photographer through the PPA and has won numerous top awards in local and national competitions for her beautiful photographs recently. She has started sharing all of her years of experience as the host of the profitable photographer podcast. Luci Dumas. Lucy, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Luci Dumas: 00:06:33 Thank you Raymond. I'm so excited. It was so great to meet you in person at the PPA expo and now we get to have a chat.
Raymond: 00:06:41 So I know, I know, I a few weeks ago well technically yesterday, but a few weeks ago when people are listening to this in the weird time zone of podcasts when I released that episode, I said how much fun it was just going out and actually meeting people who I have. You know, I oftentimes as a photographer was stuck behind the camera, you know, we're stuck behind or I'm sorry, stuck behind the computer and we don't really get to go out and meet people like we do as you would like a traditional, you know, nine to five day job or something like that. And going to a convention was something that I had never experienced before. I didn't know what to expect. It was and it was a absolutely incredible and being able to meet all of the fantastic people including you was just a, a was just a treat. So again, I'm super excited to talk to you today, but like I mentioned in the intro, you've been photographing for decades. So this month, 38 years this month, that's fantastic.
Luci Dumas: 00:07:42 No other job. No rich husband, never won the lottery. No inheritance Raymond: 00:07:49 All on your own. All on your own. So then why don't you go ahead and just let us know how, how did you get started in photography in the first place?
Luci Dumas: 00:07:57 Well, like a lot of people, I've always been an artist at heart and it is a preteen. I got a camera that actually the film was, I don't, I don't know what the millimeter was, but it was a pretty nice big black and white size. Do you know what I'm talking about? It was like a brownie or something, you know, before they started shrinking, shrinking, shrinking. So I always had a camera and I didn't photograph a lot because affording the film and the processing was difficult. And then I was on a date with, it was an out of town boyfriend and we met halfway between and he bought a Canon AE-1 when I was in my twenties. And I took, I helped him figure out how to load the film and a few images that I took on camera versus my, you know, little cheapy thing.
Luci Dumas: 00:08:58 It just blew my mind. And I realized I could afford a camera and I probably could figure out how to use it. I was always a timid dated by the, you know, the technology, but when they came out with auto, you know, ability to set the shutter speed and it picked the aperture so I didn't have to learn everything right up at first. It just changed everything. And I had another little business in the airport in San Diego, the recession hit and my contract is canceled. And you know, that like the magic eight ball w one of the things says all everything, all signs point to yes. You know, I kept, you know, what am I going to do now? And it, it was a man's world at the time. But I didn't let that stop me and you know, just went forward and a step at a time. I figured out how to make this work. And so I haven't had what I call a real job you know, in a whole bunch of years. So,
Raymond: 00:10:11 But listening are envious of that and the ability to go off and and do something like that. So before, before we get into the business that you had started and photographing children and families and weddings when you first picked up that camera, you know, you said that you got that one, you started taking photos and you were just blown away by how much better the quality was. Was there anything that you would say that you struggled with most when it came to the technical side of photography?
Luci Dumas: 00:10:43 Just understanding all the numbers and the concepts. Before we started this recording, I shared that flash photography is still kind of my nemesis. Luckily when I was doing weddings the there, there's a Vivitar two 85, where all I had to understand was full power, half power quarter and then dial in the purple, blue, red, yellow. And because film is forgiving, I do just made sure I had enough light but not too much. But some of the little like guide numbers and sometimes mixing a flash or off camera flash you know, those little things are just not my nature. And I learned them actually, I was surprised at how much of a technical brain I do have as this unfolded and I began to learn.
Raymond: 00:11:47 Really. So how would you say that you kind of overcame that? Was it just purely through practice?
Luci Dumas: 00:11:51 It's necessity. You know, if I'm gonna make a living at this, I've got to learn my craft. I've got to learn my equipment.
Raymond: 00:12:00 I think today we're at this point to where many people would say, well, why? Like, why don't, why do I even need to know flash? Like what's the point? D would you, did you have an option back then? Why if you, if you weren't comfortable with it, why pursue that I guess is my question.
Luci Dumas: 00:12:17 So in the wedding world, you have to have a flash. When I started the film we used was ISO 100 very slow. Yeah. And then they came up with decent 400 and so on a tripod at a ceremony, I could do F for it, for [inaudible] to get the ceremony. But you know, you can't take the whole wedding party outside in open shade to get family groups and all that. So it's, it's absolutely necessary in that world. As I built my photography business, I mean my, my baby and children's portrait business cause I did weddings for 12 years. Primarily I believe in the importance of focusing in one area because you grow faster and you gain more reputation, you get more traction. So about 2010 or about 10 years in, then I started growing a children's business and primarily focusing on natural light photography.
Luci Dumas: 00:13:27 But not because I didn't know what I was doing. And so I went outside and hoped for the best. You know what I mean? I'm a natural light photographer, but because I loved the quality and I love the simplicity of discovering how to find beautiful light. That's one of my one of my fortes. Something I love to teach people. I have a fun little class where I photographed my Barbie in it, you know, to illustrate. And it was amazing how she looked like she'd had a really rough night in pain, in bad light and looked like my new best friends in good light. And, and my Barbie was an olden where she had these shifty eyes or she's like looking off instead of looking right at you. So yeah. So I just love it. I love finding the light and it was, you know, a lot of your questions of how did I learn this?
Luci Dumas: 00:14:27 I've always been involved in the PR professional photographers of America. Go to week long classes every year. Probably been to 20 in my career where I spent a week with a small group and one photographer and one of them opened my eyes up. I, his name is passing me by. He's from. But I learned to see in a way that I hadn't before. And so at that point then I just saw light everywhere. Like one of my challenges with video interviews with anybody is that I'm always looking at the light. I see that bright light behind you. I see the light on your face. If I look at me, I think, you know, or re lit. Right. So it's like this noise in my head that never goes away, but it's great.
Raymond: 00:15:23 What do you think it was that you learned that kind of gave you that aha moment? Say again? What do you think it was that, that you learned, that gave you that aha moment you said during that course you walked away now being able to see the light. Why do you think that was?
Luci Dumas: 00:15:36 So there's two things. That well, one of the biggies that I love, love, love to share with people isn't the brightest part of a photograph becomes the subject. So I was including a lot of sky in things. And then when I looked at my work after this class, I was like, Oh, my eye is taken away from the person. And so from that point I remember doing a wedding shortly after the class and I would set my tripod, I would do my composition, I'd get the people in place, then I'd look through the lens and realize, Oh my gosh, too much sky. So then I'd move forward because that was Hasselblad, they were fixed lenses. So that was a biggie. And there just was something about this whole week of him pointing out the light and how to find it. That it's, it's like you know, the synapses in the brain, a little pathways grew to a point where now I can't unseat light as it falls.
Raymond: 00:16:50 Yeah. Yeah. Having that full week dedicated to learning just that one thing. I could see how that would be extremely helpful that
Luci Dumas: 00:16:58 I was on vacation. Just have to tell you this little story. I was on vacation. We, my boyfriend and I were driving through kind of farm country in Utah, East of salt Lake city. And later in the evening. And I go, Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh. And he's like, what, what, what? Look at the light on those cows. So, you know, cause then I could see that subtlety of the evening light and, and how it created texture and you know, I'll never forget the light on those cows.
Raymond: 00:17:31 Yeah. It's a weird thing, right. Something that only photographers would see. Somebody who's like somebody who can see that light.
Luci Dumas: 00:17:38 Yes. And, but once I get, cause I, you know, I'm always teaching people whether they want it or not. And so people around me, I love to help them see, see the light. One of the things I like about, I'm on my iMac and it's got a nice big bright screen. So I've got some nice directional light here. Whereas if I'm in my other computer in my chair, it's a whole different light pattern. So yes, I'm always, you know, looking for a good direction. Yeah. I'm always seeing it.
Raymond: 00:18:15 I love that. So then tell me about how this business of photographing, so okay, let me start back over. You lost your job at the at the airport, right? Yeah. So you knew that you had to make money somehow. Was it first weddings that you decided, I'm going to jump into this?
Luci Dumas: 00:18:34 So I always loved kids and I always loved weddings. I, I cry at cartoon weddings when I was five. My dad, who was a minister, photographed the richest person in our church. It was not a very rich church, but this one family, and I'll never forget the scene with the candles and the beautiful dress and there's a picture they gave my parents of me flying through the crowd with the bride and groom behind me. And you can see the joy on my face and and then kids are my thing. Always had as a little girl. I always had baby dolls and always I babysat even when I was way too young. I should not have been babysitting at that age. Maybe it was crying and it took me a long time to check the diaper. I never made much
Raymond: 00:19:33 Step number one. Yeah,
Luci Dumas: 00:19:34 Check the diaper. Don't try to feed it. But I tried everything. I, at the beginning, I did some trades with my gym for their ads and got to do studio work there. And that was fun. I did a little bit of product shot. I, there was a free newspaper that would hire me. It was health it was called holistic, holistic living news. So they'd send me on assignments to photograph somebody grounding wheat grass or, or mushrooms for our macrobiotic restaurants or just different things and they would pay me for every image that was used as well as on a session. And that puts some money in my pocket and helped me. I have had a friend who's very photogenic and for fun we built a portfolio and did some different things. But then when I began to think about the smart moves, I realized there is built in work with weddings.
Luci Dumas: 00:20:45 It is the easiest, if you like weddings, that is an easy path to get work and get some bigger money in your pocket without having to learn how to be a master salesperson, which you know, selling is my super power. But so I made the choice to specialize. Now if somebody came to me and wanted a baby portrait or family portrait, of course I didn't turn that down, but my marketing, my, there was no websites at the time. But my brochure how I promoted myself, the classes I took, you know, we were talking about attending conferences. So I would go to all the wedding classes so that I just grew, grew, grew, grew, both in terms of reputation and my own knowledge. You know, go to bed dreaming about weddings, waking up, thinking about weddings. I had an assistant that helped me a lot.
Luci Dumas: 00:21:47 And on the way home we'd always talk about, okay, what worked well with that? You know, what can we improve? How can we handle that problem before it happens? So all of that focus, I believe so strongly what you focus on expanse and that. So within three years I was like making a full time living actually sooner than that, but three years it was really solid. And the other thing, I'm a very natural networker. I'm always supporting people. If I like what somebody does, I tell everyone. And so it was very natural and easy in the wedding industry to get partnered up with other vendors because there are a lot of small businesses and, and when someone's getting married, they need a lot of small businesses. So referring, making friends and even getting to know who was a good photographer in San Diego and referring them when I'm booked, then they started referring me back. So you know, at all, I didn't know that, that, that I was doing things, you know, the way I now teach people in my coaching to grow their business. But just as a natural connector it and I love communities. I love to form communities and a lot of that was selfish because I knew if they were using my DJ, my cake maker, my videographer, my florist, the day went so much better. Yeah,
Raymond: 00:23:35 That's a good feeling, especially as a photographer to go in and know, you know, to have to have a good idea of how the day is going to go is always, is always extremely helpful. So when did transition come?
Luci Dumas: 00:23:46 When it from weddings to primarily children and family, I realized I was going to hit burnout, which I did. Honestly, I think I had about 10 years of PTSD after work when things are rough and it's especially in the film day where it's just the anxiety waiting a week to know if you got it, if everything were, I can't imagine one time my Hasselblad, one of the Leafs broke in the lens, but I didn't know it and luckily I was on a tripod. Well actually, I don't know if that helped me, but using natural light and I put it on a tripod. I've opened the shedder because that cuts down on a vibration shake. And then I'd, I'd walk into the walk, let's say to the bride and I'd fluff her hair or something. Well, when they got the pictures got back, there were streaks of me in my own foot grass.
Luci Dumas: 00:24:57 No was not good. It turned out okay. But yeah, anyway, things, so it's hard work. It's hard work. Physically. I was finding that instead of like, Sunday was always a recovery day where that adrenaline hangover and the physicality of it, you know, I kind of felt like mush when I found, you know, as I, you know, I'm not getting any younger. It would be two days before I would feel normal and I realized the time's coming. So I just started growing the children's business. I set up a studio in an apartment I have above my garage. I changed my ad in the yellow pages. I changed my marketing materials. I started telling people, you know, if somebody said, who are you, what do you do? I stopped saying, I'm a wedding photographer. Started saying I've photographed children, they're my, you know, kids that are my, my thing.
Luci Dumas: 00:26:02 And luckily it was a wide open field at the time. Why is that nobody else was doing it? Well, so if you think about it had been a man's world about 10 years in is when a wave of women started getting into the industry. And teaching dudes in general are not, no, actually, you know, NASA and all guys, but especially the men of my generation they know that they didn't strap their babies onto them, you know, and go for walks in the neighborhood, walking the dog. Like I see in my, you know, I see every day my, so there were people doing photographs of kids, but they didn't know what to do with newborns. For the most part, it wasn't their passion. There were really only two fine art photographers that specialized in children in San Diego. You know, there were the Olan mills, there were Sears, but that doesn't count.
Luci Dumas: 00:27:10 Right. So now where I see a similar opportunity is in pets. Pets. Really? Yeah. Because it's a specialty that is growing and there's like now kids are it's harder because in the digital age it's so easy to get a good photograph and get feedback and get better quickly. And you know, and many more women are in the industry. So it would seem natural to me that they'd photograph their kids and their neighbors and people say, Oh, that's great. And then they say, I'm going to do have a business with pets. It's just a little, it's more of a niche that hasn't been fully blossomed. And also interesting like weddings, there are lots of other vendors that are independently owned that serve the community. So there's networking opportunities. That's a good point. That's a good point out. That's something to think about. And let's, let's see, let's go back to that transition was just first of all just telling the world.
Luci Dumas: 00:28:25 And at the time I was working on my, my getting my craftsmen and master's degree in PPA. One of the ways that you do that is by speaking. And so I that two in the morning I wrote this program out about what it is, things that I know about children that maybe photographers don't. And so the program primarily is the seven or eight stages of childhood and what you can do at each stage and what you can't, like, why you can have clothing changes with an 11 month old and not a 13 month old. Hmm. Why is that? It's brain development is right about 12 months when they are getting, you know, strong enough to walk. There's something in the brain. And I had a a scientist tell him, a brain scientists tell me what it was. I don't remember, but there's something grows that is about independence and self identification. And that's when the, to me, that's when the terrible to start is it about 13, 14 months because it's their job now to start to say no and to so gotcha. Yeah, that's a great tip. And then the other part of the program is about the basic needs and how to address them in advance. And during a session, for example, they need to be comfortable. They need to be rested, they need to be healthy. If it's going badly, they might be scared or they might be bored or they might be too.
Raymond: 00:30:06 They might, yeah, they might. Yeah,
Luci Dumas: 00:30:07 They might be. They just might be too. A couple others. Healthy, sad, scared. Did I say that? Anyway, so I created this program and I started speaking about children and when I entered print competition, I entered primarily children's photography, both in my local state and national organizations. So and it just grew.
Raymond: 00:30:38 So tell me about some of those early struggles because I know for me, having two children, whenever I point the camera at them, they're kind of used to the camera because I always have a camera with me. But there's still this self-awareness that they get whenever the camera's pointed at them. So when it comes to kids and I guess specifically posing children, was that the hardest hurdle to overcome when transitioning from weddings to to working with children? You're shaking your head no. No. What, what was the biggest hurdle to overcome?
Luci Dumas: 00:31:11 So the reason it's not a hurdle is because kids are my thing and, and they know, like, they feel the love, they feel the acceptance right off the bat. And also I work on a tripod as much as possible. So
Luci Dumas: 00:31:32 I'm making faces at them. I'm having a relationship. I don't have a big black something or, you know, a phone in front of my face. They're seeing my face and responding and I, I just seem to have infinite patience. Now that being said, my neighbor kids who are like, my kids really hard to photograph them because like you said, it's just me and, and I don't, you know, when they'd be like, Hey, let's go in your studio, you know, take our picture. I wouldn't have made sure I had a nap. I wouldn't have my equipment in order. You know, like the, all the things I do to prepare for a paid session. We hadn't done that and I'd find myself, no, don't do it that way. And then I'd be like, Whoa, you know, I would never say that to a client's child. So, let's see. But back to hurdles or,
Raymond: 00:32:31 You know what, let's just talk about posing. I think that's one thing that, that, that a lot of people struggle with when it comes to kids because I feel like now there's really two schools of thought when it comes to photographing children. There is the, you know, the traditional posed, have them in like perfect controlled lighting, have the scene set, you know, camera on a tripod. There's that. But then there's also just like the lifestyle stuff, which is, Hey, cameras are good enough without a focus. I'll just shoot them as they play and then that will be that. Right? Those are two very different things. You specialize obviously in the, the, the post portraiture of children. You kind of shaking your head yes and no.
Luci Dumas: 00:33:11 Yes and no. When I do a session I do both. But what I do is I control the light, whether it's in the studio where I moved the lights so that when they're just doing what they're doing, the lighting's good. Or if we're outdoors, I don't just randomly chase him around areas where the light stinks. I, I'll get them in, let's say sitting on a bench together or something and I see the light is good and I also am able to get them positioned so that when they do whatever they do it's good angles.
Raymond: 00:33:53 What does that mean? What does that mean? Get them positioned so that when they do whatever it is that they're going to do.
Luci Dumas: 00:33:58 Okay. So if I'm going to do sort of a lifestyle let's say it's in a home if we were going to say, Oh, let's have them let's have them reading books together. So I'd find a place where the light was nice and I positioned the book and then let them mess around in that target rich environment. In terms of of the, the scene itself and the lighting or you know, Oh, let's have them eating breakfast. Well, I'd make sure that I'm positioned in their position. So there's a nice light and there's nice background while they're eating breakfast. Also I'm all about making the sale. I'm an in person sales kinda gal and I find that when someone's going to put their dollars down for something, they, even those, those Cannady type photographs and some are truly candid, they still want to be able to see their face.
Luci Dumas: 00:35:08 They still want their body parts to be, you know, placed in good things. They don't want, you know, hands in strange, like the composition still needs to be there for them to buy it. And they mostly buy ones where they can see nice, evocative, whether it's a smile or a tender moment where they can see the expression and experience that. One of the drawbacks for people who do let's say photograph and deliver, I'm not sure if shoot and burn is now considered, you know, proper or it's offensive. You know what I'm talking about?
Raymond: 00:35:52 Yeah. I don't think so.
Luci Dumas: 00:35:53 Okay. So one of the downsides with shooting burn is that you don't know what they would actually buy if given, if that was their choice. So you don't grow in terms of providing for your clients more and more images that they are thrilled with. Like they'll be thrilled over all, but you don't know if you're wasting your time, let's say at a wedding photographing the fork. Yeah. But if you're selling them photographs for an album, you'll see which pictures you're doing that are highly successful, which poses which feeling. So that being said, having, having sold, you know, a quadrillion zillion photographs and sat with clients to see what makes their hearts explode from joy. I know, I know, you know what people are going to love. Does that make sense?
Raymond: 00:37:01 It does. It does. And that has changed the way that you, did you, or I guess how much candid versus how much post photos that you, that you do. So when it comes to those posts, photos, what are the ones that people are putting their dollars down for?
Luci Dumas: 00:37:20 It, it really comes down to that the expression says something. I see so many pictures where people get everything in place. The design is good, the composition, the lighting kids are dressed great. And then the, they're dead in the eyes or not just dead in the eyes, but you know, that, that it's what I, for me, what I consider the before the moment photograph rather than that moment that you want to look at over and over and over again. Like the reason MonaLisa is so evocative is there is something in those 50 muscles in the face that has, that the painter has captured that as humans we read as feeling. And with her it's an intriguing feeling because it's not exactly clear what she's feeling. So we can tell lots of different stories. I mean, that's why I encourage like, people always want smiles but not cheese. That's the other reason I like little kids because they're pre preaches, never said that before, but it's easier for me to entertain them and get their attention and get them, you know, like you're listening to me right now. And so your muscles in your face are responding and your eyes are sparkling and attentive and you know,
Luci Dumas: 00:38:59 Those, those moments are well, so I listened to a program on master artists. One of them was [inaudible] and the other was Bernini. Okay. That it was a PBS show and both of them did.
Luci Dumas: 00:39:20 Did people and they were talking about what makes a successful photograph of a person. And especially like busts. If you've seen, you know marble busts of people is that the expression looks like either they just said something or they're just about to Speaker 4: 00:39:45 I never thought about that
Luci Dumas: 00:39:46 I know, isn't that right?
Raymond: 00:39:51 Yeah, it's weird. I've always just imagined somebody trying to stay as still as possible while somebody scopes out that marble. But when it's, when it's put that way, that makes it seem a lot more interesting.
Luci Dumas: 00:40:03 Yeah. Yeah. And so let's see, what was your question?
Raymond: 00:40:09 We're talking about the poses of kids that it is that you enjoy.
Luci Dumas: 00:40:13 So, so, you know, every age I have different, different poses that I know will work. So for talking about babies, one of the mistakes I see is they park a baby shoulder straight to the camera and feet out in front of them. So look how big my hands look. Yeah. And they kind of look like flippers and especially there'll be like this. So if you just turn that kid, bend their leg in when, and this is the sit and stay age is what I call it, which is seven to 10, 11 months where sure they're going to tip over, they're going to crawl away, but for a little bit or in the right chair, they'll sit. So the turns or the shoulders are turn and the faces to the camera,
Luci Dumas: 00:41:07 It's a much more pleasing photograph than when they're just, you know, legs out in front of them so they don't fall over. So it's those little subtle posing opportunities that I look for. If it's a toddler, I'm looking for either a way to elevate them so that they don't run away. Or one of my tricks is to have them, if we're outside try to push over a wall or a tree so they get sideways, their hands are fixed somewhere. We're telling them to push and then I get their attention. So I get an expression, I get their face, their body is in a good position. So I have all these tricks.
Raymond: 00:41:52 Yeah, that's a good one right there. I never, I've always wondered how, because it seems like I would never ever convince my three year old to just, you know, put your hands on a tree and like look like you're really posing. But yeah, push the tree over. Push the tree or, Oh, and by the way, just look at me real quick. Okay, perfect. It. Yeah.
Luci Dumas: 00:42:09 Well no, I don't say look at me. So that's the other thing with the toddler. No. the other thing with the toddler is at this stage of development, they are learning independence. And so if they know what I want and they are practicing saying no, that day I won't get anything. They'll never do what I want. So we never say go stand here and look at me. Do this mile. I have to earn it. So get them in place, push, push, push, and then I make a noise or I squeak or I, you know, I do something that gets their attention. I don't say, look over here, smile.
Raymond: 00:42:52 Right. But then at that moment, that's the, that's a decisive moment.
Luci Dumas: 00:42:56 Oh, where's the ball? Oh, there's a deck on my head. You know, something to get them looking. And that works. And the other part that I know a lot of people will resonate with in photographing kids. And this is fun to talk about this because a lot of my interviews we talk about making money and I, and that is certainly, you know, dear to my heart, but so is how to be effective photographing and especially kid is. So the other part that has to be handled as the parents and I tell them, I, you know, now I might say I'm the captain now, but basically I let them know I'm like, now the, the parent and I need to establish a relationship with your kids, get them to respond to me. So please don't repeat what I say because they'll wait to do what I want until you say it.
Luci Dumas: 00:43:59 And you won't say it at the moment. I need it. Sometimes if there's parents that are being too, we'll say attentive, I have them turn backwards. Oh wow. So they can't even see when it's a group UN, if you look at I know you're going to have a show notes and you're going to have pictures. So there, there's one if you decide to put it in, it's a big family group with lots of little kids. The hardest part in a group that has small children is to get the parents to keep their attention on me with a nice expression and not to look at the child
Raymond: 00:44:40 To make sure that they're looking right and doing what there's currently ruining the photos themselves and not the kids. Yeah.
Luci Dumas: 00:44:47 Right now with digital, now I can do head swaps. And by the way, one of the reasons I work on a tripod, especially with groups, is it makes head swaps so easy because you just open in layers and Photoshop, stack up everything, and then they all line up and you just do mass and your pain in the expressions you want whoever rather not do that. So I guide the parents. I say, here's the rules. I, unless I instruct you to pull the baby's fingers out of their mouth or catch the toddler. Do not look at them. Look at me. If you're looking at them to see if they're being bad. I say this a lot. If I've got to, I feel comfortable, then you're being bad. So then I can, you know, if they do it, I can be like, [inaudible] just keep looking at me. You love me. I'm, I'm,
Luci Dumas: 00:45:46 You know, I'm the center of your attention right now. So yeah, that is, that have only done reshoots twice of toddlers. One is when this Korean mom brought her mother and her aunts and her sister just to be there. Even though I was only photographing the toddler, I could not get anything because this child loves all those other people or than me. So I had her come back, just her and the baby and it went beautifully. Well, the other one where I offered an additional session and did it not in the studio because I knew then I could get the mom to be a little farther away was where the mom would, would not do what I needed because she's the mom, she knows best. And so where she could not surrender leadership to me and as a an orchestra conductor of 50 muscles in every phase, I need all, you know, I need to be the leader.
Raymond: 00:46:56 Yeah, yeah. Oh man. That all right there that past 10 minutes or so, it was just fantastic tips that I know that a lot of people listening who like to photograph children are going to take and implement that themselves. And if they don't implement it then, then that's on them because that was just pure gold. That was pure gold right there. But I kind of want to, they will, I want to go back because you talked about something interesting there, which was no, this was a few minutes ago, which was talking about, you know, revealing all the photos in person. Right. Doing that so that you knew what it was that your clients actually wanted and what it was that they you know, as you said, put their dollars down for. And when we met at imaging, you had told me that by simply being there with my clients when I reveal my work would essentially double my income. Yes. Can you tell me more about how and why that is?
Mid: 00:47:51 You are listening to the free version of the beginner photography podcast where each week you learn how world-class photographers see and capture the world around them. If you want to hear the extended interview with their best business tips to learn how to make money with your camera and then become a premium member today by heading over to beginner photography, podcast.com and click the premium membership button to join now.
Raymond: 00:48:15 So yeah, again, thank you so much for for sharing all that insight for sure. I know that's, that's going to help a lot of people. And if just one person decided to start doing IPS, then then, then I know it was helpful and that's something that I've been thinking about for a long time. I just have all those mental, you know, reasons why I can't do it or, or won't do it, but
Luci Dumas: 00:48:34 Yeah. Okay. So if you could work for half as many clients and make three times as much.
Raymond: 00:48:40 Oh man, she sounds fantastic. What'd you get over those? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Anybody who says no is a liar for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So I want to talk about the photographers right now who are listening because oftentimes this whole, this, this whole thing ties into this, which is that oftentimes, you know, new photographers don't have the gear or the resources that most professional photographers do. The theme of this year for the podcast is make, do, make more, do more, and just make, do with what you got because it's better than you probably realize. Right. Can you tell me about a time where maybe you had to make, do with what you had to to get something to work.
Luci Dumas: 00:49:23 So I've always been a minimalist and had just what was necessary. Now it's necessary to have backups. They don't have to be the best in the world or as good as your main equipment. But if all things fall apart, you gotta have it. You can't be like, Oh, too bad my camera broke. Sorry about your wedding or, you know, any of the above. You don't, it doesn't look good. I'm in the studio. Like I, I don't spend money unless I know I can make that back unless it's a pure toy that I know is a treat. You know, I don't know a camera or a point and shoot or something that I know is going to be for fun, like upgrading to the newest iPhone. I wanted those three lenses. That was a treat. But yes, I always, when I go to trade shows, it's like, how quickly can I recover that?
Luci Dumas: 00:50:30 So I did, I do a lot of shopping for children's furniture at secondhand stores or antique stores that might also have some some things that are not expensive. So I don't just buy the newest, latest, greatest. I also will buy gently used certified equipment if I need a new lens or something like that. You know, didn't that, those Vivitar two 80 fives were like $85 when the fancy one that went with my camera was 300. So, you know, I, it just a mindset of I want the money in my pocket more than a fancy equipment. That being said, I will never make do with a PC anymore because too many bad ones. Huh? I need it. Well, no, because I just didn't ever, I just was never comfortable with the I dunno the whole, it just doesn't think like I knew,
Raymond: 00:51:40 I think like a Mac. Oh, I see. I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. As a, as, as, as somebody who switched in high school. I completely understand. What it is that you're talking about for sure. So, yeah. Thank you.
Luci Dumas: 00:51:53 There used to be like I used to put a black stocking material or netting over the land. Like it used to be more D DYI. Oh yeah. Tricks and things to get an image that you wanted. Yes. Yeah. I love that. I'm also, time is money, so if something's going to take a lot of time to create, I, I rather go buy the thing cause I don't like yippee. I get to, you know, if I'm going to be crafty it's going to be for something artsy.
Raymond: 00:52:28 Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I like that. Okay. so as somebody who's been photographing children for so long, I'm sure that when you, you know, meet somebody and they, you tell them, you know, I photograph children or you were to tell them that I photograph children. I'm sure that one of the questions that you probably get asked the most is how, like, what's one thing that I can do to take better pictures of my kids?
Luci Dumas: 00:52:51 Have somebody else do it? No. so put them in good light. Figure out like you got windows in your home. Think of those as as soft boxes and see like if you're, if you turn your back to a window and have them face the camera, you're going to get nice light. Yeah, I do this when I'm training about this topic, I, I have people photograph the, where would Lucy sit assignment. And to imagine that there's a round table and Lucy's going out to dinner and she's going to pick where she sits and there's one, there's a big window. Where would she sit? So it depends. If I'm on a date and I want to look really cute, then I took, I face the window cause I'm going to get that really nice direct light. If I'm on a date with a friend, I want to look, I want them to look great so that I can enjoy their beauty. So I sit with my back to the window. If I'm with a photographer friend, we probably both sit sideways to the window so that we both have Rembrandt lighting.
Raymond: 00:54:17 That's hilarious. That little exercise that's so good because immediately in your head you can visualize what it would look like no matter where it is that that you've set.
Luci Dumas: 00:54:25 Right. That's great. That's great. And also the word smile, I think, I wish nobody ever told kids to smile because a real smile comes from the involuntary muscles around our eyes. And that pull up the corners of our mouth. We cannot enlist. We're models and well-trained like I can do it. You know, I, let's see. Okay, I need a minute. Now see, I'm still like fake. In the, in the right mood I can create a natural smile because I do something to warm my, my emotions and then it, it comes out through the eyes. Does that make sense? So when I say to kids, when you say smile that go like this, right? There's no response. When I'm like, Hey, are you married? Do you have a boyfriend or sing them a song or whisper something. They react emotionally and then I, I would have, it's good thing I didn't ever have to do this, but it would have been a good sharp shooter because I'm good at that anticipation of something and clicking right when, when the authenticity is revealed.
Luci Dumas: 00:55:50 I've, I've been to workshops where the photographer is teaching and, and I'll watch and I'll see the moment and then they click the moment after for me, for my, you know, for what I'm looking for. So developing that quick draw and that ability to evoke emotions and then recognize when they happen. That's the magic, the word smile. When we go like that, that is considered threatening as people. I see it. That's how we read it because it's artificial, whereas a natural expression, whether the teeth are showing or not, whether it's a smile or not. As humans, we are highly trained as you know, from before we were born to recognize what all the responses, those 50 muscles, when they move, when we think and feel we are, you know, it's in our DNA to recognize what it means and be able to translate feelings.
Raymond: 00:56:58 So evoke that emotion rather than just say,
Luci Dumas: 00:57:01 Smile. Wow. Yeah. Now, okay, I'm going to give you my two magic tricks. Are you ready? Of course. Yes. Since we're, and this is fun because like I said, other podcasts I've been on, we've talked a lot about business. So I love to also teach this other side. Okay. There's two words that work really great for me, especially if there's a group. So I'm farther away. One is the word. Yes. So everyone's posed. And then, and I'm, I'm ready. You know, I've got everything, all the little details, and then I say, okay, now watch it. I'll say yes and hold the [inaudible] and yes, makes you feel something. So if people say yes, if you look at my face, yes, this engaged after a while and also having everybody take, let's all take a nice deep breath that gets an energy going. And then, then when yes, doesn't work anymore and the breathing doesn't, then the word monkey, see if someone like freezes right there. Yeah. I've gotten seven different possible expressions from you, Raymond. And if, if it doesn't capture, like most people, Kate will, you know, it'll live in them up. And then if it hasn't worked all the way with somebody, then I start making monkey noises and then that, whew. And then that does it. See it look, click, click, click, click, click. Like I just got your pose right there. That was perfect.
Raymond: 00:58:41 Great. I was just trying to imagine myself at a a at a wedding, try and do a, a to sound like a monkey. How great that would be. It's funny that whole, that whole yes thing. Where I thought you were going with this is one thing that I do at weddings is sometimes like, you know, everybody's kinda getting into that position, especially when it comes to those family formals and stuff. Yeah. You know, I can see that everybody's just kinda stiff and I will just instinctively, even though the photo isn't perfect, I will just start saying yes. Yes. Like this is good. Yes. And then everybody's like, Oh, we're good. Oh, okay. And then that kind of loosens them up a little bit more. Well. Yeah, but your way I think is a little bit better. A little bit better, cause that gets them more involved. I'm going to try that next time.
Luci Dumas: 00:59:26 Even if just, I mean, just saying the word yes, like cheese is not a smile word shoes, but yes, it makes the corners go up even if you're not feeling it.
Raymond: 00:59:36 Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I love it.
Luci Dumas: 00:59:38 Some people say money because that'll make people smile. But the actual word money doesn't make your face look good and they'll say sex and
Raymond: 00:59:50 Yeah, no, still kind of goes more, more sideways.
Luci Dumas: 00:59:54 It, well it's like thinking about it, but I, I don't like to offend. And so, you know, maybe with some groomsmen you might might say that once or twice, but I just discovered the word yes. And then monkey was a recent addition probably in the last 10 years. That's great. That's great. And some other tricks whispering when you're working with kids. Or this one was you know, it's like safe cracking, especially with kids. What is going to get this one to respond? And I was having some challenges with kids and parents like getting out of pose or moving their hands or moving their heads or something. So I started singing the alphabet song as I sang it. I would tell them what to do if they weren't doing what I want. So like a, B, C Ray, Raymond, sit up straight. X ID put your hand down Charlie.
Raymond: 01:00:59 Gotcha.
Luci Dumas: 01:01:07 It worked. I was like, Oh, I'm a genius. Cause it was a hard session. I remember specifically when I discover that and then whispering Oh, okay. So I'm going to give you one last like gold ready. I love gold. Yes. So parents love pictures where kids are looking deeply in a way that like you just feel like you see their soul. Okay. So on a closeup of a child, I will say, can you see my eye through this lens? Can you see me winking at you? What color are my eyes? And they'll just start leaning in eminent, here's my camera. So they'll just start like, and the click, you get a great,
Raymond: 01:01:58 Yeah. Yeah, that's a great way to make them look right down the barrel of that camera. Yes. Without being too too over the top. Right.
Luci Dumas: 01:02:08 And then another winter, you know, that my average sale is three to eight wall portraits. And part of the secret to that is as well as things that I know people will love. So when I put a child on the ground looking up at me and so their face fills the frame pretty much. Those are winners. Yeah. Yeah. Especially if, let's say it's late in the day, the sun's gone down. Everything's kinda dull. If you put them low on there looking up, there's a beautiful light source above your head that is not a good light source straight on because it's coming from the top and that makes shadows in the eyes. But if you're up and they're down, then they're looking up at the sky and the light is so beautiful. And that positioning is how parents see their children over and over and over again. And it's a beautiful, beautiful angle.
Raymond: 01:03:08 Yeah. I'm going to go out there right now and take Parker and and get that shot. Try to get her to look in my eyes and then put her in open shade. Well, it's very cold outside. We're, we're, we're below freezing, so I think I'm going to stay inside today, but next time we go outside, I'm definitely going to try that
Luci Dumas: 01:03:27 If you're in side. Yeah. But still try the, where she's looking up at you and the other, you know, put your back to the window and, and have her see if she can see in it. So one other tip I see all the time people are like, Oh, I love my 85 millimeter lens, or I love my 70 to two to 200. The challenge with that, besides that you can't get as much variety of composition, so there's not as much to sell because you have to be tight. Yes. Right. It's not, but the other thing is you have to be farther away. And with children being closer with my bland in a, most photographers were using the one-fifty lenses, their standard. And, and I use the one 20 that has a little bit of a macro feature. The other problem with the 70 to 200 is the focus length is about three feet, two and a half feet away.
Luci Dumas: 01:04:35 So you can't shoot down on kids cause it won't be in focus. So my favorite lens is 24 to one Oh five F four. As I can get a portrait focal length in the 100, I can do some wide and have you know, people small and lots of scenery. And then I can do that mid range as well. And it's a really nice sharp lens and I've sold thousands of wall portraits, you know, to me, sharpness and variety trumps Boca. And last year simply doing single you know, three quarters are, are fairly small. An a day to day lens. I also don't like changing lenses because that's when dirt and dust gets in your lens every time you change. But then I also, five is a good variety right there. Yes. I always have my 70 to 200 in my other camera body so that, let's say there's a crowd and then little Sally is doing something really cute holding onto daddy, then I can grab that, I can zoom, you know, I leave my tripod and I zoom in and I can get this really tender moment that's happening within the bigger group.
Luci Dumas: 01:06:04 So yeah. So then I have the full range.
Raymond: 01:06:07 This was you, you promise one golden nugget, but this was a, this was a whole bag of gold, right? That is what that was. Yeah. So let's see. I want to thank you so much for coming on and sharing everything that you did. Before I let you go, can you let the listeners know where they can find out more about you and follow you online?
Luci Dumas: 01:06:28 Luci Dumas coaching is a great place to to connect. Send me contact info there. There's also a couple of little gifts. If you go there, you'll see an ebook and then you'll also see another tab that has a seven tips for getting ideal clients. I also have a podcasts, Lucy, the profitable photographer. And, and the website you can find also on Luci Dumas coaching or the PR, the de, the profitable photographer, podcast.com. I would like to offer you 10 of your listeners and opportunity for a strategy session. We do a deep dive into your goals and dreams. We take a look at some challenges and you walk away with a lot of clarity about where you want to go. So there'll be a link for setting up a quick call to apply for one of those 10 in the show notes. Or you can also message me, email me@lucywithaneyeatlucydumas.com I have a Facebook page called the profitable photographer page, and then a private group I'd love you to join called the profitable photographer. So that's, that's a whole bunch of ways to connect and I would absolutely love to support your listeners in whatever way I can.
Raymond: 01:08:00 Wow. Wow. Yeah, thank you so much. That's a, that's obviously not only huge time commitment, but a very, very valuable gift that you just gave to the listener. So
Luci Dumas: 01:08:10 Yeah, it's a $400 usually $400 session. Wow. So yeah, take
Raymond: 01:08:15 You up on that for sure. Like I said, I'm going to put that in the show notes so that anybody can find it and then go ahead and sign up. But again, Lucy, I just have to say thank you so much for coming on and sharing everything that you did. It was a pleasure to reconnect with you and I look forward to chatting with you in the future. Same here. My biggest take away from this episode was just the amount of care that Lucy gives to her, you know, to her subjects that she's photographing. She doesn't look at herself as somebody who's taking a photo. She looks at herself as somebody who is trying to help them achieve what it is that they want. Right. And that is a huge difference being that person whose job it is to do nothing but help instead of, you know, just, just trying to take photos and make money.
Raymond: 01:09:09 So from helping your clients look their best just for the shoe to finding the right print for their home. A to Z, she knows that it's more than just taking photos and it was just great to hear. I mean essentially it's all the same thing that you know, we've heard, you know, photography is a service when it comes to a service you want to be helpful. But the way that Lucy broke it down today was just, was just great and made it so, so simple. So Lucy, if you are listening, once again, thank you so much for being so open. I really appreciate it. And I know that the listeners do too. So that is it. Remember that enrollment for light room one-on-one closest Thursday, March 5th at midnight. So go ahead and click that link in the show notes to learn all about the program and the $632 worth of bonuses that are included. You're going to love them. So that is it for this week. Until next week, I want you to make, do I want you to make more. I want you to do more and I want you to make do with the gift that you got because I promise you it is better than you think. Alright? Talk to you next week.
Outtro: 01:10:20 Thank you for listening to the beginner photography podcast. If you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review in iTunes, keep shooting, and we'll see you next week.