Gerard Exupery is a New York photographer who just published his new book Subway 1975-1985 which is filled with photos from the New York subway system taken in the late 70s and early 80s. In this chat we talk about the flow of life that happens on the New Yor subway system and the challenged of capturing an era.
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In This Episode You'll Learn:
When Gerard knew photography was going to plan an important part of his life
The hardest part about photography to learn when he got started
What it was about the subway that captured Gerards attention
How to find the decisive moment while in the flow of live on the subway
Who are some of Gerards photography influences
How Gerard put together a long term project that spanned a decade
Some trouble Gerard got into while shooting in NYC in the late 70s
What the process was of choosing photos out of a decade worth of images to put into his book
What Advice Gerard would give to anyone wanting to take on a long term project
Resources:
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Full Episode Transcription:
Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically by Temi.com and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.
Raymond Hatfield: 00:00:00 When did you know that photography was going to play an important role in your life?
Gerard Exupery: 00:00:04 A good question. Big question. Photography has been the only thing I've ever wanted to do from about the time I was eight years old.
Gerard Exupery: 00:00:17 Never really wanted to do anything else. And when I did it made me profoundly sad and yeah, I knew that this is what I was meant for.
Raymond Hatfield: 00:00:29 So I know that a lot of I think, I don't remember when I got my first camera the first time I, my parents let me play with a disposable camera or anything like that. But eight years old is still pretty young to, I know, get an idea of what it is that you want to do. So what was that time like? Were you given a camera and then what were you shooting? How did you know?
Gerard Exupery: 00:00:53 One of my earliest memories and one of my few memories of my father was him kneeling behind me while I'm holding his Raleigh. I think it was a Raleigh court. I don't know. He's helping me study it taking a picture of the Verrazano bridge, which was Zen under construction of a ship underneath it. And he helped me take that picture and it was the first picture I ever took. He died about a year later and the thing about photography for me has always been about at least at that age, trying to hold onto the past, you know, trying to hold onto handheld hold onto the past. And so it's always had this kind of profound meaningful for me, you know the idea of looking at something that is already gone, you know, that and here you have it in front of you. It's magic. It's magical. So always there was nothing I ever wanted to do other than photography.
Raymond Hatfield: 00:01:55 Oh man. That's a great story. So when, when you first, you know, obviously you've got that camera, your dad was helping you take that first photo. So you weren't fully in charge of the camera or the, of the photo that you were taking when you did understand that there was some you know, technicals involved in photography. Was there anything that you struggled with to learn? And that aspect?
Gerard Exupery: 00:02:19 Well, I'd say preteen or years. I was allowed to go into New York city and at the time around journal square Harold square camera barn, olden camera, all these old, which people are probably going, what the hell? You know, we're just these old big camera stores. And I used to go into camera barn and for a buck, I could get a stack of old photography, magazines, popular photography, modern photography, some European photography magazines. And I didn't have enough money to buy a camera. I had no camera at that point, but I read every single article I could possibly read. So I understood f-stops shutter speeds, you know, correlation that's the field zone focusing how to process, film, all that stuff I learned before I ever got a chance to actually do it. So when I did it, it was like, Oh yeah. Oh, okay. I know how to do this. And, and and so when I did get a camera eventually, and I was allowed to start processing film in my house, convincing my mother, that it was not going to blow the house up that it was almost second nature by that, at that point, I had a very what's the word, big imagination. I don't know.
Raymond Hatfield: 00:03:43 So when I'm always interested in, in this sort of aspect of it, because when I came along in photography, the first camera that I had was a digital camera. Of course I quickly not quickly, but I went back to film. I understood film, but at some point I understood how photography kind of worked, but that was through a digital camera. Right. I understood that I could take pictures. I understood kind of a little bit about composition and how to see that light. But when it came time to, even when I understood what an F stop was, how shutter speed kind of reacted to a photo I still had. So I had to put in some work to get it to all kind of come together. Did you ever have any sort of like aha moment of like, Oh, like I knew what this thing was, but now that I see this photo and how I shot it, it makes sense.
Gerard Exupery: 00:04:31 Mmm. I had you know, I was like I believe freshman high school, sophomore when I got my first camera and I started taking pictures for the school newspaper and local newspaper sports and things. And I thought I was going to be having a lot more fun than I was. And I actually got very bored and you know, I, my dream was I was going to be like David Hemmings and blow up. I was going to ride around New York city, my turtle, neck sweater, and my Jaguar XKE models, you know, and this is going to be great. And but you know, here I was just a schlub and, you know, kid in high school. And so, you know, I stuck with the photography. Girls liked it you know and my girlfriend and my senior year perm, her mother, I've standing in her, in the kitchen there and her mother said you're the, you're the photographer, aren't you?
Gerard Exupery: 00:05:33 I go, yeah. And she goes, well, I said, yeah, sort of. And she goes, Oh, I want to show you something. And she had the show catalog from art. Diane Arbus is 1972 retrospective at the metropolitan museum. And I had never seen anything like that. It blew my mind. I mean, wow, you can actually take pictures like that. And, and I knew I thought, I mean, I have goosebumps even thinking about it now. It was just the most amazing realization. And you know, and even though I'd been looking at all these photography magazines, you know, a lot of them really didn't cover our best or who else would I say Dwayne Michaels? Well, maybe more him Yosef could Delta, I mean another one and I, and I said, that's what I want to do. And it rekindled that idea of that photography is, is magic. There's something very special about being able to see and transcribed onto paper or now screens, you know, that vision and have it be so unique
Raymond Hatfield: 00:06:49 And that you don't just have to shoot sports for the rest of your life, if you don't want to.
Gerard Exupery: 00:06:53 Like, you know, it's interesting. I worked as a photographer's assistant at fashion. Hey, I don't know. Do you remember the Ilford boxes and film that used to have a black and white woman? There were like ads that had a black and white woman, like standing next to each other. Oh, that's how old I am at any rate. The guy I worked for did those shots and he did a lot of fashion. And within about a week, I realized that God, I hate this, you know, for what, you know, I realized that the business of photography had very little to do with what I wanted to do. And that when I tried to I did, I had a couple of jobs, shooting pictures of things. I shot ads and stuff, but, you know, just misery, not, not miserable, but just not happy. And the only time I was really happy when, so I was just roaming around and looking and seeing so I forgot what the question was
Raymond Hatfield: 00:07:57 When we were talking kind of about well, that, that's fine because the next part of the question there was now, now a little introduction you have just come out with a book called subway, I think in 75 to 1985, which is a collection of photos that you shot while you were roaming around. As you said in your element there in your, in your happy spot, just a photos down in the subway. Now I'm trying to wrap my head around the letting my, now I know that he's only seven. I know the Charlie's only seven, but I'm trying to wrap my head around letting a 13 or 14 year old, just roam around New York city on their own. And it's terrifying my, my Midwest mind here, I suppose. But what was it about the subway system that really captured your attention enough to really shoot it with intention?
Gerard Exupery: 00:08:46 Well I actually started doing that when I started attending school of visual arts. So I was 18 and that's a little easier. Okay. I got it. But my mom, you know, it's funny when I was like 14 years old, I said, is it, can I go into the city? And she goes, you know, if you go with a friend or you go with your sister and she was very cool about it, cause she grew up in Brooklyn. So, you know and she was one of these mothers who,
Gerard Exupery: 00:09:18 You know, there are things out there in the world that are kind of dangerous, but if you don't learn how to handle them, when you're young, you will not handle it very well when you get older. Ooh. Wow. So, I mean, you know, I mean she was not, I mean, Dyphus, wasn't gonna come in and take us away, but she was definitely a real world type of person. So, but the, the subway stuff, because I was riding the subway every day to go to school of visual arts, I was coming in from New Jersey and visual arts was on 23rd street. And so and when I started going, I, you know, I,
Gerard Exupery: 00:10:00 It was so exciting and new and, you know, it's like, there's was so much to see it was overload, but riding the subway it was it was kind of easy because try X at 400 or 800 always F to 2.8 at a 30th or 60th of a second. I, I, my camera was a Nikon F two with the standard prism finder. There was no meter. So I, you know, so I figured, Oh, this is good. I at least look at something I can use. And but initially when I started to take pictures on the subway, I had real anxiety issues about it because, you know, you don't want to get punched and you don't know how you're going to be received. So, and I was, I was an anxious, nervous, and, you know, I pretty much might take a picture, might not go, I'd go to class, go home.
Gerard Exupery: 00:10:56 And then, you know, one day I'm sitting in the subway on the train and there are these three women sitting across from me. It's a shot that I still have that Monroe put as the key shot in the piece that just did about it. And I remember thinking to myself, you know, if this is what you really want to do, you better, you know, get a pair, grow a pair, and either do it and find out you can't do it or do it and just do it. And so, you know, I started pretty much covertly shooting pictures on the subway, which was not necessarily a good feeling and it didn't engender. It. Didn't good feelings about me from the subjects. Obviously new Yorkers are, are, are very kind people, however, they don't, you know, they'll tell you exactly what they think.
Gerard Exupery: 00:11:53 And so after a while I realized that if, you know, look, I was, I was a kid 1918, 1920 that if people didn't perceive me as a threat, Oh, here's this guy with this camera. And you know, I would sit down with it on the subway. And, and so the next thing after covertly taking the pictures was I would take the pets and prism off the top, look down into it, like, look at it like, Oh, what's wrong with this thing. I don't know how to use this camera. You know? And by the time I had played around like that for a while, people would stop that, you know, people just slept and then I would take my pictures. All right. And, and that even bothered me because it's not bothering me, but I thought there is a way to do this.
Gerard Exupery: 00:12:40 That's a little bit more honest. And basically it came, you know, as I said, if you're not a threat, if you come across as vulnerable. And I think that's the most important thing that you take a picture of somebody you may ask, you may not. And if you don't and you see that somebody is upset, you know, there are many things that you can say to if you, as a situation where even making it a better situation, that you can take more pictures by by then talking, you know, I used to say, Oh, this is for school. You know, you have such an interesting look or stuff like that. And then it became it really would depend on my mood because sometimes I felt almost overtly, like I'm going, I'm going in there and take pictures and I don't care what anybody thinks. And when I looked back at a lot of those subway pictures, I think I must've been a real Raymond Hatfield: 00:13:42 Yeah.
Gerard Exupery: 00:13:42 Sometimes. But but that bit about being vulnerable about being honest with your subject, even if you're not even talking, you know, they see you with the camera, obviously they know you're going to do something with the camera. And it's not it's just not it may be, it's only in your own head, my own head, you know, that I'm not a threatening person and I certainly wouldn't do anything to hurt anybody. And so me taking this picture is the most natural thing in the world. Don't you think? So? Hmm.
Raymond Hatfield: 00:14:11 You think that, that's it, is that, is that how you embody being vulnerable to essentially strangers? Is that if you, just the way that you carry yourself or is there something, that's it the way that you carry yourself?
Gerard Exupery: 00:14:22 You know I'm a big fan and I felt this not because I was broke, but because I really believe that you get one camera, one lens four or five rolls of film in your pocket and don't come back until nine o'clock at night, you know, or 10 o'clock at night. And so, you know, at that time, people weren't walking around with F twos or threes, or, you know, like us, it was more of an unusual thing. So the fact that I had a camera that wasn't too obtrusive you know, just having the camera, you would gain, get attention not hiding. It was a lot of it, you know? Like I said, they see you with a camera, obviously you have it for some reason. It's like my, my favorite question. Is there a film in that camera? No, of course not. I always carry this camera out. No filming whatsoever.
Raymond Hatfield: 00:15:28 If you had to guess how many times have you been asked that question? More than a hundred. Oh, no way. Yeah, not so much. I imagine. Go ahead. I'm sorry. I was just going to say, I can't imagine somebody asking you if I had a memory card in my camera, like that would just be such a ridiculous, like, no, yes, of course. It's a piece of jewelry. Yeah. Wow. Well, today I feel like I've seen a lot of people who just wear cameras as jewelry. But yeah, I would imagine the backend in the late seventies, early eighties, that was, that was not the case. And I try, you know, personally, I try to think back to what it must have been like in that time when you had to have a camera, because nowadays not only are people already distracted by their phones, but everybody has a camera on them. Right. And when you're in the subway, late seventies, early eighties, can you walk me through what that atmosphere was like? Was it just dead quiet? Nobody was talking. Was everybody reading the paper? Cause I know that they weren't watching YouTube on their phones. Right.
Gerard Exupery: 00:16:30 Well, you know, it's interesting. I was looking at when I was doing the book, first of all, my old pictures really bothered me to a certain extent because you know, those are, people can look at those and, and those are the first pictures that anybody ever said that they weren't good or nice or whatever. And you know, I've done a lot of digital and I have my camera with me every single day. And I've done a lot of pictures since then, but there's just something about that era, which is a Voke, something in people, especially in the city, you know, like pictures of the East village and during the whole punk thing. You know, now the entire youth villages Starbucks and God, I don't know. I mean, it's just gap. And, and when I was roaming around, it was like, Hey, you know what, don't stop walking fast until you hit the subway.
Gerard Exupery: 00:17:26 If it's after 10 o'clock at night, you know? Wow. but it was the differences, like looking at the pictures in the book of, of people on the subway, they are reading, they're looking at each other, they're looking at you, the hanging onto the strap that, you know, there's a rhythm because when the, when the subway is moving along, you know, that you hear the, the gap in the tracks, there's a clock and there's a rhythm to it. It always was like music to me. And now when I look at the pictures that I've taken in the subway in digital times,
Raymond Hatfield: 00:18:07 Everybody's just looking at their phones.
Gerard Exupery: 00:18:09 Yeah. And it's, you know, I've always loved technology. I'm a, usually a first adapter adopter of, of, of things. And I really don't believe that this technology has been the best thing for our culture. I mean, it's wonderful to have information at your fingertips to be able to take a decent picture with it or a video, but it's this I dunno, I, I wonder if I would have gone ahead with, in photography if I had paid so much attention to that thing.
Raymond Hatfield: 00:18:45 Wow. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. And do you think that there's a lot of photographers or a lot of potential photographers, I suppose, who are missing out on a lot of shots because maybe they're preoccupied.
Gerard Exupery: 00:19:02 Yeah. I don't know. I think it was, there's a will. There's a way. And if, if that's, if you know, social documentation street work, fine art, whatever you want to call it, that if that's really something for you, you're going to find a way to do it. And that is not necessarily going to stop you from it. It may stop you from getting a particular shot or whatever, but it's only pictures, you know what I mean? So you'll get the next one. And, and I am, I am very fortunate and I think I'm grateful for the fact that I learned about all the analog things, because they are so applicable to the digital world. And when, when I have explained to people with very nice cameras in the digital age, no, ma'am the the correlation between f-stop shutter speed, one goes up and the other goes down, you know, that it's, it's the same in terms of exposure, but these are things that are happening. And it's like, wow. You know, it's like with, with no real concept of what's going, going on. And I feel very fortunate and getting back to the Fujis F stop shutter speed that you, any Fuji camera, you can pick up and not read the manual and get a good picture because, you know, f-stops shutter speeds ISO or, you know, and that's all you need to know to make a picture if you know what those things are.
Raymond Hatfield: 00:20:31 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So taking a photo, like knowing how to properly expose an image and actually taking a photo that maybe as compelling or an interesting photo to look at, or I think we can both agree two completely different things. I can see a perfectly exposed photo of a, have an orange, I don't know, but it not be compelling to me, but these photos that you've taken on the subway, even though some of them maybe, you know, just because of the nature of film wouldn't today, be technically clean or great photos just because of film in the way that it is, they're still really compelling to look at. And I always like to think of the Henry Cartier, [inaudible] a term, which is just the decisive moment, which is for those who don't know, just capturing the height of the visual elements that happen during the flow of life.
Gerard Exupery: 00:21:23 If you don't know who he is, you should,
Raymond Hatfield: 00:21:25 You should. Yeah. Definitely wanted to look up for sure. So can you talk about just what is that flow of life on the subway and then some of those challenges that you faced to capture it?
Gerard Exupery: 00:21:39 You know if it's a challenge I'm doing something wrong because I think that there's a and I noticed this very early on you know, you're not going to see things until you've been kind of tenderized by life until you've had the experiences of that are universal falling in love, getting in a fight, fist fight or something, you know, getting arrested or, you know, or, or, you know, heartbreak, disappointment being drunk getting fired from a job that these are the things that create in you, I believe, or at least in may empathy for the people I'm looking at. And for being able to see something that somebody else might not have noticed. You know, I love photography of all sorts. There's a, there's a print in a museum, modern art by George Tice, which I have stood in front of many times and I keep falling into it.
Gerard Exupery: 00:22:45 It's such a, it's this gorgeous print it's of a, a rest stop on the New Jersey turnpike. But for me, it's always the people it's always about that. And so there is a flow one when I would go out and taking pictures, sometimes I just wouldn't feel it. But other times it would be like, Oh, like on the subway with the rhythm of the, of the noise of the tracks and the train, you know, that you see things almost an arrhythmic way, it's like music. And every shot may not be a wonderful image, but you think it is. And, and and that, it's almost like a feeling of wellbeing that you're relating to your subject and you're getting this feedback. And for me, and I've talked to other photographers about this, the idea that it's an actual physical reaction when I take it, when I see the sh a picture, a street shot like that one, right.
Gerard Exupery: 00:23:46 You know, of the peep to kissing. Right. You know, it's like, my exposures are sort of crappy sometimes because I've got one opportunity to get that decisive moment, that picture. So you know, I'm not always perfect technically, but when I see that moment, it's, it's a gut sensation and, and, you know, it's like, I always kind of know what it's gonna look like on paper, even the digital too, I feel the same way, you know, I don't have to what they call it shrimping. I don't have to look into it the screen. Yeah. Because although it's nice. I got to say, it's, it's quite comforting. It's either you feel it or you don't feel it, and if you don't feel it yes. I think it just means you haven't lived long enough. Hmm. Or had enough of life's experiences.
Raymond Hatfield: 00:24:42 That's something that's got to marinate for a little bit. I like, I like that idea. I like that idea a lot. When it w a lot of times, because, you know, well, let me, let me formulate my thought here. I think I love that idea so much because it really gives a lot of validity to the type of photos that is that you're taking. I don't remember who said it. I always get it confused. It might've been Angela Adams, but I believe that he said every every photo has two people in it, the viewer and the the photographer, the photographer, and the viewer. And that idea to me, I don't know if there's ever been a quote, which I should really be more acquainted with it, but I don't think that there's ever been a quote about photography that resonated with me more.
Raymond Hatfield: 00:25:29 And it's like you said, I mean, that just makes sense. It's those life experiences that you have that help you tell a story in your own unique way that help you see something maybe as it's happening or right before it's happening. And this kind of goes back to the whole conversation that we had on cell phones. You know, how much are you not living by being on your cell phone? Right. Which, I mean, obviously I don't want to make this, I know that cell phones have done a lot of good and I love my cell phone. And I probably spend too much time on my cell phone. But I mean, that's still, that's still, is that, is that validity it's like so much comes from what it is that you live through? How can we do more of that? How can we do more of that? Yeah. Do you think that you have as much do you think that your life experiences, as you said give you more of an influence on the photos that you take versus looking at photos of other acclaimed photographers?
Gerard Exupery: 00:26:32 Absolutely. I mean you know, just going back to what, you know, that Ansul Adams' quote, I always have thought, but only really into words in the last few years that yeah, the Mo
Gerard Exupery: 00:26:48 The most important part of that photograph is you as a photographer. And what does that, what does that photograph at least look I understand landscape, I understand commercial work, but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about street, weird stuff. You know, I'm talking, I'm talking about the this deeply personal relationship you're having with seeing and yeah, it's about you. And, you know you know, I have a kind of a hard time. I don't like feeling I had a pretty crappy time growing up and I've had some experiences that definitely have made me much more empathetic to my fellow human being. When I first moved moved to New York and it was going to school of visual arts. I had a friend who lived on the upper West side and worked part time and the camera store on 88th and Broadway West side camera.
Gerard Exupery: 00:27:50 And I went up to, and so it was only like I knew him for maybe three or four weeks going to school. And so he said, Hey, why don't you come up later in the afternoon? And let's go get some Chinese food or something. There's this restaurant in my building. So I went up and I met him at this store and he and I sat behind the counter while they were doing what they were doing, and the place was being got robbed. And three guys came in, one guy has a gun. There's a guy behind a register I'm in the middle, my friends over here. And it was a very thin store. And you know, I was very tiny and a guy says to the fellow behind the register give me the money and for whatever stupid reason, the kid turned off the register, put the key in his pocket and walked in front of me and from my buddy and up the back steps to the, what was the manager's office. You tell me if this is too graphic, what's coming up. Right. And so the guy's falling with the gun and I, you know, I'm standing there like this and my buddy is too. And I'm going to tell you
Gerard Exupery: 00:29:01 Your bladder definitely wants to let go when you're that scared. Oh, I can't imagine. You know, I was concentrating so hard and not pissing myself. And so, and as, as the, as skip was his name yet walks in front of me, the guy sneaker was standing in front of me, has this blade. The cops called it an Oh Oh seven. It was huge jumps over the counter. Skip starts to run up the back steps. And he, we heard him say something to the manager who he knew was up there, Nikki, and heard this pop pop. And I thought, Oh man, that guy shot skip in reality. What happened was skip had trapped down in the manager, shot the guy who was about to stab him. And then the guy came out from behind the curtains and he stumbled and he landed right on top of me. And I thought I was stabbed and he and I fell to the ground. And this guy is on top of me. And, and, you know, I I'm struggling to get out from underneath them. And
Gerard Exupery: 00:30:02 So it was a Bosch robbery. The other two guys leave the guy who fell on top and he's dead. There, I mean the funniest part though funny was I was, I call nine one one. And as soon as I hung up the phone on Broadway and upper Manhattan there's islands that runs up be separating uptown and downtown sides. And, you know, used to be a lot of homeless bombs or whatever, you know, setting, that's not politically correct homeless people sitting on the ventures, drinking or doing whatever. And all of a sudden these two homeless guys come in. One of them is holding a gun and I'm like, Holy shit, we're going to get robbed again. And there were two undercover cops. They were there in like seconds. All right. So all of this is just to say that that was my very early education to life in the big city.
Gerard Exupery: 00:30:54 And I got to tell you at that time, the upper West side is not what it is today. You know, yeah. It was, it was a little dangerous at times. And that taught me how to pay attention. Cause those guys had come into the store, each of them separately over the course of the hour or so that I had been there. And, you know, and it only occurred to me after all three of them come walking into this store. And, you know, it was that kind of awareness of like this hinky feeling, you know, you should go really go with what your guts are telling you. And that's directly applicable to roaming around the city taking pictures because I pride myself on being able to get along with just about anybody and the way that you do that is you go, you know, you can allow yourself to be, get into situations as long as you always know in the back of your head, who you are, what you're doing and how you're going to get out of there in case, you know, I've done things with drug dealers, not buying or anything, but taking pictures things like that in situations that you know, I wouldn't want my kids to get into.
Gerard Exupery: 00:32:12 Yeah. Okay. But at the same time I never felt unsafe. I never had a single bad thing ever happened to me in the city. And you might say that that robbery was a bad thing. I never had a bad dream about it ever. You know? I, I do probably have some PTSD from it, but I never, it was so kind of honest and poetic justice in a way. And educational and there've been other things, not like that, but other you know, somebody close dying or it just kinda tenderizes your, your emotions so that you become much more aware of what's going on around you, what the people around you are doing, how they're acting, are they happy, sad? Is this woman crying for some reason, you know, do I take a picture? Yeah. I won't be such a jerk if I take a picture. I'm sorry.
Raymond Hatfield: 00:33:06 Yeah, no, no, no, no, no. I was, I was captivated. That was a, that was a, that was an incredible story. And I'm, I'm sorry that one, you had to go through something like that. And two, I cannot imagine what that must have been like, but as you said, it really comes it's that life experience that you have that really forms your opinions as a photographer, is that yeah.
Gerard Exupery: 00:33:27 Yeah. Very much so at least as a street photographer, I think, and you know, I feel actually quite fortunate to have experienced that in survives, obviously, because of, of what it made me aware of. And that's like power, you know, when you have been through something and know that you can survive it or know how to behave next time or whatever, that's knowledge, that's real power, I think.
Raymond Hatfield: 00:33:57 So where do you think the, what do you think the information of, or the power of looking at other photographers photos? How does that play into who you are as a photographer?
Gerard Exupery: 00:34:10 I hated looking at other people's work for, for the longest time we had an assignment in, at school of visual arts first year, last assignment, pick your favorite photographer and take pictures that look like theirs. And I thought that was an insult and I didn't do it. All I did was submit my pictures and say, Oh, I shot like Dwayne Michaels. And I got an a and you know, something, I thought that was just like, I,
Gerard Exupery: 00:34:40 I never really thought my stuff was that good. I I'm, you know, I didn't show my stuff to anybody for like close to 40 years. My wife who used to be ex wife, lovely, lovely person who used to always say to me, you know, you should do something with these. And, and, you know, I did everything possible to avoid doing what I really wanted to do. And so I never thought they were all that good. I thought that people who said
Gerard Exupery: 00:35:08 That they were either didn't know what they were told. It was the what you, I don't think I don't want to from graft remarks, I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have me as a member. Yes. So what the hell do you know, telling me this, but, you know and it's interesting because only in the last six years or so, when I discovered flicker and just started posting things every once in a while I have met the most incredible friends. Well, one guy in particular, his name is Steve Fretz, F R E T Z. And his work really deserves to be looked at. He is he lives maybe 25 miles from me. And he was the first person who I ever talked to about photography who really thought about it as passionately as I did.
Gerard Exupery: 00:35:59 You know, who said, he said to me, you know, I think if I couldn't do it, I would just want to die. And, you know, it's kind of a strange thing to say to somebody, but I understood that completely, you know, it's like, you have to do it. Yeah. You know, I had basically no choice in the matter. And so I did not look at a lot of other people's photography as a regular thing, but Larry burrows Vietnam, war photographer incredible work Jamie Zelle, you know, I mean, it's not that you didn't have an appreciation for this commercial work. And so you know, of course, Arbus people working in that vein. And, and I did pay attention, but I didn't actively go looking because I didn't, because I was kind of afraid of confirming. Yeah. My stuff does suck, you know, and I really, how do you mean that?
Gerard Exupery: 00:36:57 How do you mean that? Because I would look at people's work and I go, Oh my God, that's incredible. And and then look at my own work and think, you know, mine is nothing like that before I realized, Hey, you know what? It really doesn't have to be like that. And why are you bothering to compare yourself to anybody else anyway, and all those other reasons they tell you and creativity classes about, you know, what's the killer of creativity, you know? Oh, that's been done before all that stuff. But you know, I was just I had just had a really bad attitude about
Gerard Exupery: 00:37:37 With wanting to make your Mark. Would that be it? Oh, shrink wants told me fear of success, fear of success. And but you know, it was only until slicker happened that people, a lot of people really started reacting positively towards the pictures. And I was, I was going through a really tough time. And I started seeing a therapist, this woman Sarah, very young. And I mean, I really had the gut because I was not having a good time. And it was interesting because after the first session or two, Oh, we ended up talking about was photography and how much it meant to me and why I didn't do it and all these other things. And she really helped me and being on flicker and getting the positive results and learning how to accept the fact that, you know, this stuff is it's good. It's worth doing something with you know, I, I think growing up and when I was younger, you know, ego is not a good thing for the creative process. I mean, you need a Lil, but when it becomes such a big thing, it's not good for me, it's not good for me. And then I realized that I had spent my wife, you know, I had a film and video production company. And
Gerard Exupery: 00:39:13 I would carry my Nikon around with me and take some pictures and all, but I was not doing what I did before or I'm doing now. And, and I was just so unhappy. I was just so unhappy, not really understanding why. And so for me, the whole experience of photography and relating to people, I can trace this all the way back to when I was a child, my father dying in the sense of loss and feeling that somehow. So you know, that if it wasn't my fault, then maybe I deserve this or, or whatever, you know, and, and, and that's how I processed it. And, and I really don't want to seem like one of, one of the, I don't want anybody ever to feel sorry for me. I really don't because all this stuff has made me able to see the things that I say, right.
Gerard Exupery: 00:40:04 The things I write, which I never wrote before, until flicker people would ask for a description and I would type a short paragraph. And then they got longer and longer and longer. And I always wanted to, I always want it to right. Going back many, many years, and I never did. And I don't know. It was just like either through therapy. And plus there are a lot of hormones that kick in when you get to be about 55, 56, 57, you know that you know what, it doesn't really matter. None of this shit matters. It's like either you do it or you don't do it, and if you're not doing it, it makes you unhappy. Well, guess what, you know, you should be doing it.
Raymond Hatfield: 00:40:43 Yeah.
Gerard Exupery: 00:40:43 Well, I hope you're going to edit that because that was really out there.
Raymond Hatfield: 00:40:47 No, you know, you keep saying that, but it's not, it's not each one of these stories is, is completely relevant to this whole interview. You know, when it comes to shooting things on the subway, I've always as somebody who doesn't ride the subway I've always seen the subway as something very chaotic as something that is just, something's always going on. Something is all over the place. And to be able to find some sort of meaning or, or some sort of just the way that it all works together, I suppose, I think it's almost impossible. You know, you can try as much as you can, but I think at the end of the day, it's, it's truly impossible. And I get that this isn't insult, but I get that same feeling from you. I love hearing your stories. They're kind of chaotic, but there's a lot of life experience there.
Raymond Hatfield: 00:41:39 And there's a lot of information that I think is enhancing the, your book. I think anybody who reads your book and listens to this is going to get us a much deeper understanding of the words that you were trying to say in your book. And I actually had a question specifically out that right now, which was, you know, as we're talking about looking through the photos of people on the subway, you said, sometimes you walk in there and you just got all this, you know, like you're going in there, I'm going to take photos no matter what happens, but then you also said, I wrote it down. You said you shared the story of w being pushed to be more genuinely interested in your subjects. And when you were quote, new worlds began opening up for me. And of course I did. And that to me got me really interested because this is a world of strangers, you know? So how do you open yourself up? How do you become genuinely interested in somebody who is a complete stranger who maybe you're not talking to? Did you have a goal of taking their photo when, when you would, when you would see these people?
Gerard Exupery: 00:43:00 I think you have to be lonely. And I think that you have to be mindful it's almost like a purposeful, purposeful wellness or what, you know, like the Buddhist thing about you know, it, it really, it is what it is and bye. Just letting things happen. And that's kinda what I mean by allowing yourself to be vulnerable. I mean, it's like, and this is a very small example, but so you're supposed to get off at this subway stop cause you're meeting your girlfriend or whatever. And, but instead you see these people sitting there and they're so interesting, it's your ride? The next 20 stops, you know you, you need to Gerard Exupery: 00:44:00 It comes from a seeing in people, something that you find interesting or attractive and wanting to own a part of it, I think,
Raymond Hatfield: 00:44:12 Can you give me an example of something that you would see that you wanted to own a part of
Gerard Exupery: 00:44:29 Hang on just one. Oh, damn. I have a photograph. It was done digitally of this girl pushing and, and in front of Cooper, union Manhattan downtown in the village, there is a big, giant cube. It's been there for 50 years and you can rotate it by pushing on it. And I have this shot of this girl pushing on it and her friend is on the other side, pushing it too, and they are laughing and they're just having this great time.
Gerard Exupery: 00:45:09 It was very easy for me to imagine what that must feel like to be that old, to be having such a good time with your friend to do something as freaky as pushing this gigantic, gigantic corten steel sculpture. You know, and it, you know, or there's a, there's a shot I have, should I be looking for these or should I just describe it? Or you can just describe it. There's a shot I have of a woman on a Brooklyn street. And she's leaning up against this firebox, very old woman. And it's this whole scene, you know, it's, it's like on a corner and she's just in the center. Not very big, not too small, but just kind of leaning because she's so tired. And I remember at the time wondering what it was like to be so tired of life, just tired. And now that I am much older, I know.
Raymond Hatfield: 00:46:15 Wow, wow. That is, this interview is just been so full of of these big ideas. I think these ideas that you can not fully grasp with photography as I could look at that photo and see something entirely different. Yes. But as you said, you, as the photographer have to put yourself in these photos and kind of decide what it is that you're shooting. Right. It's ultimately you who decides that?
Gerard Exupery: 00:46:45 Oh yeah. It's about me. It's all about me, me, me, me, you know? And, and, you know, and yeah, I'm trying to be funny, but at the same time, it's true because only I, and I've seen that I am showing you a, represent a two dimensional representation of it, but only I saw it and felt it and reacted to it. And only I had the feeling that immediate feeling that hopefully I'm conveying to you.
Raymond Hatfield: 00:47:11 Yeah. Yeah. Do you ever hope that, do you ever hope that somebody sees a photo the same way as you do or does it even matter?
Gerard Exupery: 00:47:20 Yeah. well, it's interesting. I've never equated photography with making money at all. At least what I do. I mean, I usually just gave my prints away, you know, I didn't care doing the book. And I have had people buy some prints from me. Has, I didn't know what the hell we'll charge, you know, it's like here, just have it. So yeah. And so when somebody, you know, some people are very eloquent and say, Oh, I liked the way the lighting is here or whatever. And in my head I'm saying, well, I had absolutely nothing to do with this.
Raymond Hatfield: 00:48:00 Yeah.
Gerard Exupery: 00:48:00 I don't care what the light's doing. You know, I know if it's good or I know if it's going to be an issue later on, but it's about this person is about that situation and, you know so yeah, and, and, and I'm very happy when that happens. I'm very happy when somebody looks at that picture of that woman leaning and said, I can feel her. I can feel what she's feeling. Yeah. And that, for me, even as the ego, I it's very satisfying and yes, I think I was very fortunate. I don't think I'd been fortunate. Like I have this guardian angel. She always takes, make sure she knows. She makes sure I never have a really, really good time, but she also makes sure I don't get maimed. So, so and I've been very fortunate in my life to have had the experiences positive and negative, and I feel so fortunate to be, to see this thing and then have somebody else find it as interesting or as feeling as much as I did that is that's more than I deserve.
Raymond Hatfield: 00:49:14 No, it's a great feeling. It's definitely a good feeling. And all of this kind of comes from, you know, being able to take or being able to translate, I guess, what it is that you see in your head onto a, as you said, a piece of film, piece of paper, a digital chip, you know, whatever it is. Yeah. That obviously comes from experience. So your book, you know, your book spans an entire decade of taking photos. If you had to guess, or maybe, you know, how many photos did you take in the subway during that decade?
Gerard Exupery: 00:49:43 I'll tell ya. I have been stuck inside for almost two years with a severe back issue. I was supposed to have my surgery, but because of the pandemic it's been pushed back and you know, I, so, and I've been going slowly out of my mind if it's not obvious, not, I mean, you know, it's just I can only walk a certain distance. I can only stand for so long. So I spent, spent a lot of my time just going through the pictures I, I bought like [inaudible] cone anx, you know, their archival carbon anx, and I got archival pay for, so I started doing these gorgeous prints and okay. And, but you know, my ex sister-in-law who she is such a wonderful person, she said, why don't you do a book of your pictures? Yeah. I'm going to watch TV.
Gerard Exupery: 00:50:39 And, and so it was a couple of weeks later, I'm thinking, you know, something's going to, I'm losing my mind here. And so I actually did sit down and start enlighten room, start ordering the pictures in a collection of things that might make a good book or story. And then it was only then that I realized I had so many photographs of the subway. It was never my intention to make the subway a series. It was always my intention to, it's always my intention to photograph just about everything, you know, everywhere I go and everything I see. And, and there's something repeatedly has, has me interested. I just continued doing it. And I noticed that I had all these pictures from the subway. So I also had lost for a few years, about 3000 negatives. And so I'd been going through them and saying, Holy crap, look at all those subway pictures.
Gerard Exupery: 00:51:29 And there are lots of pictures of other things, but I thought, Hmm. So I started scanning them in and lo and behold I had enough to do a book. And, and it's interesting because it told me how I felt about the subway, you know? Wow. And the intro to the book, I say it's like the star ship, the transporter on the star ship enterprise only slower. It's this constantly changing play, you know, where the characters go on the stage, get off the stage. The scenery is always changing and there's always a story it's always, for me, a picture is always about the story. It's always the story. And you know, if you, like, I had this girlfriend and we used to just sit there and make up stories about people who were sitting across from us, you know, and sometimes they were very nice and sometimes they weren't whatever, but it was, it was this exercise. And, but in a way, that's what you're doing. When you take a picture of a stranger, you know, you're imbuing them with certain qualities that you perceive.
Raymond Hatfield: 00:52:37 So after I'm sorry, gone. Cause I didn't know whether I answered your question or not. Well, yes and no. The answer was a lot. You took a lot of photos in the subway. My next question was kind of, it's more about having this longterm project. Do you know? Cause I'm always interested in stuff like this. I was always interested in those people who took a photo of themselves every day for like two years or whatever it was. Things are always interesting. Yeah, exactly. Those things are always interesting to me, but it's always easier for me to look back than it is to look forward. Kind of where at, where you're at with all the photos that you have when you had decided that you're going to put together a book of subway images, how did you weed out some, but include others? How did, how did you make that decision for you?
Gerard Exupery: 00:53:23 Well, that's actually two questions. Think you're asking me about, well, I said it wasn't really a project that I had thought of, but it was something that I consistently did. Yes. Is the only thing I've ever consistently done in my entire life. I mean, it is the only thing I have done from the time I was about eight years old till now that I never stopped doing. Yeah. So and
Gerard Exupery: 00:53:49 You know, you know, it's like, you know, when you take a picture, whether it's good or not, you know, it's, you know, and you feel it in your heart or your head and if you don't, maybe that isn't what year, you know, cause you have to, you know, you have to feel it in your heart or your head, whatever word, wherever you believe. And
Gerard Exupery: 00:54:15 So that's how I know. I mean, it's interesting. Like I will, for the longest time before I became much more positive about my homework I would look at it and, Oh, that's nice. That's nice. And then after about the 20th picture, you get kinda foggy. You know, it's really hard to Oh, is this one better than that? Should I go with it? And I, and I realized while doing the book that, Hey, you know, when I got tired, I'm going to go take a nap. I'll come back to this later. Nobody's beating down the door, waiting for me to finish this book. I did want to publish it on the anniversary of my mom's death because she always said, I'll never get anywhere in flour. No, she didn't
Raymond Hatfield: 00:54:58 Sorry. I didn't know how to respond to that.
Gerard Exupery: 00:55:01 No, she was like, no, I mean, Oh it should be. I will. I'll tell you that she was not very positive about me making it a career. Okay. I'll just leave it at that. But you know, she was a very interesting woman and I love her. Oh, she wouldn't even tell you what a crap mom she was as she was, but she was also a wonderful person, you know? And I think, see, when you, when your kids get to be adults and they can say, Oh yeah, my dad was a real, but there's also a good guy too. You know? It's like, by the time your kids are 18, they know exactly who you are.
Raymond Hatfield: 00:55:35 Yes, of course, whatever. I'm sorry. I'm rambling. I need a drink of water. Oh, of course. Of course. No. I just think it's always interesting to think about the whole idea of putting things together in the form of a book. Because as you said, you know, if you, I know I've gotten to the point to where every year I make a, a yearbook, like a family yearbook just taken with like cell phone photos or, you know, photos with the Fugees or whatever that I just kind of compile. And I've had to like cap myself with the number of pages for each month, because if I didn't there would be no rhyme or reason. It would just be every single photo because they're all first time. No, it's because I just have such a hard time deciding what should go in and what's not. And then if I become too critical, each month only has like two photos in it. You know what I mean? So when it comes to putting together this book of yours, surely not every subway photo went in there. So tell me why you chose one and why you didn't choose another.
Gerard Exupery: 00:56:41 Cut for a second. I just want to turn this fan because I'm starting to sweat shirt. There's a boy over here. Who's fanning, man. I just had to smack them. I'm going to take a puff on this. That's my advice.
Gerard Exupery: 00:57:15 To pictures, honest, you know, there are pictures that look great because you can say to your buddy or your friend, just move over here a little bit or do this. And I've done that, you know, I mean, and it makes a nice picture, but there are certain pictures like the woman leaning on, on the firebox, the the three women in, in the subway who are just, you know, that they're having a fight about something that there's something honest about it that I had no control over that I was just privileged to see. And those are the ones that inevitably end up. It's the ones that I choose, you know. And what you said previously about the technological frailties of shooting analog shooting film. I swore, and I've a very good friend of mine when he found out that I sold all my digital gear and you know, and you know, I didn't sell it cause I had to sell it.
Gerard Exupery: 00:58:16 I sold it because, you know you know, the whole story of the Trojan horse went the Greeks, you know, they, they come on. Sure. Well, he burned the ships because you're not going back buddy, until this is over that that's, this is something that and it was I'm sure I'll get back to your original question. Stephanie Pappas, who's the editor at Monroe magazine who saw my stuff and she sent me an email and I thought it was one of my friends pranking me and I said, okay, man, you know, I said, is this a prank? You know, and it wasn't, but you know she that's a magazine that they will publish digital, but rarely that they only want analog. And I thought, Hmm. So when I'm looking at the book, I tried to slug in some of my newer subway photos that were digital and it was like getting stabbed in the eye with an ice pick because the difference is, is so seeable, I mean, other pictures not.
Gerard Exupery: 00:59:24 So I have it in my book, you know, in my personal stuff here pictures, side by side that are film and digital and you know, and who really, I don't care what kind of a camera it is, story, you know, really each picture stands on its own. I think a picture that's relying on the one in front of it or in back of it is not as good as the one that's going to stand on its own. And that's what I try, you know, that's what I strive for. So what's a film it's soft, it's scratched. I swear. I would never, I spent my life in, I mean, I must've spent 15 years in the dark room in the dark and I was, you know, and I made early on. That's how I made money by printing for other people. And I swore never, never, I, all my clothes were fixer stained, whatever.
Gerard Exupery: 01:00:17 And just looking at the book and seeing the way she had explained it to me was that there is something that is more human about film, that the digital is so pure, pure, almost surgically. So, you know, it is just so clean and it's true, you know, it's like I can take pictures at 1600 or 3,200, I saw with the in digital land and they looked great do that in film. And you know, you can't tell somebody's face because the grain is that side. You know, it just slid right there. But the there's something about it that just really started me thinking and I had to ask myself, why did I exchange the digital?
Gerard Exupery: 01:01:11 Well, it wasn't really a conscious decision. It just happened to be the camera that I had at the time. So I decided that I'm going to re-explore that. And when I was processing the first roll of film, I put through this, I'm leaning over the sink and I'm gone. I felt, I felt like I was one of those actors in Williamsburg, Virginia, you know, who's right. You know, it's like, Oh, this is how we, they did it in the old days and stuff. But I felt such a connection that I hadn't felt in so long, that idea of crap, you know, what if I shake it three times instead of just twice, I'm gonna, the contrast is gonna go up and whatever, you know, or, and, and I realized that there is something that is really earthy, grounded about having that interaction with your images. And I still love digital photography. And as soon as I'm as soon as I think I'm ready, I'm going to buy that extra three. Yes. And so it's it's but there is something about film that is more organic and it's, I wouldn't say it's any closer to my heart, but it's, it's easier to look at, I think, yeah.
Raymond Hatfield: 01:02:33 Easier to look at. It's easier to look at. It's easier to look at that goes back to that kind of surgical precision, because oftentimes I know that this has said this is dumb. I was watching a documentary the other day with my son, Charlie. No, I take that back. It wasn't even a documentary. I was telling you earlier about this e-learning that he's doing because he's from school and one of his assignments was that he had to watch a video on, on nature and like how trees grow or something like that. And it was talking about how in nature, there's almost never any 90 degree. There's no like straight lines. Everything is very chaotic and organic, I suppose. And I don't know if this was getting really deep into the philosophy, I suppose, a film, but where even the same role, just one, you know, frame different than the next can be a completely different image and the way that it renders the, you know, the grain or even the, the, the light coming in, that it gets very exciting. It gets very exciting that you were able to capture something like this, this, the scene that was in front of you, whereas with digital it's, as you said, it's surgical. It's almost like, well, if you didn't do it, then, then it was your fault. It was your fault. Whereas with film, you look for those impurities or those imperfections usually get excited for those it's like gambling.
Gerard Exupery: 01:03:54 It is because, you know, you're, you are going on your knowledge of this particular situation that you've made an image that is acceptable to you. And you know, what, how many times did you look at that re that strip of in the dark? And we go, Oh yeah, this is great. And then when you put it in the larger realize, Oh, all of them are out of focus. No. I mean, Hey, and then you realize, you know, that crap, I learned about zone focusing. I should really pay more attention, but it is like gambling and the reward is so great. And you know, when you're able to go quick. Yeah. That's a nice thing too. It is a nice thing too. But it's not as nice as it's not as nice as knowing that, Hey, you know what? I knew my shit enough that I was able to see it. Are you allowed to swear on this? Absolutely. Go ahead. Did I knew my shit well enough that I was able to pull this off? Know it may not be the best exposure in the world, but God, you know what that picture is.
Raymond Hatfield: 01:04:57 Yeah. Yeah. Oh man. I I, I told you that I shoot on Fuji as well at the X 100. And then I got the T I just recently got the V not too long ago. Just mainly because I wanted the tilt screen, take photos of the kids and stuff. But yesterday we went out to go on a little bike ride with the kids. We went to a local park and normally I would bring the VI, right. I would bring the X 100 V because it's that instant feedback with kids. It's so hard to make sure that you get them in focus or, you know, whatever it is. There can just be so many things that they, not that they ruin a photo, but there there's so many more what's the word I'm looking for here? It could just,
Raymond Hatfield: 01:05:42 Oh, what is the word that I'm looking for here? But anyway, you can just, nah, no, it can just be all over the place. Right? When you go to take photos of kids, you never know, you never know. But I decided that I was going to bring the, the Pentax K 1000 up there because it was for that exact reason. It was for that exact reason. Cause I know that if I get one good photo, there's not a better feeling in the world than getting that photo. So drought, I have to thank you so much for sharing everything that you have today. I know that I've kept you much longer.
Gerard Exupery: 01:06:16 Oh no, I can go all afternoon. I can keep going. There's nothing I like more than, than talking about this stuff that I had nobody to talk to about it for so many years,
Raymond Hatfield: 01:06:28 This world of podcast you're going to, you're going to love. And I, I can already think of somebody who I really want to connect you with to, to chat with them. Cause you're just gonna have a great conversation. But again, I really want to be mindful of your time. So before I let you go, I got two more questions for you. One is what advice would you have for anybody who right now is looking to do a longterm project?
Gerard Exupery: 01:06:54 Pick something that you don't like
Raymond Hatfield: 01:06:57 Pick something that you don't like. Why is that?
Gerard Exupery: 01:07:00 Oh I hate tattoos. I mean, I've seen some gorgeous tattoos in Japan, you know, it's a different thing. The idea of using your body as basically a cocktail napkin to scribble on bothers me, especially on women, because I think the female form is just pretty damn gorgeous, you know, as it is the human form, men, women, whatever. And there's a tattoo shop in my town here that I used to walk past twice a day, at least, and one day I'm staring in the window and I'm going, why don't I like this? You know? And I just wandered in. And of course I was, I expected to be sold. Somebody tried to sell me speed methadone and gets hit in the head with a bicycle, a motorcycle trench, and you know what, they were the nicest people in the world. And the owner, I got into a conversation with this guy named ox.
Gerard Exupery: 01:07:57 And I said, you know, I'm not a big fan. I said, but can I come back and spend a couple of hours every week? And sure. And it took a while for the other two twists to accept me being there. Cause they were nasty. But after about nine months of doing this I understood a lot better. And I learned how to tell a story, a cohesive story about this thing that I knew nothing about. So it's great. If you can, if you can document something that you know, nothing about and learn in the process, that's got to influence how you photograph it, you know, because that wonder that that, that newness, you know, it's up here and it's hopefully it'll come out there.
Raymond Hatfield: 01:08:48 Yeah. I know. I never would have. I never would've thought I never would have thought of that. That is a that was a great tip. And honestly, I don't know, I don't know a better way to, into this interview than than with that right there. So again, dry, I got to say thank you again so much for coming on and sharing everything that you did before I let you go. Can you let the listeners know where they can find you online and find your book as well?
Gerard Exupery: 01:09:13
Gerard Exupery one word G E R a R D E X U P E R y.com is my website. Link to the book is on the website. You can also go to Etsy. And the weirdest thing is, is that my, I had a friend, he told me that they Googled Girard Exupery and like three months ago, if I did that, there was nothing about me. And now all of a sudden they're all a lot of my pictures in the book and stuff. So just go on, just Google it.
Raymond Hatfield: 01:09:49 Wonderful. And of course, I'm going to have links to your website, as well as the book in the show notes of this episode. I appreciate that before I let you go, I gotta just let you know that looking at your book, you know, you sent it over looking at your book and the photos in it. It really does feel like a time machine and in a sense that, that you can't get on your own today. It's like you can't go out and you can't photograph your own time machine looking forward, but you can always look back and it feels like that time machine. And it's from the small details from the clothes, the hair, of course, the hairstyles, the lack of any cell phones like we were talking about earlier. And when I look at the people in your photographs, I just wonder about the conversations that they were having. And that draws me in so much. And you know, you can't help, but wonder, you know, what is it that these people are talking about, but ultimately I think where are these people today, you know, and you make it,
Gerard Exupery: 01:10:45 He must think that I feel that way too. I am always going, Hey, he's dead, she's dead, they're dead. Or I wonder how her life went and I wonder, you know, yes, absolutely. I agree with you.
Raymond Hatfield: 01:10:55 Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's that wonder that, that your book for me draws me in and gets me just thinking outside of my own world, which we're all in right now, stuck in our homes. You know, it gets me out of my world that I truly appreciate. And it's really fun and interesting to look at. So again, I just have to publicly say thank you for sharing everything that you did. Thank you for taking those photographs and thank you for coming on the podcast today.
Gerard Exupery: 01:11:20 Thank you so much. It's been a lot of fun.