Wendy Yalom is a San Francisco based high-end personal branding photographer who discovered her passion of personal branding photography after shooting weddings for 10 years. Today we chat about why she chose to leave her successful wedding photography business to pursue an unproven path in photography.

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In This Episode You'll Learn:

• Why Wendy went to fine art school for photography

• If Wendy recommends going to school for photography

• Why Wendy left weddings after 10 years to pursue personal branding photography

• The difference between personal branding photography and a regular portrait session

• What Wendy needs to capture at every personal branding shoot to consider it a success

Premium Members Also Learn:

• Why Wendy believes in niching down and is not worried about turning away clients

• The 4 Marketing Misconceptions every new photographer makes

• How to market without selling

Resources:

• High-end personal branding photographer Wendy Yalom’s website

Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

Full Episode Transcription:

Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically by Temi.com and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.

Raymond Hatfield: 00:00 Wendy, you actually went to school for fine art photography. So I love the, the, the, the beginnings of photography themselves. So before making that decision, which, you know, making the decision to go to school specifically for something that's a big decision in and of itself, but what was the relationship that you already had with photography to, to make that decision, to pursue it even further?

Wendy Yalom: 00:23 Oh, I love this origin story. This is so fun. So my grandfather, we're going to go way back to like 1920 pre 1920, actually when my grandfather who in high school built a dark room in his house. So he could take photos and print photos, like that's how he was such an such an innovator, right. And in the field of photography. And so my mom's whole childhood was captured, which is rare because my mum was born in the thirties and every year my grandpa would like set up these kinds of like, you know, Vogue style, family, photo shoots. He was a, he was a chemical engineer. So this is super creative in so many ways. And so I had all of these photos as a young child that I got to see. And so by the time my mom's generation started having their kids, photography was such a huge part of our family's conversation dialogue. My mom went to art school. She, she was a painter, but she took photos. And so when I was pretty young, I got like an an eight, 10 camera. One of those little, like,

Raymond Hatfield: 01:30 Of course, yeah. The tape.

Wendy Yalom: 01:32 Yeah. And the negatives were like happenings fight. So diabetes, which is perfect for like an eight year old, you know? And, and then when I got into high school, my mom gave me her Nikon. Her it was a Nikon FG, and I can't remember what the lens was. It was probably like a 50 or something and a fixed 50. And I just really loved photography. Like I was the friend and this is, you know, film days. So it was, there weren't as many people in the photography as there are now, it wasn't as it wasn't as accessible. Cause you needed to have be able to buy film and then process the film and you needed to invest pretty well in a camera to have a nice one. And, and so when I was 20 years old I worked at the summer camp and you, somebody, and I just took photos.

Wendy Yalom: 02:20 I like was the friend photographer. I captured everything. I was so into it. And two of my friends were getting married that following year and asked me to be their photographer. And I thought that would be really fun. I didn't have any idea that it was important. So it was really easy to say yes to, because I hadn't even been to good wedding as an adult. And it really lit me up about the idea that I could have a career. I could make money with a camera doing work that was really fun and meaningful for me. So that is what inspired me to go back to school and get a degree in photography. I was 20. I had like, I've been in college for a couple of years. I was like arts, psychology, whatever, early childhood education, environmental studies, you know, I tested all the fields and nothing clicks. I, I was taking a year off and I had that experience and it was just so obvious to me that like, that was what I wanted to study. And so I went back to school and it was again, film days. So, you know, I got to learn how to work in a dark room. And where disk man

Raymond Hatfield: 03:29 Was that experience specifically that you're referencing right there, that, that pushed you to go to art school, the shooting of those weddings. Exactly. Yeah. First of all, those was that in Yosemite. Was that wedding?

Wendy Yalom: 03:42 No, that wedding was not used as many, but actually I think the second wedding I ever shot, wasn't you? Somebody that wedding was in San Francisco at this super elegant location. And I went out and bought a flash of that day. I had never used a flash before I went up by a flash. I stopped at Safeway and bought film and the photos were not good at all. Like, I don't know, sorry, but fortunately I wasn't self conscious about it. You know, it actually inspired me to go to, to go on,

Raymond Hatfield: 04:16 Oh my gosh, that is such a great story. That is such a great story. You know. D do you, have you, do you still have those photos of of that, of that wedding in Yosemite? Because like now that's such a, that's such a thing, you know, you could be like the first, you know, put, put your blog posts out there in the world and just stake your claim. There. That'd be awesome. I really want to know about the transition that you had going from that little, I don't even know what kind of camera they're called. I think it's like 110

Wendy Yalom: 04:43 Oh 110, 110. That's what it said. Yes. Okay.

Raymond Hatfield: 04:45 Okay. I want to know about that transition going from cause essentially those cameras are just, they're just automatic. It's just a press of a button and then you get your photos. And then switching to the Nikon 35 millimeter format. Cause this is more of a professional format where you're in control of, you know, your arbitrary, your ISO and shutter speed. What was that learning curve like for you there in the beginning? Was that

Wendy Yalom: 05:12 I'm so glad you're asking. I mean, this was in high school and I can't remember. I mean, I'm imagining, I'm imagining that I don't even remember, honestly. I mean, I must have learned something about, because I think this was before there was any kind of program mode on these cameras. Right? Like once I became, once I started shooting professionally, you had the camera that you could just set to like autopilot. I don't remember if that FG had that. So I can't quite remember that transition, but I think the bigger, like, yeah, I can't quite remember that transition

Raymond Hatfield: 05:55 About any sort of like challenges you face. Do you remember frustrated with the camera at all?

Wendy Yalom: 06:01 Well, I don't remember being frustrated with the camera then, but I do remember the transition from digital film to digital and that frustration. Right. And like that, Oh God, it was so stressful because you know, it was 2005. So digital technology was not that great, but it had the benefit of you not having to bring, you know, 40 rolls of film and have it. Literally, I would have an assistant with me at every wedding who I just pass my cameras to, to change the film. I mean, that's what you had to do. Right. You've got 36 frames. Imagine, you know, and I had to have two camera bodies that I was constantly using one black and white one color. And, and so you would think the transition to digital would be just so pleasurable, but the technology was not that great. So there was a couple of things that happen.

Wendy Yalom: 06:47 One is it would take a long time to record images sometimes. So you would be sometimes waiting like 10 seconds for the file to low before you could load another file. And then when you got, Oh man, and then like it also, the technology to download cards was way more stressful because they would take forever. And sometimes they'd be big glitch. You'd lose images. I remember one of the first weddings I shot digitally, just feeling so frustrated. And so like taking the card out and try to put it back in, not realizing that like by pulling the card out, you basically are erasing it. And then, you know, all of us, I think, or digital photographers have had the experience at least once and having to take a card into a data. And now you just have that app right on your, on your computer.

Wendy Yalom: 07:31 That's like a data, what's it called? Recovering whatever. Yeah. Yes. But back then it was like, there weren't that many, so you had to mail it in and like, Oh God, it was so, so stressful. Oh my God. And of course eventually the benefit and also the quality was still not nearly as sharp as film film and people were so used to seeing film that when they saw digital images, they looked cheap. Like they look different than what we registered as photographs. And so it was hard to reconcile, I think for people that like that transition. But now we're also used to seeing digital images that actually seem film images. They look a little bit off and grainy, you know, it's interesting. Yes.

Raymond Hatfield: 08:19 Yeah. It's so weird. How the tables turn like that and such, I mean, relatively a short, a short period of time, especially throughout, like, when you think about the history of of photography of photography. One thing that I'm always curious about though is now I went to, I went to film school because I wanted to to do cinematography. You obviously went to a fine arts school with a focus in photography. There's a lot of people, especially now with, in this age of digital who essentially learn everything that they can on YouTube and it can be pretty successful, you know, on their own, in terms the quality of images that they're able to produce. I'm curious about your views on going to school for photography, kind of in today's in today's world. What would you say to somebody if they asked you if you would recommend going to a school for photography?

Wendy Yalom: 09:12 Got it. Such a great question. I'm so happy you asked this question because I think a lot has changed. Since then the first thing that's changed is it's not like we have come to recognize that like going to college does not necessarily equal. You know, it's not like a step you have to take in order to have a successful career. And that I think has been, become obvious in the last 20 years. So I'm 46 now. So when I was started, college was like 1992. It was still, you know, our parent, my parents' generation was like, you have to get an education. It was just a suit. I think if somebody is thinking about it, the benefits of going to school are being a part of a community, having a dialogue with a group of people about your work, having mentors and teachers who've been there, who can who can critique the work you do there it's, it's really about having community and comradery.

Wendy Yalom: 10:07 There was a thing that I didn't learn in and in school. And it may be because it was fine art, but I imagine even for fine art, it would have been valuable, which is there's the whole business of photography that you miss. So if you want the experience of being a part of it, you want the college experience go for it. It's like, why not? That said, it's completely unnecessary if you want to have a successful career. And if you do what I recommend is focusing as much energy on the business of running a photography business, as you do on the art of which I think is what gets lost. Cause I left school and I mentor photographers now. And a lot of them come to me and they, their images are beautiful. Like you, like, they've got the right quality of light. And like the framing is beautiful is like, you can just tell that they're masterful at this scale, but they have no idea how to market or sell their businesses. And so I think that that would be, if I was doing it over, I would probably focus. I would definitely want to find some kind of community experience cause that's just pleasurable. But I think I would be way more disciplined about it being about both the art and the business of geography. That's what I think. What do you think I haven't done

Raymond Hatfield: 11:23 Film school. It's pretty similar. You know, you don't really have to worry too much about the business side of things cause you're kind of hired to, to be a worker on set essentially. But a film is definitely an industry in which you can just show up one day and learn everything that you can on set and be very proficient at it. So it's kind of different. It's very interesting though, you know, talking about the business side of photography because there is so much to it and here within photography, I feel like there's as many different styles of business, there are genres of photography. So it can be hard to really get very specific information on something you know, that you're really looking to get into. But you actually, you know, as you said, you've been doing this for a long time and I want to mention here, because this is a huge accomplishment that you were voted best wedding photographer in San Francisco in 2011

Wendy Yalom: 12:16 By this local newspaper. So yeah, that was awesome.

Raymond Hatfield: 12:22 That's huge because San Francisco is one of like the biggest wedding markets in the world. So again, incredible accomplishment. But today we're talking about branding photography. That's where this is all coming from. So I want to know after receiving some sort of an award like that, the, the accomplishment, the notoriety, what made you think, you know what I'm going to give all this up and I'm going to do something entirely different.

Wendy Yalom: 12:45 I love that you're saying this because I think this is such a, I get, I get, I get photographers who I mentor, who come to me, who are like, I want to transition out of wedding photography and that's why I've chosen for square. I'm starving. And for me it actually, wasn't a decision to leave wedding photography. What happened for me was I I w I love wedding photography. I had, I had to learn the business of photography and I had to fall in love with the business of photography. I always loved the art, but it was, it wasn't until, maybe about, I don't know, like 10, eight or 10 years into my career, into my career as a wedding photographer that I realized I actually needed to build a business. It wasn't like I wasn't just going to be sustained by great connections with people and, you know, and taking great photos.

Wendy Yalom: 13:32 Like the world was changing. Like the internet, you are going to the internet to find photographers like has always looked at all the people who were discovered the internet. It was like the times are changing. So I had to build the business and I really fell in love with the business. And I loved my work as wedding photographer. I loved working with couples and understanding like how to talk about wedding photography, as more than just like, I'm going to take pictures of your wedding and how to package that and market it. It was really fun for me and in and I started as a wedding photographer when I was in my early twenties. When I, a lot of my friends were getting married. People in my community were getting married. I was gay. Marriage was like, it's sort of what people were doing.

Wendy Yalom: 14:13 So it was a really easy to be a part of that community. Then in about 2012 I, I had this community of friends who were coaches and spiritual entrepreneurs, and people were starting to use the internet to market their, their services. And they were authoring virtual services. And so I started to have relationships with people who had a need for a different kind of photography. And I had girlfriends come to me and ask for portraits that were more like more of, more authentic, the word they use. Like they wanted something other than the realist for photo, which is what traditionally had been a head before that, you know they wanted people to see these photos and feel like they were having like a great a moment with the person in them versus like, she looked like, you know, like she looks tense and nervous, but that's okay.

Wendy Yalom: 15:09 She'll buy my house, help me buy my house, you know, whatever. So I started serving that community and discovering more and more of a need for it. And at that time I was I had a pretty full schedule of wedding photography, but as you know, and all of us know, it's like weddings, you know, even a full schedules, like 30 days a year. Right. Cause it's like they have it on the weekends. You typically there's some times the year you don't work. So like a 30, like I think at the end, it was probably 1330, 35 a year, which is like a good solid business. And, and I had time to do this other work. And so I started incorporating that in during the weeks. And then and then within a couple of years I started getting to travel to do that work and it became this, this, I just noticed myself feeling more excited when I would get an inquiry about brand photography.

Wendy Yalom: 16:03 Then when I get an inquiry about wedding photography. And so eventually the wedding inquiries would come and I'd be like, well, what's the location? Oh, well, what's their budget. You know, it was less about like, Oh my God, how cool and exciting that this couple wants to hire me. And so the transition just happened naturally when I was getting enough of the other work and that wedding photography just, it was less of a pole. So yeah, so now I'm 100% brand photography and the mentorship and that's that's then for the last, since probably since 2015, I transitioned totally out of doing weddings.

Raymond Hatfield: 16:37 So that's a relatively fast transition from 2012 to 2015. I mean, it's hard for many photographers going for working like a nine to five to go full time in that amount of time. So to be able to completely change who you are and what it is that you do, and then do it successfully to be able to obviously support yourself and sustain your business. That's a, that that's a huge leap. That's a huge leap. So with, when it comes to branding photography, though, you know, you said that it's different than just like a regular portrait session. You don't just want, you know, the, the, the, just the smile and looking straight at the camera, you really want to feel some emotion, but when you're there and you're shooting, how do, how do you interact with, with, with your subject differently from a portrait session, just a traditional purchase session, as you would hear in a personal branding session?

Wendy Yalom: 17:29 It's such a good question. My first thought was like inappropriately. Cause I feel like I swear a lot, but that was, that's not the, that's not the, the main way I, and you know, it's, it's, it's probably similar in my way when I w I, I rarely did more of the traditional portraits, but I certainly was occasionally, especially like I can remember couple of instances where one of the one, either the bride or the groom then asked me to come into their business after that I had worked with, and that they needed a headshots. And like, so I occasionally did that more classic headshot kind of like this Davo, who's the one who introduced us, does he does like more of that kind of classic corporate headshot. Right. I interacted pretty similarly. Like I wanted to put the person at ease. I wanted them to feel relaxed.

Wendy Yalom: 18:13 I wanted them to feel like I wanted to get them out of the, the, the, the fear thoughts that a lot of us have when we're being photographed or the distraction, or the insecurity thoughts, and just get them to be relaxed and happy. And so in probably some ways it was similar. But the difference is that when we're talking about a more classic, like corporate headshot, what we just w w I mean, we want to see there's, I guess, in some there's similarity, like when I'm thinking about personal brand photography, really we're getting at, like, what is it we want the viewer to feel about this person? What do, what do we want to imagine? Or the qualities that this person embodies, you know, is it conflict? Like, when I think about a classic corporate portrait would be more like confidence, like ability, capability, like strength, you know, like those are more of the, like, I got this trustability, right.

Wendy Yalom: 19:07 What, what I want, what a lot of my clients are selling is an experience versus, and practical things. So, like, I work with a lot of spiritual entrepreneurs who are, you know, eight time over New York times, bestselling authors, and they write books for how to like how to be in the present moment. Right. And that's not like a physical thing we can show them doing. And so we want to, I want them in those photos to embody the energy that they're essentially selling their clients. So we want to create photos where they look present, they look connected, we can feel it. You know, all of us, I think, have seen those photos and have had photos probably of ourselves, where we look at it and we can see where it's like smiling, but we are genuinely happy, you know, it's like that. And so we want the, we want, and people are really smart.

Wendy Yalom: 20:02 Like they know that. And so I want my clients photos for when the viewer sees them, they get that in that moment that clients actually having the experience that they're exhibiting on their face, whether it's joy or like this client, I just mentioned like presence and peace or success with, you know, whatever that is confidence. So that's health. I work with a health coach is like a vitality and health. So I think that getting back to your question, which is how do I interact? I think that there's a few things. One is I really want to create like a visual experience in addition to actually the energy, they feel meaning like where we are, you know, what they're physically doing in the photos, all those things that, that match what it is that experiences. And then I want them to actually feel it.

Wendy Yalom: 20:51 So all talk to them in a way about the work they offer are all train inspire in them. You know, like just to use that coach that I just met, or the author, who's a spiritual, who's a spiritual teacher. It's like, I'll have her close her eyes and actually drop in and meditate for a few minutes. So that way, when the moment comes where we're taking the photos, like she's actually feeling that, that experience. So that's really, it's like, how do you match the moment that we're taking the foment photo to the moment we, to the experience we want the clients to imagine working with that person creates.

Raymond Hatfield: 21:28 Yeah. So how do you visit this is really interesting. This is really interesting. Now before a wedding, I don't typically do a lot of research on my couples. I don't I don't want to say that I don't, you know feel for their hopes and dreams or whatever. I try to learn as much as I can about them to try to kind of tailor their, their wedding. But typically that happens like during the engagement session, but for something so personal, for something where your clients are going to be using these photos to promote themselves and put essentially the best selves out into the world to be that first to be that first interaction, I suppose, that a stranger may have with them. How do you ensure that you choose the right feeling or vibe that these, that these photos need to need to have?

Wendy Yalom: 22:19 I love that you talked about this and it, I mean, the first thing is it's important for me that there's, there's a real sense of the word that's coming to my, as intimacy with the client right off the bat, that they feel really confident in opening up to me about what they actually want. So that's that we start there, even on the sales call, like that's, I want to get to that level of, of just of connection with them so that they feel safe sharing with me something that they might be feeling nervous about or something they really want to feel embarrassed about, or, you know, or feel like they shouldn't have whatever it is. And then we have an hour long planning call and that hour long planning call, I lead them through a series of questions that gets in at their vision and helps me understand what it is that they're wanting their clients to experience, you know, what it is that they're wanting them to to pay them for essentially.

Wendy Yalom: 23:14 And so we have an hour long call that really gets in at that piece. And during that call, I think of each, like, I think of a day of a photo shoot day is having a series of stories that we're going to tell with the camera. And each story essentially is like a different location, a different setup, a different outfit. It's like a different moment in this, this client art, my client's life, right. About in the, in their work life. And so on that call, we want to come up with a series of different stories that we get to tell. So, you know, it is like if we're working with a health coach, is it like, are we in a kitchen? And then are we like, am I out somewhere beautiful where they're running? You know, if I'm working with, or is it like a McDonald's cause they want to tell about the all, you know, like, who knows, like, you know, we just kind of get it, like, what are the, what are the different moments that we would want a client, a potential client of theirs to step into the real life with them in.

Wendy Yalom: 24:09 And, and so that's really fun. And then it's cool for me, because as much as I am a creative, I also love planning. Like I am such a like organizer and planners. And then from that call, I go through and get to pick the different locations we're going to have, where we're going to shoot the kind of like what they're going to be doing in each of those locations. Like, I actually collaborate with them on what they're wearing. So I get, I see what they're wearing and make recommendations. And so I basically take their, their, their dream or their vision and make it into a reality. Yeah. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 24:46 That's a lot that you have to do in order to make sure that obviously the photos that they want, that they're going to get and get it without a hitch. That's incredible. That's incredible. I mean, that right there, I think speaks alone to the value of what personal brand photography is versus, you know, a portrait session. Because if somebody tells me that they're a real estate agent, I know what that photo is going to look like. If somebody tells me that they are a a spiritual health coach or something, you know there's a lot more, there's a lot more room in there I think to play with. And I don't, I don't know why, but it's great that that you're able to kind of dig in and really make these, these sessions personal to who they are and not just what they are, if that makes sense. I really like that

Wendy Yalom: 25:32 100% and even like a spiritual health coach, it's like, I mean, there is, there are as many definitions for that is there are spiritual health coach, you know, it's like one could advocate like meditation and, you know, sitting in silence and doing yoga and, you know, eating vegan and living in a cave, you know, and one could be like, go, you know, all in like the Ritz and you should dance a hundred hours a week and you know, like indulge in all of your desires. And so it's like, it's so cool because you do have to investigate, like, what does the word elegant mean to you? You know, what does the word confident look like in your imagination? It's, it's we have so many words that we use that we think are our we just assume your interpretation and my interpretation of elegant would be the same or spiritual would be the same and sad and beautiful, even like, you know, it's so personal. So it's really cool to investigate and get into what it is that how, how they use those, how they interpret those words.

Raymond Hatfield: 26:38 Of course, I mean, there's 7.7 billion people on. So we all, we all kind of experience all these things differently. That's that's awesome. That's awesome. My next question here is that you kind of touched on this earlier, which is that, you know, you had a lot of friends who were kind of in this space, a lot of women, friends who were in this space of, of helping and they were authors and they were coaches. So now today, if somebody were to go to your website, they would see that you that's pretty much exclusively what you shoot. You've niched down a ton. Not only is personal branding, photography, not for everybody, but you've decided to exclude a lot more people who could potentially use personal brand photography and focusing only in, on, you know, boss, ladies, essentially, right? The powerful women who are, who are coaches, entrepreneurs, speakers, where did this? Well, I guess I know where this idea came from. It was, it was from your your close personal connections. But when you decided to go all in on this idea where you worried that maybe you were being too specific and that you were going to alienate a lot of people,

Wendy Yalom: 27:47 I love that you're asking this because here's what I think is, so I honestly, every, you are listening to the free version of the beginner photography podcast, where each week you learn how world-class photographers see and capture the world around them. If you want to hear the extended interview with their best business tips, to learn how to make money with your camera, then become a premium member today by heading over to beginner, photography, podcast.com and click the premium membership button to join now.

Raymond Hatfield: 28:17 Well, I think he did it. You did it. I, I, I've never heard anybody really explain the difference between marketing and selling, I guess so effectively. And I mean, you really just made a lot of photographers, take a deep breath and think to themselves, Oh, I think I got this. I think that I can do this right here. Cause suddenly it's not, it's not as hard. So thank you so much for, for for sharing that. That's a great tip. That's a great,

Wendy Yalom: 28:42 Hopefully, and just a quick thing for your photographers, which is like, it's also awkward before it's elegant. So like let your, I know it's like, it could be a relief, but it also could be like, well, what do I share about if I'm not sharing about my services? So just play with what you're curious to share about. I'm a huge fan of Simon Sinek. Start with why that, yeah. Are you familiar with it? It's such a cool place to go if you're starting out, because it gives, like, he gives a framework for talking about what you do. That's not just like I have a camera and I could come take photos of you. And so watching that is cool. Cause then you can start playing with talking about why you do this, like why you're in photography. And I think then, you know, know that like those photographers who are listening, who maybe have like, or are also now paralyzed with fear because they don't know, what's talking about like, just play with it, like experiment.

Raymond Hatfield: 29:39 That's perfect. That's perfect. And I know that there's going to be lot of experimenting because again, I mean, everybody's looking for, if we know that we have to market forever, essentially, why not try to make it? Not, not only easy, but but fun, I suppose. Right. Make it a little easier on us. So that's great. That's great. When it comes back to the personal branding sessions though, I'm always curious about this. I love, I love, I love this question because as I said earlier, there's so many people on earth and everybody's answer is different for you. What is your goal every time for each personal branding session? Like what do you have to capture? No. Like, no matter how it goes, I mean, it could be a rockstar moment or it could be a total, you know, a failure of a shoot, but what's the one thing that, you know, that you have to capture in order to deliver what your client needs.

Wendy Yalom: 30:27 Yeah. God, what a great question. I need to, first of all, like I, one of the things I love about this work is that it forces me to be present. Like you can't dial in one of these days because if you do, you're not actually feeling what the client's feeling. So, you know, it's, it's starting with that conversation I have with them where I really understand what it is. They're trying to communicate and understanding their needs at that planning call. And then on the day of it's, it's trusting my creative instincts over the voice in my head. That's telling me like what I should do. Wow. Okay.

Raymond Hatfield: 31:13 Okay. I'm going to write that down. That was good. Testing. My creative instincts, trusting my creative instincts. I think that's it. I think that's essentially what all photographers are looking for. I had, I had a discussion with somebody the other day who who was saying like they just booked their first paid shoot and they were so excited. And they were like they were talking about how they're going to go to Pinterest to find all these you know poses and ideas for the shoot. And I, I asked, I said, well, why did, why did they reach out to you in the first place? And he said, Oh, well, they liked my work. And I thought to myself, so what are you doing? Going to look for other people's work to sh like to try to replicate if they already like what it is that you do keep going with that a hundred percent, a hundred percent.

Wendy Yalom: 31:59 Got it. I love that. We're talking about this because I actually, another thing I see photographers do, which is they want to defer to the client for permission. Like they want to defer to the client's need, but the clients, because they, I noticed this, it's like, they're, it's like, they'll come. They're like continuously trying to prove to the client that they, that they're prove their word. They're continuously trying to prove their worth to the client. The minute the client books, you and pays you, the client has said you are worth it. Like, just know that like they are basically saying, like, I am, I'm giving, I'm investing in you to handle this and I'm trusting to be the lead. And so it's having that. And especially when you work with some of the clients who I work with who are running like multiple seven figure businesses, like they are used to being like the one in charge, you know, that it is such a relief to them to have someone come in, who's going to do the job for them because they're not brand photographers. And they don't have, they don't have the creative instinct. I have, they don't have the understanding of light. You know, they don't know why we would choose that random back alley over like, you know, the Marina or whatever. Like, Hey, you know, it's like, and so ha so really it's like that trusting the creative impulse.

Raymond Hatfield: 33:19 Yeah. That's it. That's it right there. That's what the title of this this interview is going to be called now trusting the creative impulse. That's perfect. I know that we don't have much more time. So I want to ask you a windy because you've been very gracious with your time and I really do appreciate you sharing. You've really been an open book today, which has been, which has been wonderful, but in this time there's no way that we can cover all of what goes into personal branding, photography and you know, photography in general. So is there anything that maybe I didn't ask you today that you just want to make sure that those listening know about personal branding photography?

Wendy Yalom: 33:56 Yeah. Okay. Well, there's two things. One is we didn't check in about this before, but I'm assuming it's okay. I do have a faith free Facebook group that people are, I would love to have people join. So in there I offer videos and I talk about video. I share a lot of wisdom and insights of people want to join that is this okay that I'm sharing this. So we link to that. That's a great place. And I speak specifically to the art and business and personal brand photography in there and answer all kinds of questions. So that's, that's a great place to get more. I think the, the what I would leave your client, what I would want to leave your folks with is just like a couple of things. One is this field of personal brand photography is one is like the field that is growing and continues to grow.

Wendy Yalom: 34:48 It is, it is like, it is the personal brand photographers who were behind every great Instagram ad campaign, you know, or not. Even when I say I campaign, what I really mean is influencer, you know, page like it, like we are turning more and more. And especially with COVID, it's like more and more is becoming virtual. And so the work that we get to do is so valuable because in today's world, we've come to this place where it's rare for us to be in real life with the people who we're working with. And so it's photographers. We get to be that bridge between these people who are serving the world and all of their clients. It's a very cool place to be in. And there's a lot of opportunity for both professionally and just on a personal level to create those visions. I think it's when I think about the difference between this and any of the other fields, there is so much opportunity for creativity doing brand photography, because you really get to take this like you, and I've talked so much about this call, this the sort of am this amorphous idea of what it means to be confident or look powerful or all these things, and like bring it into real life.

Wendy Yalom: 36:05 It's like, it's like a little bit of a magicians thing. And so I would just encourage anybody who's considering it to, to go for it, to test it, to try it, you know to join the group and learn more if you want to. And then the other thing, just for all of the photographers who are not necessarily personal branding, it's like, I can't emphasize enough that just the importance of finding joy and running a business, like not only learning, but discovering that it can be joyful. Like if, if you can bring the same kind of creativity enjoy and, and, and just pride to the business, you're running that you bring to the photography you create, like you got it, you got it, you got it

Raymond Hatfield: 36:52 Before I let you go. And that is for those who are looking to get started today, right? If they're thinking I'm all in on this, who should they reach out to first to, to, to dip your toes in the water and, and maybe give them their own personal branding session.

Wendy Yalom: 37:08 Yes. Great question. They should look at the people in their community and see people who they think could use this and just reach out and, and just offer this like, say like, here's what I'm doing. Here's why I think you'd be a great fit. I am a huge fan. If you're dipping your toes into it, to reach out to two or three different people who you just think it was or let go of it, trying to be, you know, don't have it be like, Oh, if I, if I reach out to this one, she's pretty influential. And maybe she'll recommend me to friends. Like, no, just people who you think this would serve and the kind of people who you want to spend your time with. Now, like at this point in my career, like I said, I work, I work about a hundred days a year.

Wendy Yalom: 37:46 And so that means a hundred days of the year I'm spending all day with, with people, with my clients. And so it's like find people who that's actually a joy, you know, it's like I would choose to spend the day with these people if they were paying me or not, they are amazing human beings. And so it's like find people that you're actually drawn to spending time with. That's my, my recommendation is, is start there and have it just be, give yourself full permission to trust your creative instincts, both in what you're photographing, but also in how you're creating the shoot and the day.