Misha Wynn is a luxury wedding photographer from Dallas Texas who today talks about how to be the best second shooter you can be!
Become A Premium Member to access to more in-depth questions that help move you forward!
In This Episode You'll Learn:
What is a second shooter in photography
Why become a second shooter
The roll a second shooter plays with the main photographer
The biggest challenges finding a second shooter
Do second photographers edit their own photos
The difference between a good second shooter and a great second shooter
A misconception people have about being a second photographer
Premium Members Also Learn:
What do you pay a second shooter
How to get your first opportunity second shooting
How to know when you can financially afford a second shooter
How to protect yourself legally when hiring a second shooter
Resources:
Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!
Full Episode Transcription:
Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically by Temi.com and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.
Raymond: 00:00 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast. Today we're talking all about being a great second shooter. So let's get into it.
Intro: 00:09 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfield, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raymond interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now with you as always, husband, father, home brewer, LA Dodger fan and Indianapolis wedding photographer, Raymond Hatfield.
Raymond: 00:37 Welcome back to this week's episode of the beginner photography podcast. As always, I am Raymond Hadfield and I am super excited to be here today and I really want to share a story with you before we get on into this interview. So this past weekend I shot a wedding and it was a wedding at a venue that I had a that I'd been to before. It's a, it's a very nice location, but it had been probably probably three years, no two years since I last shot a wedding at a, at this venue. And since that, it's like an old, a cathedral. Okay. Old wooden, you know, monolith. Like this place is giant. But since the last time that I was there, they converted the lobby into a coffee shop and they converted the like I guess the East wing into a gym. So last time I was there, the only people who were in this entire place was the wedding party and the the caterers and whatnot.
Raymond: 01:47 But this time, tons and tons and tons of people just everywhere. And that made it kind of you know not frustrating, but just, you know, you just had to deal with that extra element. And well let me, let me, let me start before that. So the wedding that I shot this weekend actually strangely, really fed my ego as a photographer, but it was also incredibly humbling. So everybody at this wedding was they were happy and they were just truly happy. You know, like, one of the reasons why I love shooting weddings is because it's generally like the happiest day of your life, you know, barring children you know graduating with like a major degree, like a huge accomplishment. It's one of the most important days of your life. Did. You're going to remember. And generally people are very, very happy. But you know, sometimes there's family drama.
Raymond: 02:49 Sometimes there's, you know, this, that the other thing, poor planning, you know, whatever it is, sometimes there's an air of a tenseness at. But this wedding had none of that. Everybody was so happy and everybody was just truly enjoying themselves and being there. And what was weird was it, they went out of their way to appreciate me. Like they're not, they're not there for me. Like I'm not putting on a concert or anything. They're there for their friend or their family who, who's getting married. And yet everybody kept giving me compliments, which I thought was so strange, so strange. It was so foreign to me. The best man told me after we had taken all of the Brown party photos, he said, I can tell that your photos are going to be great because you just make everybody feel so comfortable. I know that I'm not gonna look awkward and stiff in your photos.
Raymond: 03:47 And I thought like, wow, that's, you know, that's a, that's a pretty big, you know compliment. Especially, cause he had not seen a single photo. And then even later, the bride told me after I did show her one of her photos just from the back of the camera, right, the, the small three inch screen, she said, this was so weird. She said, Raymond, I love this so much. And then she said, you were made to do this for others. Thank you. And I was really like taken back. Like I'm not, I understand that this feels like I'm just like tooting my own horn here. And this isn't how I wanted this to come off because that's feels very awkward for me. And that's not what I'm trying to get at. That's not, that's not the point of this. But I was taken back at this because, and this is the story that I want to share with you, is because up until that point, I had been having a lot of internal doubt at this wedding a lot.
Raymond: 04:47 Like I said, I thought, Oh, this cake, I've been to this venue before, it's great. We're like, we're gonna make some great things happen. I had showed up now there's a coffee shop, there's a gym going on. The two places that I really wanted to take photos were off limits for a different event, which at the time I thought were for the, it's not for the wedding. Like we were not allowed to go to these very to extremely photogenic locations because of a different event going on. So suddenly there was a, well, what are we going to do about this? Before I had shown up the bridesmaids phone had died. So when I got there, I couldn't find the room that they were in. And you can't just go knocking on all these doors. Cause now there's tons of people. The lighting was mixed and it was splotchy.
Raymond: 05:36 And when I say it was mixed, it was like so mixed. Like there was like an orange looking light that I had never encountered before in my life. Like yellow? Yes. Green. Yes. Blue. Yes. This color is hit. It's hideous. Right? It's very splotchy. The ceilings are beautiful. They're like 15, 16 feet high, but a, because it's a really old, old, old building. There's like smoke detectors and sprinkler six systems like six feet off the ground and they're bright red and they're everywhere and you just can't avoid them. So again, as I'm saying, like in my head, I was already facing this uphill battle, which never makes things easier. It just makes things much, much, much harder. Worrying. What am I gonna do? I like, I really liked this cup. I really want to make something unique and great for them, but kind of my ACEs were taken away from me.
Raymond: 06:32 But to hear, you know, the just two people go out of their way to tell me how much they appreciate how I was handling myself. And the quality of the photos was just, was just so humbling because it reminded me how little wedding photography is about us. We get into wedding photography because we like photography and we want to take pictures and we want to make money. But the winning photography isn't about us at all. It's not about having the best lens. It's not about having the best camera. It's not even about, you know, paying $10 an hour at a park and you know it's a really shady parking lot and you're still unsure that your car is going to be there and then it's probably going to get towed at the end of their wedding. It's not about that. These are things that you can't worry about because a wedding is their day and they hired you. So the thing that you need to do is to check yourself at the door and do the best that you can and you need to know that it won't be perfect. It won't, you know, timelines won't match up. The light is going to be bad. Your cameras, autofocus might act up. You're never going to shoot a perfect wedding, but you can always shoot the best wedding that you can. And if you do that, then you will always be happy with your work.
Raymond: 08:06 Speaking of being happy, I want to give a huge, huge public shout out to Amanda vicars for her five star iTunes review. Amanda said, I was honestly very skeptical about how I could learn photography from a podcast. Since it's such a visual thing, but I walk away with new tips after each episode. The beginning photography podcast has been such a great resource to me as a new photographer and I'm so thankful to have found it. It's even great for binging hold episodes, which I've been doing a lot lately. So Amanda, I am so glad that you are actually going back and listening to those past episodes. I really tried to ask questions that are not topical. I try to get answers that will last the test of time and won't be obsolete after the new you know, Canon Sony, Nikon D a nine or seven marks seven comes out next week, you know, or whatever it is.
Raymond: 09:04 So, so, so thank you for not only listening to the show, Amanda, but for taking the time and learning or I guess doing what you're actually learning and using it. So Amanda, again, thank you for your review. I truly appreciate that. So this week I chat with a wedding photographer all about how to be a helpful second shooter for wedding photography. But I know that you all are going to get a ton out of. It's a, it's, it's a fun interview. It was a fun interview, but like always I save a portion of the interview that is focused more on the business and photography or the business of photography and making money with your camera for premium members. And this week premium members are going to learn how much a second shooter gets paid, how to make your first opportunity to second shoot and exactly where to find photographers willing to let you shoot with them and you know exactly what to say and what to look for in a contract to protect yourself and the main photographer when working together.
Raymond: 10:05 It is great stuff. In this interview and if you want to hear the entire interview, you can hear all the actionable business advice from today's guests and past guests by becoming a premium member. So head over to beginner photography, podcast.com and click the premium membership button at the top to sign up today. So that is it. With that. Let's go ahead and get on in to this interview with Misha Wynn. Today's guest is Misha when a luxury wedding photographer from Dallas, Texas. Today we are going to be talking about the relationship between a primary wedding photographer and the second shooter and how to be the best second shooter that you can be. Misha, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Misha Wynn: 10:55 Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.
Raymond: 10:57 Yeah, there is a, we kind of had a brief chat right before we started recording and I was telling you that in the beginning of photography podcast, Facebook group, I seem to get questions quite often about, you know, second shooting, kind of like what is the role of second shooting you know, how much would I expect to be paid? Do I edit the photos, you know, that I'm shooting. Yeah. So there's a lot of questions that I have today and I'm really excited to get into it with ya. But before we get into the second shooter side of things, let's start with you. Can you tell me how you got started in photography in the first place?
Misha Wynn: 11:34 Well, I originally started with wedding photography in 2008 and so I started wedding photography. I didn't start with any other time. And my background is in architecture, so that's what I went to school with. But I really fell in love with all sorts of types of art, drawing, photography. But I was sitting my desk one day, 2008 and said, you know, I want to start a business. You know, I want to start something that I love to do that, that's fun, that I'll actually enjoy. And you know, start looking through some magazines and bigger out chocolate tography and you know, I just thought, you know, when a show what in photography. And so one thing about me is once I start something, then it's really hard for me to stop until I, I, I've completely gotten it. So awesome that that's what I've done with wedding photography. And so you know, I took off running with it and it's, it's been a great journey.
Raymond: 12:30 Oh, very good. Very good. So when you first started, I kind of want to know about that, that first decision that you made, right? Because you thought I got to do something else. This isn't fulfilling it, you know, for me. So I got to find something. You found photography. Tell me about that first camera purchase that you made and when you went out and started taking those first photos, where they ever think that you had hoped for right away.
Misha Wynn: 12:56 No, not at all. No, I, I when it's a local camera store and bought like a beginner camera with the kit lens, cause I had the 18 to 55 lens and then it just had 200 lens. And so, you know, I didn't have a speed light or anything. And so I just went out and started taking pictures of friends and all of that. And what I noticed was my outdoor photos were fine, you know, they were good. But when I actually had my first job as a photographer you know, the ballroom was pretty dark and I went in and I think we did the wedding for free and I couldn't get my images sobriety. And so I just kind of went back to the drawing board, did a lot more research and then I bought eat whites and then, you know, eventually I upgraded.
Misha Wynn: 13:45 But the very first wedding idea, it was very scary because the images didn't come out the way that I thought that they would. And I didn't realize that I didn't have enough lighting. So, and you know, my camera wasn't really sufficient for [inaudible] room or a dark setting. So it took a lot of practice. You know, a lot of free sessions, a lot of dragging my kids out to different fittings to take pictures and friends. I remember one Christmas, I have a friend at the time, she had been married for several years and I convinced her to put her wedding dress back on December and let's go out to the park and take some photos. So I had a lot of, I guess I had a lot of support and so with a lot of research I was able to, and training, I was able to figure out what, what exactly I needed to, to get the look that I wanted.
Raymond: 14:38 Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So when you first got that camera, did you just throw it in Otto or did you know that a manual was the way to go or, or how was that progression for you?
Misha Wynn: 14:48 No, I threw it in, I threw it in auto and so, you know, I kept reading and kept researching and then I went to aperture priority and now work F from there for a little bit. And then, you know, it wasn't until I really upgraded my camera to where I really just like into manual when we started, you know, taking some classes and you know, just going to workshops and really learning how to work to get everything to work in manual.
Raymond: 15:19 Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. What was the hardest part, would you say? W when you went to go learn manual, what was the hardest part to realize?
Misha Wynn: 15:25 Well. you know, the, the tricky thing is I think some photographers struggle with is the ISO because you don't want the images to be grainy and that's what you hear. So you don't want to turn it, you know, put an ISO up too much because you don't want the images to be granny, but then your images are dark. And so it's kind of that scary, scary thing. That's the feeling that you have a not knowing exactly which settings to set. And so it was, it was, I was really scared. So about try. Yes. Yeah. So I think that was my biggest fear. So, but like I said, I did a lot of free sessions or take friends out in different settings and different rooms and test out what really worked. And one day maybe we'll look that I would want it.
Raymond: 16:15 Yeah. So now let me ask you a question. Now that you've been shooting since 2008 have you ever had a client or somebody who you've photographed look at your photos and be like, Whoa, these are, these are grainy.
Misha Wynn: 16:28 Yeah.
Raymond: 16:30 [Inaudible] Has no non photographer ever said that to you? No. No. It's these stories that we put in our head. Yeah. We get so worked up about these things and yet you know, it seems like the people who, who the photos are for you've never seen, never seem to notice, but it's a,
Misha Wynn: 16:50 You know, it seems like a lot of times, especially with weddings, they're more worried about the moment. So capturing the moment sometimes if the image isn't exactly perfect, they sometimes they love the moment.
Raymond: 17:00 Yeah. Yeah. You're, you're willing to what's it called? Have a suspended disbelief. Is that the, where, where you're able to look past something that isn't ideal because another part is preferable. That was a terrible definition. I apologize for that. So then talk to me a little bit about the moment side of things. Cause if you start it off and you're like, I'm going to get into weddings, moment is obviously very important. In fact, one thing I say on the podcast very often is that moment matters most, right? Yeah. And it's for that exact reason that you were just saying. I've never had anybody say to me like, no, I take that back. I've had one, I've had one bride say this one is a little too grainy. And in her defense it was definitely too grainy. But aside from that, nobody, nobody's ever said anything like that. So how do you I dunno train your eye or, or your brain to anticipate those potential moments?
Misha Wynn: 17:56 You know, honestly, I think it really goes back to you know, my architecture training in a lot with architecture, you have to be really particular and really critical of every little thing, every little piece of a building, every little aspect of a building. And so I think it comes from that terms. And so when it comes to second shooters, that's been something that's been a really hard to teach. But for me, it's more so sitting back, waiting for the moment, anticipating the moment. And the more weddings that I shoot, the more I, I know what's coming and what to anticipate.
Raymond: 18:34 Right, right. Yeah.
Misha Wynn: 18:36 So it's, it's not just shooting a bunch of random images where people just standing around it, it's capturing that one person response their emotion, you know, whatever is happening on their face. Just capturing that moment instead of just a group of five people just standing around.
Raymond: 18:55 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Misha Wynn: 18:56 So, so I think I intentionally scoped out moment versus just taking shots.
Raymond: 19:03 That's smart. That's smart. Now you said there that I'm training a second photographer to kind of see those moments is, is very difficult. And that we're definitely gonna be talking a lot about second shooters here. But in just one sentence, can you tell me what is the job description of a second shooter?
Misha Wynn: 19:24 You know, a second shooter is in my opinion, someone who can come in and provide supplemental images to mind. Maybe miss some of those images that I missed or missed some angles or the capture some angles that I may miss. I think that's the biggest importance of a second shooter when it comes to two weddings.
Raymond: 19:46 Yeah. So they are shooting, they're there with you on the wedding day as a second, a second set of eyes. Yes. Okay. Gotcha.
Misha Wynn: 19:56 Seeing that moment from a different perspective.
Raymond: 19:58 Right. So when it comes to second shooting, one thing that I anticipate people potentially asking is who is second shooting for and why not just go off and, and start on your own as being the main photographer?
Misha Wynn: 20:20 Well, you know, at the beginning I did do a lot of shooting by myself. And what I noticed was there was a lot of anxiety of not being able to capture every single thing. Every wedding is different. And you never know what you're gonna run into once you get there. So there is a little bit of comfort of having someone else there to, you know, capture a few other images or help you with the dress work or help with other aspects. That is the benefit of having a second shooter. And that makes sense.
Raymond: 20:49 No, it does. It does make sense. It does make sense. But I'm thinking if somebody is listening right now and they love photography, right, and they're thinking, I want to go off and I want to shoot weddings. Yeah. Now I'm a little I guess a little bit of insight on the, to the audience is that there is a lot of listeners who do have a nine to five job or, or maybe they don't have the time freedom or, or even the desire to go off and shoot weddings full time on their own. You know, maybe their job has excellent benefits, you know, whatever it is. Would you say that second shooting is perfect for them or a second shooting perfect for the person who one day wants to be the main photographer. Can you kind of walk me through that? I guess that wasn't really that great.
Misha Wynn: 21:37 No, I completely understand. I think it could be either. You know, I think for some people they don't like the business end. They just want to shoot, they don't want to deal with, you know, booking or accounting or any of that. They want to shoot it. Second shooting would be perfect for that person. Second shooting would also be perfect for someone who's wanting to learn the business and learn how to shoot a wedding to think [inaudible] work for, for each person. But I think that's something that you'd have to be honest about. You know exactly where, where you want to be. And I think you should be honest with the lead photographer about what your goals are.
Raymond: 22:14 Oh, interesting. As the second photographer. That makes sense. That makes sense. We're kind of in this industry where a lot of people since since artists Oh subjective were it's hard to be a, what's the right word? It's hard to be critical of your own work because being critical of your own work changes depending on how you, how you view it and I guess your confidence, if that makes sense. Yes. So I've met, you know, multiple photographers over the years. Some of them have very little technical skill, but high confidence and some of them have high technical skill but low confidence and they would rate their abilities as about equal. Right. So for you as the main photographer, what have been some of the biggest challenges of finding a second shooter?
Misha Wynn: 23:00 That's a good one. I'd say finding someone that is dependable is one of the biggest issues. When I looked for a second photographer, I'm looking for someone to use longterm. And there are certain reasons why I'm looking for someone to use long term. But I look for someone long term. It usually not someone just for runway or just for one event. So finding someone who's constantly gonna show up on time and have their equipment and have what they need and know what they need to do that, I think that is something that's very difficult and that's, that's been, they're very difficult to find. After that I would say finding someone whose shooting style matches mine. And that's something that I can teach or something that I can can work with. I just need them to be really dependable. Yeah. I need to know that, you know, if, if the bride is in one place and the groom is another place that they're gonna show up when they're supposed to. Yeah. Yeah, it's very important. After that, I'd say technical skill which is something that could be taught. The other thing that's really important for me is someone who's able to capture those moments that I want them to be able to capture.
Misha Wynn: 24:21 In a certain perspective. It's someone who understands how to
Speaker 4: 24:26 [Inaudible],
Misha Wynn: 24:27 You know, capture a shot. And so I think that can be a little challenging as well.
Raymond: 24:36 Challenging as far as finding a person who you are confident is able to find that or challenging in teaching somebody how to do that.
Misha Wynn: 24:48 Well, I think that's something that I think it's really difficult to teach them on how to compose a shot and to know what to shoot and how to shoot it. The thing with a second shooter is I'm paying you to come and work along with me. Yeah. So it's easier if I have someone going to mentoring with me or someone who's volunteering to come along and they can walk along and see exactly what I'm shooting versus someone that I'm paying and I have to mentor you at the same moment. So that, that is a challenge. And that's very difficult because if I'm mentoring you during that time, then you're capturing the image, the same images that I'm capturing. So which means I have to have another photographer that, that so second, another Jupiter. Yeah. So that's another thing for I guess aspiring second shooters to know is, you know, to be honest with what your skill level, if you know that you're, you're not very skilled, then maybe you go out and shadow with, maybe you gladness says help
Misha Wynn: 25:48 Versus offering to second shoot.
Raymond: 25:50 [Inaudible] So one of the questions that I've been asked multiple times is you know, how do I, how do I start second shooting? And it seems as though the way that most beginners go about it is they just send out emails to every, you know, they'll search for Dallas wedding photographer and whoever's on that first page, they're just going to send them out an email and say, Hey, can I go with you to a wedding and a and shoot with you? And inevitably they get next to no response. So when it comes to second shooters, are you actively looking for a second shooters or are they coming to you?
Misha Wynn: 26:27 I'm usually actively looking for them. Okay. So then follow up
Raymond: 26:31 Question. Where are you actively looking for them?
Misha Wynn: 26:33 Oh goodness. You know, I have Facebook groups. There's networking events that I go to and then also as look through Instagram and social media. If I run a cause of a photographer, images that have just really caught my eye, I may reach out to them and see if they're open to second shoot. But one thing I would say about the networking events and the Facebook group, I think those are very good oppor opportunities for a beginner to go in and network and meet people. And maybe invite a photographer out to lunch or out for coffee, just to talk. You know, if you're at a networking event, you run across a photographer and you talk and it seems to be some sort of, you know, chemistry there and you know, maybe ask them out for lunch or for coffee and just kind of pick their brain or ask questions. For me, I think it's, it's more important for a beginner to offer something before asking them. So if you offer to come out and help with the bags or lighting, I think you'll get a better response versus, you know, asking for someone to, to hire you. Sure. Yeah.
Raymond: 27:44 And mentor you while being offered something versus, you know, asking. Yeah, it's one of those it is tough. It is tough because you know, a lot of listeners have a family and they don't really want to give up weekends so much, but they do want to dip their toes in, in shooting weddings and being paid to shoot weddings is a, is a good reason or I don't know you know, reason to, to, to be away from the family for the weekend. And if, if you're not getting paid, then that does make it a little harder. But when it comes to you know, the point to where a photographer, you've reached out to a photographer or they've reached out to you and said like, Hey, can I just follow you to a wedding? They go to the wedding. That next step is bringing them on as a second shooter.
Raymond: 28:35 So that's when we get into the pay. So how do you pay a second shooter? Hey Raymond here. And if you're listening to this, you are listening to the free version of today's interview. If you want to hear more from today's guest about the business of photography, consider becoming a premium member every week. Guests answer questions about products, pricing packages, and so much more. It will help your growing photography business thrive. This is the next logical step to join head over to beginner photography, podcast.com and click the premium membership button at the top of the page. Yeah, so that leads me directly into this next question, which is does the second shooter edit their own photos or is it the job of the primary photographer?
Misha Wynn: 29:22 I think it's the job of the primary photographer because I would think that you would want the gallery of the images to look very cohesive, look very similar, have a very similar editing style. So for me, I would prefer to take Ryan images and edit them with my own.
Raymond: 29:37 So how do you handle that? How do you handle that at the a, at the end of at the end of a wedding day? Do they just hand over cards or do you prefer them upload photos for you?
Misha Wynn: 29:47 My preference is as is to take a car. I would give them a card. Hopefully they have a dual slot. And then I would take that card with me so that I'm in possession of the images at the end of the night. So, you know, I've been, I've had cases where the second photographer hadn't uploaded all of the photos, like some of them have gone missing. And you know,
Raymond: 30:13 Well, I, yeah, this is this is completely unrelated, but I worked with another photographer as a, as a favor. And she was from out of town, the main photographer, but she was traveling back because she's from here originally and she was shooting the wedding of a of a, of a friend who she grew up with and she was looking for a second who was here local and she knew me, so she reached out and asked if I would a second with her. And I said, yeah, absolutely. I was really excited to do so cause I hadn't shot with this photographer before. So at the end of the day I said, you know, do you want me to give you cards or just upload them? And she was just like, just upload them. I'll give you my Dropbox. All right. No, I don't remember if she gave me the Dropbox.
Raymond: 30:56 Oh no, no, no. I'm sorry. It was Google drive. It was Google track. So she just said upload them to Google drive, send me the link, I'll download them and then we'll be good. And I said, fantastic. So that's what I did. I came home, I took all the raw photos, I put them on Google drive. I had to pay for like, you know, a terabyte of storage, just a, just for a little bit to upload all these photos. Right. I sent her the link and then probably and then right away, you know, I got the response. Perfect. Thank you so much. Like this is great. I kept that link up for probably six months and then I was like, you know, it's already done. It's all good. Six months. I went ahead and deleted that folder off of the Google drive because I've had, it had been six months since the wedding kind of happened.
Raymond: 31:41 And two months after that I get an email that's like, Hey, where are those photos? I'm ready to edit that wedding and I can't get those photos. And that was my response. I was like, Oh no. Like this is a well they're gone. You know, I don't have those images anymore. Cause yeah. They were, and that's, that's, that's kinda the problem. So that just like a word to the wise for those listening, right. Like if you're ever in that situation, maybe just send out an email or a text before you delete all those photos. And, which is what I should've done. It's what I should've done. I just assumed that after six months that the photos had been downloaded, edited, delivered, and the no longer needed.
Misha Wynn: 32:23 Yes. And that's scary. And you know, some, I will give out my login for Dropbox and the photographer to upload so we won't have to go with that sharing folder thing. You know, and my, my second photographers will back up my images as well and it's in a separate, in a separate location. But giving them, my Dropbox has worked on, they can upload images. I don't have to worry about that. It was, I know that can be really, really scary and I feel like Dropbox is, if you have a business account, if you accidentally delete something, you can go back and get it for I believe a year. Oh wow. Wow. Yeah. They have it in as hidden deleted Oh section. And you can go back and, and retrieve deleted images.
Raymond: 33:06 That is a great feature for that exact reason, that exact reason.
Misha Wynn: 33:11 Yeah. That's something that's really good to know. Well one thing I didn't want to talk about was my personal experience with second photographers. I do have one photographer that I've been working with for about four years and then another photographer that I've been working with for about three years. I really like to use the same second photographer. There have been, you know, cases where I hadn't been feeling too well or, you know, my kids got sick or you know, a piece of equipment is failed and that second photographer, because we work so well together and we, and she knows exactly how I work, she can kind of fill in without any gaps in. So that has made things so much easier for me. Cause we never know when an emergency is going to happen. Right. You know, you never know when you know, I was in the middle of a wedding and my mirror got stuck because I couldn't.
Misha Wynn: 34:06 Yeah. Kara. And so, you know with working with some of you're very familiar with our camera can, you can, you can take over for a second and that person can shoot the images that you want them to shoot. But if you bring someone in every time that's new, when you're continuously working with these new people, then it's really, really hard to do that. Yeah. It's really, it's really a challenge. So I'm just over the the time period that I've become a wedding photographer, I've had issues and you know, things happen and sometimes the weddings don't go as planned. When you have someone that knows what the end goal, the end result is that it makes it a lot easier.
Raymond: 34:48 So speaking of that end result then, are you having a, are you teaching your second shooters what shots that they need to be looking out for? Do you have a shot list or is it we're going to go in, we're going to look for the best moments and whatever happens, happens.
Misha Wynn: 35:05 Well, as far as shot lists, I have shot lists as far as family shots mainly [inaudible] or unless it's something that the couples with the deplete, you know, request. Sure. but, but what I will do when I'm bringing on a second photographer, I will send them a gallery of images, a full gallery so that they understand the type of shots that I'm looking to capture. That has been very helpful. You know, if the central photographer actually looks, but that, that has been there, that has been very, very helpful. And, and at times when I'm with November until I will, you know, take them and say this is the shot that I would prefer, this is the angle that I would prefer and here's why. So yes, that is something that I go through, but at the beginning I will send over a gallery when we do that. They understand what,
Raymond: 35:55 So when you reached out to me and sending that first email, you sent me a Beyonce song lyric, can you share with me real quickly what that lyric was?
Misha Wynn: 36:05 Oh, it was goodness whatever she lacks. Yes. Whatever she lacks. She's right over my shoulder. And it's Beyonce and Jasmine. Yes. Yes.
Raymond: 36:16 So that right there, I think when we're talking about second shooting is solid, solid, solid, solid. But I think a question that many a second shooters might have is, and you kinda brought it up there, is if somebody's just shooting, if we're taking it literally directly over your shoulder, is the main photographer, are they just getting the same photos and if so, is that what you want or do you have them go and look for something different?
Misha Wynn: 36:43 No. Oh, we get different angles. We've been to, if there's an emergency, if something breaks, then that person can just step in and just, just, just take over seamlessly. So now we don't really get, you know, I would say as a team, we don't really get the same angles, the same shots. If I'm not there, then she knows exactly what shot that I would take.
Raymond: 37:02 Yeah. Has there ever been a situation where you specifically had to tell another photographer like, no, go over there and get this exact thing, this or this other thing because I'm right here shooting. You're kind of in the wrong spot. Like how do you deal with difficult situations with the second photographer if they're not doing what you had hoped that they, that they would be?
Misha Wynn: 37:23 Well, usually if I'm working with someone for the first time, I will tell them exactly where to stand and which lens I would prefer for them to view. And I'm hoping that I'm not being too bossy, so you know, and for a second shooter, I think that, you know, if you're being told what to do, I definitely don't take it personal. Right. Yeah, I will tell them where to go, what angle I would want them to shoot from. Usually the way I do it is I'll ask them to take a shot from this particular, you know, whatever particular angle and then I'll explain why I like that shot. So that's helpful.
Raymond: 37:58 Oh, gotcha. So that they know what the intention is behind the photo that you want them to take. I love it. Okay. I love that. That's very smart. I would just be like, go over there.
Misha Wynn: 38:08 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, some, sometimes, you know, I've had, I had one case where I would tell her what to get and she just wouldn't, you know, just kind of did her own thing. And so of course that's what I do. But you know, it didn't work. But there are some intentional shots that I do like and I do try to direct
Raymond: 38:31 [Inaudible]. So when it comes to having a shooter, as you just said, sometimes they don't work out. Sometimes they're not what it is that you're looking for. And other times you'll work with them for four plus years, you know? Yeah. So what would you say is the difference between a good second shooter and a great second shooter?
Misha Wynn: 38:50 Oh goodness. That's a good one. A good second shooter. We'll ask questions is not afraid to ask a question. A great, a great second shooter. We'll ask questions. A great second shooter, we'll go in and take charge, take the lead, take plenty of shots, even if she's unsure, if you need that shot, just to make sure that you have it and you want it. You know, a great second shooter. We'll take direction. Well when you, we asked, you know them to do something, they'll go do it. They don't mind doing it. You know, if you asked them to do something as simple as holding a light stand there, they're happy to do it. They're more of a go getter. That makes a great second shooter. Just an average second shooter I think would just kind of sit around and wait for you to tell them exactly what to do instead of just, you know, taking charge. You know a good second shooter would probably, I think all of mine are great.
Raymond: 39:54 Yeah. It's hard to talk about the ones that aren't good
Misha Wynn: 39:58 Would, you know, just just be someone who doesn't have an idea of what it is that you're looking for in that person who hasn't researched what you're looking for, hasn't asked for questions or didn't look at the gallery of images that you were needing or you know, too timid to step in and get that good shot, you know, or ask the groom to, you know, straighten his bow tie or that sort of thing. So the great, the great second shooter is going to be really on top of things. You know, you can build a bit of that passion. Yeah. Ready for it. Yeah. Yeah. And someone who isn't who's humble enough to take direction, you know, and also understand that they are working for you and this is, this is your client. You know, the other thing that I want to touch on is being respectful when it's going to be difficult as sometimes a family is difficult, but you have to realize it's not your wedding. So as a second shooter, you gotta come you and you gotta be respectful and a laugh, you know, don't take anything too serious. If the uncle's, you know, making weird jokes, it's kinda laugh it off and just keep doing your job. That's something that's very wrong.
Raymond: 41:08 Yeah. I feel like that's, that's probably what's holding me back. I think most when it comes to actively looking for a second shooter. And that's just because I've worked with, you know, various second shooters and some have been really good and then moved away to Amsterdam. And then some of them have not been so good. And then it just didn't work out. But the ones that aren't so good seem to not, I don't want to say they don't have the personality, but like you said, sometimes there's a situation where like, there's a little bit of family drama, you know, and they will try to comment on it like, Hey, what would, if we just, and it's like, Nope, this is not, this is not our place. And now you commenting is a reflection of me commenting on this and I don't want any part of this, you know, just smile and say, you know, whatever happens, happens, we'll try to make this work. This isn't my family. I'm not going to get into any of this drama. And I think that it's finding that line, which is really, really difficult for new photographers. You know what I mean? So that is a, I don't know, I guess I didn't have a question.
Misha Wynn: 42:17 Yeah, well, well, speaking of that one thing that I do like and that I tell the, you know, associates or new second cuter, you know, as you go in offer to be of some help, you know, the brides and they're getting dressed and they're struggling with the different, maybe offering to help or maybe tell her mom, her mother and she looks nice, you know, she looks pretty, you'll ever drive, you know, that sort of thing or be friendly. But definitely not be critical, you know, just don't say anything. Yeah. Just don't say anything, but definitely offer you know, compliment and encouragement. That's what weddings are about. And so that's what I encourage my second tutors to do. Even if it, even in a difficult situation, you know, sometimes we'll address it with humor instead of being overly critical. So there was this one case where you know, my second shooter, she had taken the, the grooms suits to take some photos of it and it was completely wrinkled. And so she called me over, she said, I'll do so. And so what I did was I went in and I made a joke. The guys were in the room.
Misha Wynn: 43:34 Yeah, well I owl would wrinkle with a, with a wrinkled tax. And so it just kind of looked at me. I said, what? I said, did you guys no
Misha Wynn: 43:45 Take your Texas to the dry cleaner? And they just looked at me, all of them. I said, well, let me check. So that tells me they're, you know, so I went and looked in, I would say most of their shirts were just wrinkled. They were just kind of thrown in the department bags and chill. I say, guys, I'm going to bring the steamer in. I need you guys to do this and this theme so you can look nice for the wedding. And so it was, it turned into a joke and then by the time I left the room, they were laughing. So you know, when I could've gone in and been really critical and I think that would've just headed home or she could've gone in and said something pretty mean, you know, which could have set the tone for the wedding.
Raymond: 44:26 Of course, of course. Yeah. And that is a fine line because as a paid professional, you do want to be helpful and you do want to make sure that they look their best. But you know, sometimes that doesn't mean helping you know, put up the alter, you know, like, yeah. Like, or like hanging extra flowers. Sometimes it, sometimes those are things that the family needs to take care of. Yeah. Because you do still have a job that you need to worry about. Now when it comes with the bride and the groom looking the best that they can look. Yeah. You know, I'm, I'm gonna make that same comment. Like, what are you guys doing here? Come on. We need a steam right here. Born and comes to, you know, helping put up I dunno. Flyers or banners or signs or something like that. I'm not, I'm not gonna offer, I'm not going to do that. No. Do that. So that's interesting. Yeah, I hadn't really thought about that, but it's really something that needs to be learned through experience and really can't be taught through a book I guess. Like help here, don't help here, do this thing, don't do that thing. That's right.
Misha Wynn: 45:24 You don't want to make anyone feel awkward or weird during our wedding. No. You know, it's already a stressful moment, honestly. When you go in there and you can, you know, tell a joke or offered to some sort of assistance or compliment or something to kind of ease the nerves and it makes it a little easier, you know? And also having a more calm demeanor versus a more arrogant demeanor. I've seen some wedding photographers that are really good wedding photographers, but they're very arrogant and they make the room tense any rooms. And so, you know, I feel like that's not our job. Our job is to be there, to be of assistance and to make sure you have great wedding photos.
Raymond: 46:05 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I love that. What do you think is w what do you think is a misconception or something that somebody would be surprised about to learn about? About specifically about being a, a second shooter? Hmm.
Misha Wynn: 46:25 I think some second shooters believe that they don't have to be assertive. I think that they feel that they can just kind of hide behind the lead shooter and just kinda do whatever that person does and, you know, not really take an insurance policy. Yeah. You know, and I think that's completely false. I think you know, both jobs were very important and I think it makes the lead shooter job very difficult if they have to babysit someone, constantly tell someone where to be and where to go and what to do. And I think that can be very challenging. So I, you know, and at the end of the day, if you, if you as a second shooter, if you take 2000 images, I mean, that's, you know,
Misha Wynn: 47:09 Not, you know, maybe not ideal, but you know, it's not horrible. But if you don't take the right images or if you don't take enough in, which is, I think that's what was case. Sure, sure. That's why I say go in, shoot away, do everything. She can just, you know, work your butt off and I think, okay, y'all
Raymond: 47:28 And let's have cake at the end of the day. Yeah. Yeah. I like that cake. Oh man. Man, last night I had a wedding in the cake. I don't know what was up with the cake, but it tasted just like, like peanut colada. I mean it was like coconut, it was pineapple. It was so delicious. And then at the end of the night, the couple were like, Oh, you know, did you eat, did you have cake? And I said, yeah, of course I had cake. And she was like, what, when did you have? And I said, I think it was pina colada flavored. And they both looked at me like, what are you talking about? And I was like, Oh, it was kind of coconutty little pineappley. And they both looked at each other. They had no idea like what I was talking about. So I don't know if the cake Baker like they asked it, they were like, do you mean pistachio?
Raymond: 48:05 And I said, no, this was [inaudible] definitely help cause guys so I don't have the cake. Baker screwed something up. But whatever it happened, it was amazing and there's no complaints. So I always that piece of cake and yeah. Yeah. You have to have to, I mean what other job lets you eat cake every day that you go to work. Yeah, no, no, not the best job in the world. Fantastic. Well Misha, I want to thank you so much for coming on and sharing everything that you did, obviously about second shooting even part of the business side of second shooting and how to get into that. Before I let you go, can you share with the listeners where they can find you online and just learn more about you and check out your photography?
Misha Wynn: 48:44 Yeah, I'm located in Dallas, but we travel everywhere for weddings. And my website is www dot lavish. She looks that calm. I can fell on Instagram at [inaudible]. She looks.com or [inaudible]. I'm also on Facebook and Twitter. I also have a mentoring program that you can read all about on my website. Again, www dot letter she looks like,
Raymond: 49:08 How do you find Twitter works for you as a wedding photographer? I've always been fascinated. Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't work. So why are you still there? I don't know. You know,
Misha Wynn: 49:20 Other and connect with other professionals. [inaudible] Twitter, you know, other than that, no benefit.
Raymond: 49:30 It's, I love Instagram. Instagram has been great spot.
Misha Wynn: 49:33 Yeah.
Raymond: 49:34 Awesome. Awesome. All right, well again, Meesha, thank you so much for sharing everything and I look forward to keeping up with you in the future and seeing everything that you got going on. So thank you again.
Misha Wynn: 49:43 Thanks.
Raymond: 49:45 Woo wee ma. That was jam packed full of great stuff. And my biggest takeaway was just simply how easy Misha made the, the whole thing. You know, we as photographers tend to I don't know, overcomplicate things and she broke it down. Super simple. I mean her tip of sending a new second shooter, a full gallery from another wedding, just to get a sense of the style and where they should be shooting from was just great stuff. Super simple. You know, no need to bring somebody in and have a long training day before a wedding day, you know? And that was just great. So I want to know what your biggest takeaway is from this interview with Misha. I've actually added her into the beginner photography podcast Facebook group and I would be willing to bet that you would love to hear from you and to hear you know, you saying thanks for coming on the show. So that is it for this week. I want you to join me next week when we talk about the future of editing and using artificial intelligence to speed up the editing process. It is good. So until then, get out, keep shooting, stay safe and focus on yourself. I love you all.
Outro: 51:05 If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.